Right-Wing Graciousness
Leave it to the fine posters at Free republic to show some class.
Mary Jo…….
May the Lord’s Will be done.
Prayers for his recovery and healthful retirement.
The last thread just got pulled. The mods were having to delete every other comment.
Ted Kennedy? Whos that?
The nicest thing I can think of right now is: “….”
the people of massachusetts have kept this guy on the public dole for too long.
he has been kept very comfortable at taxpayers expense.
To avoid suspension, I will not say what is on my mind.
I hope JC is the one who personally tosses him into the lowest level.
Do you hope Mary Jo gets the door?
And at Little Green Footballs:
never worked a day in his life, because of his family wealth, amassed by his father ran whiskey during Prohibition by running illegal liquor
What respect did Teddy show Mary-Jo after he drove off the bridge after having sex with her? I wish Ted Kennedy a speedy recovery but I do not feel inclined to give him any respect.
My mom just told me about this and the glee in her voice made me sick.
Karma can be a stern taskmaster.
i just hopes he’s ok
May 17th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
Me too, Directorpooh. I hope my mom hasn’t heard about this yet. She’s got a picture of the “trinity” (MLK, JFK, and RK) hanging in her dining room, and has been a supporter of Ted for decades.
This is a bummer. I glanced thru the posts on both sites, total lack of class shown by many of the commentors.
May 17th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
I met the gentleman on a USAir flight a few months back.
He looked less healthy than your choice of photo.
Hope for a speedy recovery.
May 17th, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Free Republic?
I used to read through there when I was in a mood to laugh at someone. Sometimes, you could laugh at ‘em. Sometimes though, you’d just shake your head and wonder who it was that mistreated them so as children to cause them to turn out that way as adults, as Freepers. The Freeper paradox mixing guns, religion and survivalist nonsense was odd.
Are the Freepers still waiting on Ronald Reagan’s second coming?
Senator Kennedy isn’t the first “lib” they’ve been disrespectful of and he won’t be the last. Try creating a fake press release announcing the medevac of “Alan Colmes” and see how “nice” they are.
May 17th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
The greatest man in that “trinity” of people you listed cheryl was MLK by far.
I don’t wish bad things on political enemies…I hope he recovers well. I do, however, wish late-term unborn children were afforded that same right to life that Kennedy is getting via medical treatment…
May 17th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
Right on, Flap. Look at my other post to see what I witnessed today. I’m so tired, man. I just got back from a nice drive to DC… I don’t even want to THINK about partial birth abortions right now. Absolutely despicable.
May 18th, 2008 at 12:54 am
I am very relieved that Teddy is going to be well. I was worried that it was going to to be the end of an era…an I don’t think I am ready for that just yet.
May 18th, 2008 at 2:54 am
It’s nice that you were able to find those two comments – most of the comments did display a lot more class than you see on Daily Kos when a conservative politician is ill. If you insist on judging all conservatives by a few who, admittedly, have no class, you have absolutely no room to object when conservatives refer to “you liberals.”
May 18th, 2008 at 4:00 am
Say, Alan, next time it is someone on the Right who goes to the hospital, or gets sick, or dies, would you mind if I send you the 100 or so disgusting comments I could farm from Left side of the Internet sites in less then 15 minutes? It would be really easy, and I have done it before. (Tom kinda beat me too it)
It is interesting that such nice and pleasant sites like the Huffington Post has to close their comments due to the vile filth that spews when someone like Jerry Falwell passes on.
Or, how about the lovely thoughts expressed by those loving liberals when Jenna Bush gets married? http://www.thepiratescove.us/2008/05/08/huffpo-commenters-love-drunken-little-slut-jennas-wedding/
You will always find rude and disgusting comments by both sides, Alan. The difference is, we smack down our folks, y’all on the left don’t.
PS: you can find some comments of mine, such as Hot Air, that wish Ted well.
May 18th, 2008 at 11:14 am
Tom & William~ You’re right, to an extent. It’s the extremists on both sides who often show a lack of grace, class, and understanding.
There are of course certain principles associated with the Left and the Right. So when someone on the Left violates the free speech of another, or attempts to restrict the religious practice of another, their actions stand in stark hypocrisy to what they’re supposed to stand for. When someone on the Right shows a lack of compassion, it is again a huge hypocritical contrast to the “family values” and “love thy neighbor” spirit supposed to be espoused by them. A lack of compassion just seems especially dirty when it’s coming from the Right. You feel me?
May 18th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
Truly a man how has been in office WAY TO LONG ! Hope he’s ok.
May 18th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
I do think that these sites should do a better job of deleting this garbage from its comments section. This goes for sites on the left and the right. I realize that it’s not logistically possible for sites like this one that don’t review all of the comments before they come in, but sites like Free Republic (and, yes, the Huffington Post too) really have no excuse because all of their commenters have to be registered users, and, in the case of the Huffington Post, all comments are reviewed by moderators before they are posted on the site.
At least now it looks like the mods are “watching the thread and more than happy to hand out suspensions” there, but yet they still allow comments like “May the Lord’s will be done” to stand.
To sum it up, I don’t fault sites like this one for not spending all day policing the comments section – I realize that it’s a lot of work, especially to renew them one-by-one as HuffPo does. But sites that hire moderating staffs really have no excuse. Yet it still seems to happen anyway….
May 18th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
I wonder how many bank roberies there were using a teddy mask??
just a thought.
May 18th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
The addage about kicking someone when they are down doesn’t seem to apply to the haters. Surely Ted Kennedy has made more than one mistake in his life but then who among us has not? He has been proven to be one of the country’s most successful legislators who while clearly quite liberal often steps accross the aisle to accomplish difficult tasks. Let us all convey positive good wishes for speedy recovery to good health. And Cheryl…ain’t no suck medical procedure as “partial birth abortion”. The poor women who must make a choice regarding late term abortions are faced with terribly conflicting choices, one hardly better than the other. I’ve never seem one be cheerful about it. They deserve the privacy of their conscience and the counsel of their physicians, family and spiritual guides as the proper choice to render their decision. The rest of us have no business whatsoever interfering in their lives. Control your own body and mind…and let them so the same.
May 18th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
First of all, Spyglass I’m PRO-CHOICE. Only for the reason that no one can tell another woman what to do with her body. And I credit Alan Colmes’s RED, WHITE, & LIBERAL for changing my mind on that.
PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTION is a REALITY, so what the HELL are you talking about? You’ve never seen one cheerful about it? What, do you perform abortions? If so, then MAYBE I’ll give that statement more credit. You can hardly speak for all women who have chosen an abortion.
I KNOW it’s a hard choice. I can’t remember how Alan stated it in his book, but I do remember the moment where I read what he wrote and thought- I’ll be damned if I let someone tell me what to do with my body, and knowing that about me is what makes me Pro-Choice now. I’d rather see someone give the kid up for adoption than kill their baby b/c they can’t handle the emotional or financial stress. I don’t understand how it can be looked at as a clump of cells vs a living thing.
A baby’s heart starts to beat at about 5 weeks. I know this b/c when I found myself pregnant by my romeo turned deadbeat ex-boyfriend, I struggled with whether or not to abort the baby. Furthermore, I have a health condition called Pseudo-tumor Cerebri, and gaining weight with that condition increases the tumor-like symptoms. So I don’t need to be preached to about how hard the decision is. Dealing with my kid’s dad and his parents has been a living fucking nightmare. Lauryn Hill says it best in her song for her son, called Zion: “Though this crazy circumstance, I knew his life deserved a chance… How beautiful if nothing more, than to wait at Zion’s door, I’ve never been in love like this before.” That’s the reality. I had a living person growing inside me, I’ve had stress after unbelievable stress (in fact, I was under so much stress when I was pregnant that my son was born 6 weeks early), but every moment is WORTH IT b/c I have my kid.
So don’t PREACH TO ME, You’re preaching to the wrong person.
May 18th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
AND I had gestational diabetes. All sorts of shit was going wrong with my body, but I value life.
You don’t even want to go down this road with me.
No such thing as partial-birth abortion. You’re crazy.
Partial birth abortion:
Alternately known as “dilation and extraction,” or D&X, and “intact D&E,” it involves removing the fetus intact by dilating a pregnant woman’s cervix, then pulling the entire body out through the birth canal.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5168163
May 18th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
See, I don’t get the pro-choice and “my body” position, honestly. Past the age of viability it seems very illogical. Besides, the baby is an intrinsic, separate being who *should* have basic human rights.
Should I be legally allowed to terminate the lives of my young children if they are living in “my house”? I mean, they are draining my resources, under my complete control, and perhaps they are a drag on my life. I could say, “It is a difficult decision on whether I should be able to terminate my young children, but it is MINE and MINE alone. I don’t want the government interfering with this decision.”
Do you think a judge would buy that? Women when faced with a unplanned pregnancy have an exceptionally difficult time. I don’t think that justifies keeping late-term abortion legal, though. It has nothing to do with personal belief or religion: it’s a human rights issue.
Now, earlier term abortion before like 24 weeks, is a little more murky. I am still against it but I think it’s harder to say that should be completely banned. The whole “mass of tissue vs. human being” argument has some merit, I guess. After 24 weeks, it’s infanticide. I don’t understand how anyone could think it should be legal.
Ron Paul, an OB/Gyn, is for banning abortion and said there’s no reason medically for an abortion that could not instead be turned into early delivery.
May 18th, 2008 at 8:26 pm
Wait, I actually think Ron Paul is for overturning Roe v. Wade and sending it to states but believe states should ban it…something like that.
May 18th, 2008 at 8:28 pm
Not sure how this turned into an abortion debate, but I’m pro-life. Sorry if that offends you or makes me not a “real” liberal.
http://democratsforlife.org/
May 18th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
Michael, LOL! It’s b/c of something someone said to me, I responded to it, and then everyone who wanted to chime in did, I guess.
May 19th, 2008 at 12:03 am
Ceryl flames again
May 19th, 2008 at 10:26 am
You know what, Budda- I’ve left you online, but you have once again proved that you’re an ignorant son of a bitch.
I didn’t start the abortion debate, Flap did. And who the hell cares that he did? If people want to talk about it they will, if they don’t they won’t.
You’re a fucking bastard.
Flap said:
I don’t wish bad things on political enemies…I hope he recovers well. I do, however, wish late-term unborn children were afforded that same right to life that Kennedy is getting via medical treatment…
And he had every right to say so. No one gave a shit, and no one else gave a shit that I responded.
May 19th, 2008 at 10:52 am
I meant I’ve left you “alone”. You seem to just want to start some shit.
May 19th, 2008 at 11:23 am
Heh, I will start an abortion debate whenever possible, because, as Alan knows, everything is somehow about abortion. ;)
That’s a good organization, Michael. I think if more of the Democratic party turned pro-life or at least became pro-life friendly, a lot of Republicans would give them a second look. I probably wouldn’t, but I’m pretty right-wing. For me, the abortion issue blinds me to pretty much everything Democrats say.
“Oh, late-term baby killing is a right? Well, can’t really listen to much else you say as a party. War, taxes, government, social issues are all irrelevant if we cannot protect the most innocent among us.”
Woo…Budda really got under your skin Cheryl…I will have to watch what I say to you. :)
May 19th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Flap~ Budda likes to bitch whenever we, in his opinion, go off topic. You were actually the first one to respond to him when he pulled that crap last week. http://liberalland.com/2008/05/10/can-you-commit-adultery-and-still-be-a-good-person/#comments
I’m not your boss or anyone else’s, people can say what they want, BUT if they get rude and disrespectful I’ll respond in kind. WHO CARES that you brought up abortion? Like I said, those who wanted to respond to it did. Budda just tried to get another dig in there without paying attention to who brought the subject up.
Speaking of “off-topic”, where did John David Prince and Frank Dogood go?
May 19th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Flap~ Also, I agree with your comment to Michael. In college, I was very anti-Democrat b/c of the abortion issue alone!
May 19th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Cheryl is correct that the medical (not political) term is D&E. It is rarely done primarily because of direct high risk to the life of the mother. It is surely not a pretty procedure or ever to be undertaken casually. As a long time physician administrator I have been involved with multiple emotional wars between sides on this issue. I hate abortion or that it is ever necessary at any stage (and have two adopted children as well), but I recognize that there are some circumstances where the choice is made by a woman for reasons she percieves are correct or when medical issues threaten her life. In that case, surely all alternatives should be considered by the woman given unbiased advise (Ron Paul is clearly not unbiased). The woman deciding answers only to her own belief system…not mine, yours, or anyone else…and that is how I believe it should be. Those who suggest Kennedy should suffer because he favors a conditional right to choose for women believe their own belief system trumps all others. Good for you for raising your child and standing for its life. For that you won’t be sorry.
May 19th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Flap:
Gotta love those conservative values -
Save the fetus,
Kill the child
May 19th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
The chicken or the egg. For me it’s the chicken. My concern is with the BORN child and not so much the fetus. I’ve debated Flap on abortion before and the conclusion was… we disagree. Same as all the other abortion debates I’ve had over the last few decades.
I’m pro-choice and that’s the way it goes. And I don’t need anyone’s permission or approval on whether or not to have one. It’s not debatable with me. It’s not anyones business. And I’ll be damned if any stranger, blogger, my next door neighbor or someone in congress is going to tell me what to do about a medical decision.
If Roe vs. Wade is ever overturned, it’ll go back to the states. I live in NYC so abortion will stay legal. So this issue is pretty much moot for me personally.
Many states will keep abortion legal. Which means it will be the poor women in red states who will go for back alley abortions and either go through horrendous experiences or die. The middle class and rich will always be able to do something about it.
As Alan has said, “if you don’t like abortion, then don’t have one.”
May 19th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
I’m seriously pissed right now because I just spent about 15 minutes typing a detailed response and it didn’t show up!
May 19th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
I could say, “I’ll be damned if any stranger, blogger, next door neighbor is going to interfere with me terminating the lives of MY young children.” Epiphany, how is late-term abortion any different then removing a baby from a crib and sucking his/her brains out? If I have a baby, it’s MY baby. Can’t I kill MY baby?
I just don’t get it…it’s not logical. Epiphany, you are obviously very intelligent but I still can’t get my mind around it. Anything goes because the baby is growing inside of you? Again, can I kill my young children because they are 100% dependent on me? Why should I be prosecuted, using the logic of people who condone late-term abortion? It’s substantively not different.
Early-term abortion is debatable, granted. 90% of abortions are early term. I still think it’s horrendous but I can see it being a grey area. Late-term abortion is terminating a human life. Anyone who disagrees with that, to me, is ignorant or intellectually dishonest. Some of us might WANT killing to be legal peripartum. That’s fine. But I personally don’t think killing young children is something our society should condone or keep legal. Again, it’s not a “preference” issue, it’s basic human rights. Can’t we agree that late-term abortion should be banned past the age of viability? Is that such a stretch?
Epiphany, should postpartum abortions of premature babies be allowed? If your baby is in the NICU and is doing poorly, shouldn’t you be able to say to the neonatologist: “Hey, Dr. Happy, remove my baby’s brain!” The baby *would have* been the in womb if he/she was not premature, right? Does the womb somehow grant immunity to the act of terminating human lives?
I could say: “If you don’t like murder, then don’t murder.” But I won’t infringe on Ted Bundy’s right to murder, because that’s none of my business!
May 19th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
Michael, save the text in Notepad and cut and paste…much easier. :D
May 19th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
TDro:
Gotta love those liberal values, save the guilty murderers from killing via capital punishment but kill innocent unborn children on the whim of a mother and her doctor! :)
May 19th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Ohhhhhhh I’m so tired of this subject. It isn’t because of you Flap that I feel this way, nothing to do with you as I did post a response to the subject at hand. I’m just burnt out on the issue. :)
Ok. Your children are born. They are individual, fully formed, viable, separate human beings. I understand that you see a fetus as a child as well. I do not. I see it as a POTENTIAL child. It is a fetus, and it has not yet become a fully formed human being or baby. You see it your way and I see it my way. When a miscarriage occurs, do people have a funeral? No they do not.
As far as late term abortions are concerned, personally I think that should only be performed to save the life of the mother. I have read that most are. Sometimes it occurs because the child’s brain or spine is on the outside of the body. In those cases that should be left up to the discretion of the doctor.
Probably the reason for why late term abortions aren’t banned aside from the reasons I mentioned in which I think it is justifiable and necessary, is because that would open the floodgates for ALL abortion being banned. Most pro-life people want all abortion banned; they are not willing to be reasonable about it. Some even believe that abortion should be prohibited even in the case of incest or rape. That I do not understand for the life of me.
I’m not a lawyer, but I’ve heard legal experst talk about the possiblility in which, if late term abortion is banned that would set a judicial precident for all abortion being banned. Something like that. So most will not even give an inch even on something like that.
In other words if you give legal rights to a fetus at 8 months, then some would argue, why not extend those rights to a fetus at 3 months. Or 1 week. And so on. It’s a tricky thing legally. I don’t see either side though, becoming reasonable about it anytime soon.
May 19th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Abortion does not happen on the whim of a woman and her doctor. There is no whim involved for most women. It just isn’t like that. For some maybe, but not for the majority.
And if you’re pro-life then the lives of men or women who are convicted murderers should be important to you too. How can you have one without the other? It is very hypocritical to be pro-life AND pro-death at the same time. These people are not fetus’, they are born living human beings.
In addition to that, some of those convicted murderers on death row have been proven to be innocent through DNA. Why would you want to take the chance of an innocent inmate being put to death?
May 19th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
Yay! Now that you guys have both taken extremely partisan positions on the issue, maybe I’ll look like I’m presenting the “golden mean”. My position is, however, admittedly closer to flap’s.
As much as it pains me to disagree with Alan, the logic in “if you don’t like abortion, don’t get one” is inherently flawed. It’s the same logic that the pro-slavery activists used during the Civil War: “If you don’t like slavery, don’t buy slaves.” Also, by that logic I could say, “If you don’t like theft, then don’t steal anything. Just don’t tell me what to do.”
May 19th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Ok, so I kept trying to post the whole comment and it didn’t work, so now I’m trying to break it up into smaller comments. It worked for the first part but now it’s not working….:/
May 19th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Spyglass~ sometimes I am sort of sorry… like today, when Tobias wouldn’t take his nap… and kept jumping on the bed, and then when I got him to lie down he kept MOVING… lol. I just dropped him off at my dad’s so I get a break.
TDro~ LOL
Flap~ LOL
E~ I hear you woman, I hear you. The only things I want to say on the “potential” human being aspect are that 1.) once the heart is beating, how can we continue to look at it as “potential”? 2.) I had my first ultrasound at 9 weeks. Tobias looked like a big oval with 4 stubs sticking out, but the whole shape looked like a gummy bear to me! Anyway, we all have very valid points on the issue. I don’t think that many people take it lightly. I’m not trying to change your mind, just adding to what you said.
Michael~ You poor baby! You prob had too many links, or it was too long (but most likely too many links). Next time, hit the back browser a couple of times. That works with me. Also, try using a Mozilla Firefox browser.
May 19th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
Oh, the thing that was funny about the gummy bear look is because of the way he was floating around, and then started wriggling his limbs like an octopus or something. It was hilarious.
May 19th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
I don’t think it was too long because I tried breaking it up into small comments and that didn’t work either….it’s weird. I don’t even know if this one will show up.
I actually did try using Firefox to post it, but that didn’t work either. Besides, I’m perfectly happy with Safari (http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/safari.html), but thanks for the tip :).
May 19th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
Oh well, I give up, haha. I blame wordpress, and I’ll keep that in mind when choosing a blogging software
May 19th, 2008 at 5:32 pm
“If you don’t like slavery, don’t buy slaves.” Also, by that logic I could say, “If you don’t like theft, then don’t steal anything. Just don’t tell me what to do.”
by Michael May 19, 2008 at 5:18 pm
There is a huge difference Michael. Slaves were separate living human beings. Same thing with stealing from another person.
We’re talking about something that occurs INSIDE MY BODY! And that territory is mine alone. We’re not talking about property you own, not talking about inanimate objects or anyting else.
NO one has the right to tell me that I MUST give birth. If I lose that right I lose everything.
The right to control my mind and body.
And no one will ever take that right away from me.
May 19th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
There are so many situations where abortion is completely unnecessary. Under current policies it’s perfectly legal to use abortion as a form of birth control. I understand the “it’s my body” argument to an extent, but what about the “it’s your own fault” argument? 98% of women seeking abortions are pregnant as a result of their own actions. Should they be allowed to terminate a potential human life just because they don’t feel they can take care of the child? There are so many other options that don’t have to involve abortion, such as adoption. The government even offers some services for single parents should the mother decide to keep the baby.
I’m not a radical on the issue though. I do believe that there should be exceptions for the health of the mother, and cases of rape and incest. I think that current true human life (the mother) takes priority over a potential human life (the fetus) and that in that case abortion is certainly acceptable, and in my opinion, necessary. The “it’s my body” issue comes into play with the rape/incest situation. This is one situation where it clearly is not the woman’s fault that she is pregnant and should have the choice whether or not to go through with the pregnancy.
As far as embryonic stem cell research goes, I support it. I just don’t understand the “pro-life” logic in saying that embryos left over from invitro fertilization should be allowed to be discarded rather than used to find cures for terrible debilitating diseases. Research seems a lot more “pro-life” to me.
And, unlike flap and most conservative pro-lifers, I also oppose the death penalty.
May 19th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
Yes! IT finally worked, I just had to take the links out of the comment, so unfortunately I can’t post the sites where I found some of those stats.
May 19th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
Flap said: “That’s a good organization, Michael. I think if more of the Democratic party turned pro-life or at least became pro-life friendly, a lot of Republicans would give them a second look. I probably wouldn’t, but I’m pretty right-wing. For me, the abortion issue blinds me to pretty much everything Democrats say.”
—————————-
That’s a very minor reason as to why I am supporting Barack Obama. I realize that he is fiercely pro-choice and I disagree with him very much on the issue. But he is at least, as you say, “pro-life friendly”. In his book, the Audacity of Hope, I remember reading a passage where he was lamenting how partisan and cult-like our political system has become, including the treatment of Democrats that question abortion. I know where he stands and I know that I don’t agree. Fine. I agree with him on pretty much everything else, so I’m not going to jump ship to McCain over it. At least I know that he’s willing to listen to people like me and not just write us off, and I hope that if/when the idealistic goal of less partisan politics becomes a reality, we can have a real, thought out debate about abortion that isn’t so partisan.
May 19th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
How is “inside my body” different from “inside my house”? Children, especially when young, cost a lot of money to raise and are YOUR responsibility (especially as a single mom). Shouldn’t you be able to kill a 1 year old without the government trying to force its morality on you? I still think it’s illogical. Again, I’m talking late-term, when there’s a fully-formed human being in there.
Michael, I am willing to concede the death penalty and trade it for late-term abortion. I’m not a hardcore pro-death penalty person. I do deviate with you a bit…why should an innocent baby created by rape/incest be punished with death? Even the esteemed Sean Hannity allows for that exception, and I don’t understand it. Would you agree that, if a woman who is raped decides to have the baby and then changes her mind, that she could kill the child? I think it’s illogical. 24+ week unborn baby termination is unnecessary, barbaric, inhuman, and should be banned completely.
Stem cell research…I am ambivalent about that. But I do think we can’t just assume that an embryo is not human life. The ends don’t necessarily justify the means even for medical research.
The death penalty has flaws, no doubt. The term “pro-life” is in the context of unborn children. I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with putting someone to death who has committed a violent crime such as rape or murder. That’s debatable, though, and I’m not a hardcore adherent to the death penalty.
“There is a huge difference Michael. Slaves were separate living human beings. Same thing with stealing from another person.” A late-term unborn child is a SEPARATE living human being who happens to be residing in the womb!! :D
May 19th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
Michael, I hate to be a one-issue voter, but stuff like this is so important that I put it above all else. But I understand your perspective.
To be honest, abortion will be available in some form somewhere in the United States for the foreseeable future. Even if Roe is overturned it will be available in at least half the country. It’s almost a moot point, which perturbs me but there’s nothing I can do. :D
May 19th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
“I do deviate with you a bit…why should an innocent baby created by rape/incest be punished with death? Even the esteemed Sean Hannity allows for that exception, and I don’t understand it.”
————————–
Well, this is one of those situations where there’s enough of a moral gray area to offer the choice. I’m not saying that it would be MY choice. I can’t even really speculate about it because I’m not a woman. My gut tells me that you’re correct in that the baby isn’t responsible and deserves to live.
But I think for the purpose of having the realistic chance of passing some pro-life legislation and for the fact that’s it’s debatable which is worse: forcing a woman to carry a child that was conceived through no fault of her own, or aborting the pregnancy. The premise here is that the pregnancy should never have happened. It came about in an immoral way…..still, my personal gut feeling say that it’s still not right to abort the child. But that’s a situation where it’s really not my business.
May 19th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
“Michael, I hate to be a one-issue voter, but stuff like this is so important that I put it above all else. But I understand your perspective.”
————
Well, as a liberal and a pro-lifer, I’m more worried about the death and destruction going on in Iraq and the fact that we’re polluting the environment to the point where there can be some serious climate problems that can cause mass displacement and unfortunately probably many deaths. I guess that it’s a priority issue for me. “The fierce urgency of now” as Dr. King put it. Yes abortion is an issue for me, but there are more important issues in the world that need to be addressed right now, at least from my perspective. And to be quite honest, I doubt that McCain would get anything meaningful accomplished for the pro-life movement anyway.
May 19th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
…and to his credit, McCain has a better record than most Republicans on the environment. I still think that Barack Obama would take on the matter more aggressively and with a greater sense of urgency, however.
May 19th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
Michael~ I’ll read this tonight and offer my twenty cents :-D
May 19th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
I’m glad you finally got it to work!
May 19th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
As I said before I’m pretty burnt out on this issue but here I go again…
Flap said: “How is “inside my body” different from “inside my house”?”
So you are equating the inside of my body as the same thing as the inside of a house??? If so would you also equate a burgler breaking into your house as the same thing as someone raping my body?
Good God I hope you’re not. A house is not a living thing. I am. Please have as much respect for me and my body that you would have for a fetus.
Sorry Flap, but that was a very silly comment to make with all due respect.
May 19th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
Michael said: “Should they be allowed to terminate a potential human life just because they don’t feel they can take care of the child?”
First of all, I don’t need for you to “allow” me to do a damn thing. And my answer is yes, and it doesn’t matter whether you approve or not. I don’t answer to you. Second women are “allowed” legally by law to do so in the first place. So that’s that.
I’m sorry but the arrogant attitude of pro-lifers to tell me how to conduct my life and medical decisions is absolutely appalling to me.
I get that you’re against abortion. But please get this. I don’t care. Comprende?
May 19th, 2008 at 7:57 pm
Flap said: “I do deviate with you a bit…why should an innocent baby created by rape/incest be punished with death?”
So if it were up to you, you would force a 14 year old girl raped by her father to give birth to her rapist’s/father’s child?
How incredibly sickening and inhuman. You must be made of stone.
People like you unfortunately are exactly why there can be no compromise on abortion. Because in the end, you would give more importance to the fetus over the life and welfare of a living human child.
May 19th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Epiphany, calm down. I’m trying to be reasonable. I believe in freedom as much as anybody. But I don’t believe in the freedom to terminate unborn children when it doesn’t have to happen. Just like I don’t believe in the right to steal a car or keep another human being in bondage. It’s just WRONG. Yes, the life of the mother takes priority over the fetus, I agree. However, I think that the fetus should have the basic human right to LIVE if it doesn’t HAVE to die. Why couldn’t you put your baby up for adoption rather than aborting it? And please don’t take this so personally. I appreciate your posts and your positions.
May 19th, 2008 at 8:28 pm
Stop it you two! You’re prob not old enough to be my parents, but I see both of you as “older voices of wisdom”. This is like watching my mom and dad fight. TRAGEDY!!! ha ha lol
4 real tho, you’re both right… I disagree with how E views the “fetus” as not an unborn “child”, but we have to remember that everyone approaches this from a different religious/philosophical view point. That’s why you’re both right.
May 19th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
Cheryl, I hate to put a damper on your “voice of wisdom” view of me, but I’m younger than you are ;)
May 19th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
Well, somehow this post deviated into a debate about abortion. I would actually like to address the post.
I am a liberal Democrat, but even I have to admit that I have see some pretty vile comments on sites like Daily Kos, Crooks and Liars, and Huffington Post. These people are “liberals” who forgot what the word liberal meant–someone who is a non-hater, who is enlightened and compassionate and who appreciates other points of view. The people who run those sites should be more careful about moderating their comment sections.
Yet this isn’t just a problem with left-wing blogs. I have seen nasty comments on Newsbusters, Free Republic, and Little Green Footballs, too.
Unfortunately, there are extremists on both the Right and Left who poison our political dialogue. I wish the political discourse in this country was calmer and more civilized.
May 19th, 2008 at 9:08 pm
Oh but I DO take this personally Michael. I take this VERY personally. When it comes down to the freedom to control my own body, it doesn’t GET more personal.
You say it’s wrong. Yes it’s wrong for YOU. Not for me. You say you believe in freedom. But not MY personal freedom as to whether or not I will create human life and see it thru full fruition.
I would never have a child and give it up for adoption. I have heard enough horror stories in my life from people I have known regarding adoption and adoptive parents to never allow that to happen. Never.
This is not a winning argument. Women have, since the beginning of time, made these decisions as to whether or not to bring forth life, whether men approve of it or not. This will continue until the end of time. You will never bend my will on this. I reject your version of what is moral in this case and you will not dictate my destiny or my ability to make my own decisions. It’s aa simple as that. So get used to it. Stop being a control freak. That’s how I see it.
I appreciate your posts too; I’m not upset or angry with you but as you can see I feel very strongly about this subject.
So there. :p
May 19th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
Oh that’s just great. You’re younger than Cheryl is???
Just what I need. Someone probably half my age telling me what to do.
MICHAEL GO TO YOUR ROOM!
May 19th, 2008 at 9:18 pm
Should 14 year olds get precedence over 2 year olds, Epiphany? 2 months old? Nearly born baby? Life is life, regardless of age, and purposeful killing of innocent human life is an absolute moral wrong, regardless of religion or personal beliefs. Human rights apply to all human beings, not just those who have been lucky enough to cross the threshold of the birth canal. If we can’t protect the absolute beginning of life, why protect anything else?
Until 1973, everyone understood how morally reprehensible abortion was. Now, it’s a “right.” Epiphany, do you honestly think I give a crap about what anyone does with their body? I want the government to stay out of people’s lives. However, the government DOES have the responsibility to protect its citizens. So if “someone’s body” purposeful terminates innocent human life, the government needs to make laws that prohibit that. If you pick up a gun and kill someone, that is wrong. If a doctor terminates your pregnancy (late-term specifically), that is wrong.
You would kill that baby who had no idea how it was conceived? What if the 14 year old girl wanted to have the child, then changed her mind after it was born because she didn’t like it? Could she then kill the child? Why would that be wrong?
It’s about possession: MY body, MY house, MY car, MY children. If you can kill a child in YOUR body, why not YOUR house? If I killed my child in my house, could I tell the police, “You have an arrogant attitude, trying to interfere with how I conduct my life and deal with MY children in MY house.” Biological connection in utero somehow is morally different?
How can liberals claim to be for human rights when they condone late-term abortion? Have you seen a late-term abortion? Watch one and tell me a human being is not being murdered. Tell me it’s a right. See why people who are against abortion are so passionate about it. Watch the video and be for abortion (at least late-term) and I could say the same thing to you: “How incredibly sickening and inhuman. You must be made of stone.”
“People like me” said earlier that 24 weeks and below is a grey area. I think that’s a pretty reasonable position. Conservatives may be wrong about a lot of issues, but banning late-term abortion is not one of them.
But…I still like you Epiphany. :) I’m sure Alan is excited that this thread turned into an abortion discussion…sorry, Alan. I can’t help it!
May 19th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
I’m about to put my non-aborted baby to bed, but I wanted to comment real quick…
E~ LMAO “go to your room!” PRICELESS
Michael~ I thought you alluded to being in Nam, that’s why I thought you were older than me. How old are you??? This completely changes my perception of you as a middle aged, graying black man, die hard Democrat. Lord, it’s one disillusion after another these days…
May 19th, 2008 at 9:28 pm
Guys, we don’t have to apologize for going off topic. The free exchange of ideas IS the topic.
May 19th, 2008 at 9:29 pm
No, Cheryl, I just tend to talk about abortion quite a bit, because I am passionate about it. I don’t know how closely Alan reads these comments…but if he does he’s probably like, “Why doesn’t that jackass stop bringing up abortion…” Although, Alan is too nice to call people jackasses…I would think.
I think on another thread Cheryl you mentioned chat…that would be nice…especially during his radio show. I’d love to chat with you guys in real time sometime.
May 19th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
Flap I appreciate your comments and I like you too. I think. lol. I appreciate that you take a civil tone when addressing me and don’t get into name calling.
But I couldn’t disagree with you more. I’m not sure your read or took in all that I said previously. I have already said that I only think late term abortions should be performed to save the life of the mother or if the child is horribly deformed. Did you read that?
But I can tell from your comments that early abortions are NOT a grey area with you. That you would like ALL abortions to be illegal. And you know that is not going to happen.
Yes the life and emotional well being of a 14 year old girl takes precedence over the fetus growing inside of her which is the result of being raped by her father. If that had happened to me when I was 14 and I was forced to give birth I would have killed myself. I think there is a severe lack of understanding and compassion on your part here about incest/rape. I can’t help you with that. I do find it shocking that you feel the way that you do.
And no, obviously not EVERYONE recognized how morally reprehensible abortion was, otherwise it would not have been fought for so hard for years, ultimately to become the law of the land in 1973. Not everyone thinks the way you do Flap.
I do not see this the way you do. You do not have to accept abortion but you do have to accept that this is my opinion and it’s not going to change.
May 19th, 2008 at 9:49 pm
By the way all, you might want to google info on the issue of 12 MILLION BORN CHILDREN who are sex slaves on this sorry planet. I first read about it in a very long article in the New York Times Sunday magazine.
That issue concerns me alot more. Not to mention the 9 million BORN children who have no health care in this country.
Chew on that for awhile.
May 19th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
Well, you couldn’t be any farther off Cheryl haha. I’m not sure where you got the Nam reference.
First off, I’m white. Second, I’m 17. Third, yes I’m a liberal with strongly held beliefs, but unfortunately I’m not old enough to technically BE a Democrat, hahaha. I do plan on joining the Democratic party when I can and I’m seriously considering volunteering for the Obama campaign in the fall. And, I’m sure it comes as no suprise to you that I’m planning on majoring in political science in college and either being a journalist or a politician.
And, on something completely unrelated, I think that if the 20% of Americans who think that the sun revolves around the earth can vote, I, as somebody who knows A LOT more than the average teen about politics, and as an individual old enough to pay taxes, think I ought to be able to as well :).
I was reluctant to reveal my age because I figured people like Epiphany would tell me to “go to my room”, but I really don’t give a damn anymore. If you’re going to write me off because of my age, then I won’t even look twice and your comments. I’m not here to make enemies or “outrage” anybody. I’m here to talk about politics because I’m passionate about it.
May 19th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
Allison wrote:
“I am a liberal Democrat, but even I have to admit that I have see some pretty vile comments on sites like Daily Kos, Crooks and Liars, and Huffington Post. These people are “liberals” who forgot what the word liberal meant–someone who is a non-hater, who is enlightened and compassionate and who appreciates other points of view. The people who run those sites should be more careful about moderating their comment sections.”
———–
You are absolutely right. One of the reasons that this is my favorite of the “liberal blogs” is that it doesn’t have that radical tone to it.
May 19th, 2008 at 10:08 pm
I had no idea how old you were Michael when I spent all that time debating you on abortion. Never-the-less I don’t need anyone of ANY age telling me how to live my life. Period.
The “ROOM” comment was of course a joke.
If you want to ignore my comments so be it.
May 19th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
OMG!!! We’ve got a BABY in the house, lol. Damn Michael, you can certainly hold your own. You’ve got loads of potential, buddy.
Crap. Now I feel like I need to avoid profanity.
The thing about going to your room was totally a joke.
It’s okay guys, we will all continue swimming in our liberal pool of love.
E~ as always, you’ve made some good points. I agree with a lot of it.
May 19th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
Epiphany: I know that the room comment was a joke, and no I won’t ignore your posts. AND, I think it’s important for you to know that I respect you position even though I disagree. Sorry for taking the “room” comment so seriously, I guess I’m just kind of sensitive about it…
Thanks for the complements Cheryl, I really appreciate it. I remember recently when you told me how smart I was I thought to myself “She thinks I’m 40″, haha. I didn’t think I deserved it at all.
May 19th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
“You’ve got loads of potential, buddy.”
Crap. Now I’m going to eternally be know as “buddy”, “sport” and “junior”, hahaha :D
May 19th, 2008 at 10:55 pm
That’s so funny. Good for you, though. I’ll try to refrain from the “buddy” endearments, but I can assure you that I’ll never call you “kid”. btw, I was a poli sci major, double minor in sociology and religion (b/c to me, those are the 3 most important aspects of everyone’s life). I got thru my sophomore year, but had to move home before finishing. Now I’m finishing school at a community college taking boring schmoring business classes.
May 19th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
It’s ok Michael. I feel very passionate about that issue precisely BECAUSE I am a woman. It is very personal to me.
We will have to agree to disagree as they say.
I do think it is wonderful that you are so involved in politics at such a young age.
I myself got involved when I was about 12. That’s a long time ago lol.
May 19th, 2008 at 11:46 pm
It’s no different than anything else. The idiots always come out and speak the loudest. This is not a the normal american speaking out. I cant stand a single view point of Teddy’s and think he has ruined the kennedy name after his three brother before him did so well for this country but I still wish him the best of health
May 20th, 2008 at 5:39 am
Actually, Epiphany, I DID say early abortions are a grey area (before the age of viability). Perhaps we kind of were arguing different things. What do define as “late term” by the way? Partial birth? 24+ weeks?
I have NO desire to control anyone’s life. Honestly…I sometimes think a lot of women think it is a man wanting to control women. I don’t want to interfere with your life decisions. The only problem is that a late-term unborn child is a human being and deserves protection. That’s my only stance. Earlier term abortions, while I personally think they are horrible, are harder to legally forbid I think. It’s harder to defend the rights of a tissue mass, albeit human. But the problem is many liberals will not give an inch on late-term abortions because they are worried about the “right” vanishing. If 24+ week abortions stopped and were outlawed, it would make people like me look more like extremists. This late term infanticide makes many liberals look like extremists.
Obviously situations where the baby has a condition like anencephaly (no brain) or something else incompatible with life probably warrant abortion, as well as “life of the mother.” Although, I don’t know how often that comes into play.
Okay, look, a child conceived through rape is not a great situation. Epiphany, what about the slavery analogy? What if I said, “The emotional well being of a white person takes precedence over a negro/slave/whatever. I find it shocking you believe the way you do!” We’re taking a group of people and dehumanizing them and removing their rights! If I had a daughter who was raped, do you think I could in good conscience tell her to kill the child? That complicates the situation, and certainly doesn’t solve anything.
Now, before 24 weeks it becomes more of a religious argument, although the case can be made that it’s killing as well.
Jeremiah 1:5 NASB “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you…”
If that’s not a biblical basis to be against abortion, I don’t know what is. Obviously non-Christians and non-Jews won’t go along with that.
And don’t sound so close-minded, Epiphany! You’re the liberal! I am still very pro-life but my view has moderated a bit. I am “open-minded” to other opinions. :) Late-term abortion seems to be a pretty clear-cut case, the rest is more difficult.
May 20th, 2008 at 3:11 pm
Flap said:
“Earlier term abortions, while I personally think they are horrible, are harder to legally forbid I think. It’s harder to defend the rights of a tissue mass, albeit human.”
I absolutely agree.
Flap also said:
“If I had a daughter who was raped, do you think I could in good conscience tell her to kill the child? That complicates the situation, and certainly doesn’t solve anything.”
Epiphany said before this:
“Yes the life and emotional well being of a 14 year old girl takes precedence over the fetus growing inside of her which is the result of being raped by her father. If that had happened to me when I was 14 and I was forced to give birth I would have killed myself. I think there is a severe lack of understanding and compassion on your part here about incest/rape.”
This is definitely something between the parents and the mother of the baby. Some victims of rape who later become pregnant still decide to keep their child… there’s no black and white answer to this particular issue of abortion.
Flap~ I want to chat live during the show, too.
May 20th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
I’ll tell you something else I think is unfair: a woman deciding to abort a baby, when the father of the baby really wants to keep the child.
Now, in order to keep us from going off on each other, let’s pretend that mother and father were both unaware of the pregnancy until mom was 16+ weeks. I think it’s really f’d up to abort a baby that the other parent truly wants.
May 20th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Cheryl…the issue of the father complicates it even more I think. Good point!
Like you said, what if the father doesn’t want the child but the mother does? Shouldn’t he be able to say, “I wanted you to have an abortion so I shouldn’t have to pay child support.” As long as abortion as a birth control method is legal, that argument holds a TON of merit. So the mother can CHOOSE to kill the baby, and he loses his son/daughter that he would have loved, or the reverse: she keeps it and he has to pay child support when he wanted an abortion. Some might argue that the mother should have that type of control. I would argue that he should ALWAYS have to pay child support and she doesn’t have the right to kill the child.
Rape is a difficult issue…I don’t mean to sound flippant about it at all. You could extend the “life of the mother” argument to include rape, definitely. I personally have a hard time justifying killing the unborn child even in that case…but it is very tough.
Abortion is a tough issue in some ways but many people get very aggravated about it, with good reason. I personally have held miscarried babies in my own two hands…I see the miraculous humanity there. I’ve seen graphic videos online of babies being torn limb from limb. It is very difficult to accept that we allow this to go on, especially late-term. I wonder what kind of an “enlightened society” we have evolved into!
May 21st, 2008 at 2:19 am
Has anyone else noticed what a “ME ME ME” issue abortion for the most part? It’s all about ME and MY body. I realize that personal freedom is extremely important but the line has to be drawn somewhere. We don’t allow people to walk into grocery stores and steal food. Is that limiting freedom? Sure, it is. But it’s common sense to not allow it.
Anyway, the whole mentality of the abortion issue doesn’t seem to fit into liberal ideology. The Democratic Party has always been all about protecting the most vulnerable, and in the case of those of us who are more fortunate, putter OTHERS before ourselves. I don’t see why an unborn child doesn’t deserve some basic human rights, just like everybody is entitled to good health care and to find a job that pays a living wage if they are able and willing to work.
May 22nd, 2008 at 1:50 pm
That’s b/c not all women see carrying a child as an honor. I mean, I can’t criticize another woman for how she sees it I guess… but I know that for me, it was an HONOR to incubate my little brat and bring his soul into this world. He was always a part of me, but I knew that he was his own person. To quote Lauryn Hill’s “Zion” again… “and I thank you for choosing me, to come through unto life to be a beautiful reflection of his grace”. (I listened to that song often when I was pregnant.)
May 22nd, 2008 at 5:31 pm