This is the man who shot two people on his neighbor’s property in Pasadena, TX, after a 911 operator told him not to take the law into his own hands. In fact, he was told repeatedly to stay inside and not start shooting. However, Horn couldn’t stop himself, but a grand jury decided not to go forward with the case. he’s been called a hero. Vigilante would be more like it. Here’s the audio.
There is no question in my mind that no one’s life is worth $2000 worth of jewelry and cash. But the persons who first need to hear and understand that are perpetrators of crimes. It isn’t of any value for me to think no one’s life is worth that if the person committing the crime thinks his life is worth less than $2000.
I don’t want to see anyone get the death penalty for a $200 burglary, but should they just get off scott free? I heard the tape, Horn yelled, ‘Move and you’re dead.’ He tried to hold them for the police, which is why he took his phone out to the confrontation. I think this would have never happened if a guy with a long criminal record hadn’t wanted to lengthen his record.
Our society needs to start caring more for the rights of VICTIMS than they do about the rights of CRIMINALS. Until that day arrives, I’d be glad to have Joe Horn for a neighbor. Let criminals be afraid.
Not just no but hell no he shouldn’t have. It is about time people stand up for themselves, take initiative, and show a little back bone.
Yeah, about John and Aaron White: the father probably shouldn’t have done what he did, waited for the cops, etc., but that assumes a LOT when you’ve got a mob of FIVE likely amoral mush-headed teenagers around your son. Did the father know for sure that his son would not be shot? Especially if his son was being *pursued*! Perhaps these teenage idiots were about to perpetrate a racial hate crime?
In this case and the Joe Horn case, these shooters are law-abiding citizens, are they not? We should be careful not to condemn this type of stuff too quickly.
I actually think the black dude was even more within his rights to shoot…he’s protecting his son on his property from delinquents who are following his son home. He probably should have fired a warning shot, etc., but again biiiig assumptions going on.
The black dude is named Mr. White? :-P
RC~ interesting that you brought that phone call up. I felt bad for the guy, bc I don’t think Alan understood the parallel the man was drawing. In a later call that night, the caller said something like “I’ll bet Horn would’ve been charged if he were black and the victims white”. Alan said he was probably right. So the two calls that night were basically the same.
The case of John and Aaron White is actually quite interesting. In their case, I’m not sure why they didn’t call the cops. Aaron was being pursued by the teenagers on his drive home, but they were exchanging cell phone calls… so why didn’t he use the cell to call for help?. When he got home, depending on how quickly he rushed into the door and what he was saying, I can actually understand his father rushing out with a gun.
Anyway, I’d google John and Aaron White for more info.
If one reviews today’s Houston Chronicle interview of Horn, you find a man at least troubled by his actions. He tries to convince himself what he did was out of fear…the tapes say otherwise. That he will suffer sleepless nights and eventually answer to a higher authority is the only tidbit of justice in this case.
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So we don’t have a right to defend our own property?
July 1st, 2008 at 12:35 am
ALAN IS A RIGHT-WINGER! HE SAID IT!
July 1st, 2008 at 12:36 am
flap~ didn’t you hear the audio? this guy was READY and EXCITED about shooting the burglars. He said, almost nonchalantly, “Well, here it goes, buddy,”… “You hear the shotgun clicking and I’m going.” (text from article Alan links to)
play the audio again, flap
July 1st, 2008 at 12:37 am
Well Flap, it was not his property.
July 1st, 2008 at 12:38 am
You were only kidding?! You’re actually a liberal, Alan?!
July 1st, 2008 at 12:38 am
If it was not his property, then it was probably wrong.
But if there were strange people on my property, and I had a gun, I’m not sure what I would do. It’s easy to have hindsight and say that he shouldn’t have done it.
July 1st, 2008 at 12:40 am
flap~ just play the damned audio again.
July 1st, 2008 at 12:42 am
RESIGN
July 1st, 2008 at 12:43 am
resign? is that a chess thing? i just think that you didn’t hear it properly when alan played it the first time. so you should listen to it again, that’s all.
July 1st, 2008 at 12:46 am
The dude even said “this is scary” and he said “I can’t take a chance on getting killed over this.”
What happens if these dudes were armed? His house could have been next! It’s so easy to say that he SHOULD have been more relaxed and SHOULD not have shot.
He probably should NOT have shot, but I think him being acquitted was correct.
July 1st, 2008 at 12:48 am
lol…Cheryl…a caller on the radio was trying to say “resign” and was pronouncing it “resignate” which isn’t a word.
I would never tell you to resign, Cheryl. :-P
July 1st, 2008 at 12:49 am
Jim Horn ENJOYED killing those people. Yeehaw.
July 1st, 2008 at 12:50 am
I think the fact that they’re illegals is irrelevant to this case (for or against it).
July 1st, 2008 at 12:50 am
Epiphany, you’re assuming that. He thought he was *defending* his property and his neighbor’s.
I don’t know about you, but if people are breaking into my neighbor’s house, and I have a gun (I don’t own a gun by the way), and I feel threatened, I might shoot them. Sorry! I guess that makes me evil!
July 1st, 2008 at 12:54 am
i’m in texas and i hate when this happens because we are all thown into the same barrel…i understand that deadly force CAN be used IN RARE CASES but this is not one of them
July 1st, 2008 at 12:55 am
flap. Listen to that tape. He is clearly enjoying himself. I’m not assuming anything. That is my opinion, you might hear something different.
If that happened to me, I would call the cops and wait for them. If they came though my door, only then would I personally do something about it with a gun if I had one.
I once saw a guy knifed on the street from my window in the middle of the night about 3AM. I called 911 immediately. Had I had a gun, no, I would not have shot him if there were no other people on the street. There weren’t. He was caught 10 minutes later 2 blocks away.
July 1st, 2008 at 1:02 am
“i’m not gonna let ‘em go, i’m not gonna let them get away with this shit… this is ridiculous… man this is scary, i can’t believe this is happening in this neighborhood… i’m bringin’ my shotgun with me, i swear to god… i’m not gonna let them get away with this… i can’t take a chance on getting killed over this, i’m gonna shoot, i’m gonna shoot… i don’t want to (shoot them) but if i go out there”
bottom line, the officer told his old ass to stay inside the house. if he stayed INSIDE the house, he wouldn’t have any reason to shoot. joe horn was adamant that he wouldn’t let them get away. he left the house bc he didn’t want them to get away, and he was only scared in the sense that he wanted to go after them, didn’t know if they were armed, but he was dead set on killing them.
LISTEN TO THE ENTIRE CLIP.
i can’t believe this man got away with this shit.
July 1st, 2008 at 1:04 am
epiphany, you must have just gotten through listening to the entire call as well. the officer said time and time again DON’T GO OUT OF THE HOUSE. if he was so damned scared, why’d he leave the house? he was told that an officer was on the way.
Alan~ you should really play this clip in it’s entirety on your show. i’ll bet you get different reactions from your listeners.
how the hell did this man get away with this?
oh… a jury of his fellow gun-totin’ peers.
July 1st, 2008 at 1:06 am
This guy purposely clicked(is that the word?) his gun over the phone so it could be heard. He said “Hear that”? He was proud of doing so as he were bragging about what he was going to do. He was itching to kill them. Was probably drooling while he did it. Sickening.
July 1st, 2008 at 1:14 am
Epiphany and Cheryl, this guy was not going out and targeting people…these people were near HIS house STEALING things.
I listened to the whole tape. I agree to an extent…he probably should NOT have shot. But it’s SO easy to ASSUME that he was enjoying himself or saying he should have just waited for the cops.
If you are scared, and you are unsure if those people have a gun/weapon, does that automatically mean you WAIT and allow those people to possibly break into your house NEXT and ambush you? He wanted to stop them before his life was in imminent danger.
I’m not saying he should have done it, but I don’t think it’s clear cut. He probably shouldn’t have…that’s as far as I can say.
July 1st, 2008 at 1:14 am
The only time a gun should been used is to protect your own life/property. In this case a video camera with Zoom would have done the trick. This man could have called on a cell phone and followed the two in his car.
July 1st, 2008 at 1:46 am
So if I see somebody breaking into my neighbor’s house, and I’m afraid this criminal might try to break into my house, then I should unlock my front door and run out of my house and confront the criminal and shoot the bastard while he’s preoccupied.
Well, hell, let’s just shoot everybody. Think of the money we’d save.
July 1st, 2008 at 2:02 am
RC, you’re joking but the answer may be YES…if you feel really threatened. Again, it’s so eaaaaaasy in retrospect to criticize this guy and call him a gun-happy nutcase but I don’t think it’s so simple.
Let’s say you’re in line at a bank, and the dude has a gun and is robbing the bank. You have a concealed weapons permit. Would you be within your rights to shoot the guy? Personally, I think you would. PERHAPS the guy would just take the money and leave and everything would be okay. But say he meets the police and takes hostages, for instance. He’s desperate, and you could be quickly in imminent danger.
Again, I’m not trying to say that this Joe Horn is a huge hero or he acted in a perfect manner. He probably should have stayed inside his house and just waited since he knew cops were on the way. He could have bunkered himself with a shotgun in a back room and waited there if he felt threatened. But that assumes a lot.
July 1st, 2008 at 2:11 am
lol, RC. you crack me up.
Flap~ i KIND OF see what you’re saying. but the thing is, horn never had to leave his house. EVER. he could’ve even stood by the door with a gun, waiting for them to come in, so he could then shoot on sight. he ran out of the house to pursue them, bc he was pissed that they were robbing his neighbor. note my earlier quote, where he says he can’t believe this is happening in his neighborhood. this really was vigilantism.
July 1st, 2008 at 2:18 am
burglary is wrong. i used to shoplift as a teen. i nursed my son til he was about 8 months old, then i supplemented with formula. he was on formula until he was a year old, or whatever the age is. anyway, there was a series of months while he was on formula that i was so damned broke i used to have to cut the formula with water. it pained me to know he wasn’t getting the full amount of vitamins and all that. i thought about shoplifting some formula, but didn’t.
i’m not justifying the burglars. but i think it should be noted that bc joe horn shot and killed these men, we’ll never know what their story was.
July 1st, 2008 at 2:20 am
I think shoplifting/stealing to feed your child or family is not necessarily wrong. It is illegal, but not necessarily morally wrong. As with the abortion issue, legality and morality can be completely different!
Whether or not Joe Horn *sounded* like he was scared, he did say “this is scary” and that he didn’t want to get “killed over this.” Was he lying? I think he was a little trigger happy, granted.
July 1st, 2008 at 2:49 am
All ya need is a good lawyer, hi OJ, having fun looking for Nicole and Ron’s killers?
July 1st, 2008 at 6:47 am
A plain clothes detective was parked in his car at the scene! The “Grand Jury” in Harris County consists of virtually all white conservative republicans who see shooting illegal immigrants as a favor to society. Joe Horn is adored by his bible thumping white neighbors who will defend their violating the ten commandments each sunday in Church. No body should excuse illegal immigrant burglers…but why have a criminal justice system at all when you have Joe Horn… police, prosecuter, judge jury and executioner all wrapped up into another warped Texan. These guys died for a crime which does not include execution on law books…but after all they were guilty of being Hispanic and of color in Pasadena…and Joe Horn is the Sheriff in that town! For shame! Sometimes its real hard being a Texan!
July 1st, 2008 at 10:52 am
Hello! This happened in Texas! Of course they let him off. It’s legal to shoot someone on your property in Texas. The jury probably figured he was close enough…
July 1st, 2008 at 11:12 am
Anticipating that you might be threatened is not the same as being threatened.
The problem with this case is it puts us on the slippery slope. If it’s okay to shoot and kill people who break into your neighbor’s house, what if someone breaks into your neighbor’s car? What if someone is stealing an energy bar from the local 7-11? What if the store clerk “feels threatened”?
A cop thinks a guy on the street is dealing crack. He orders the guy to put his hands up. The guy runs. Can the cop shoot him?
You’re standing in the bank. A guy pulls a gun to rob the place. You pull your concealed weapon and open fire. What if you miss the robber and kill the bank teller?
July 1st, 2008 at 1:17 pm
I agree with RC.
July 1st, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Intelectually I know this guy went over the line in shooting these ‘burglars’. It was wrong. However, deep down in that primal part of the brain a little grin appears, hard to justify but I think this verdict says something about our primal thoughts on ‘criminals’.
July 1st, 2008 at 3:19 pm
The phone call alone creates a prima facia case of premeditated murder. This was not self-defense. This was a “Vigilante” caught in the act. He called the police and 9-11. He was not in any danger himself. His property was not threatened. He took action into his own hands and he admitted to the operator, “I’m going to kill them.” What more do you need to prove premeditation? Only in Texas could this guy get away with it. If I were a clerk in a 7-11 and I took a gun for self-defense, I’d be brought up on charges and fired. This guy got away with murder and he shot two minorities. Imagine if this situation were reversed? This is not justice, it’s Texas Justice. Don’t Mess With Texas.
July 1st, 2008 at 3:37 pm
RC, you bring up good points. I would differentiate between a 7-11 and your house or the immediate vicinity you live in. “Home turf” is different. Joe Horn felt threatened, I believe…more than an anticipatory threat. I think it’s clear from the tape. Was he just performing for the operator when he said it was “scary” and that he didn’t want to get “killed over this”? I don’t think so. He was a little too trigger happy, perhaps.
Okay, a store clerk shouldn’t shoot someone who steals a candy bar, but if a store clerk is being robbed and shoots the robber is that wrong? Again, all this hindsight after the fact. How many robberies end up botched and people get killed?
Ideally, I think that if you KNEW that someone could not use deadly threat on you or someone else then it is WRONG to shoot them.
If I was standing in a bank, and I had a gun, and there was an armed robbery, it would be difficult not to try to neutralize that threat. What happens if I did nothing and multiple hostages that the bank robber took were killed? A war analogy: should we have not stopped the Nazis because we knew certain civilians would be killed? That would lead to greater death and destruction. It’s unfortunate that we even have to make decisions like this…I wish we could all just get along.
July 1st, 2008 at 3:42 pm
“He was not in any danger himself.”
Cecil, I don’t know if at the time you could have made that statement with any confidence. Only in hindsight can we see that he was not in any imminent danger.
And the fact that they were illegals or minorities or whatever is irrelevant. If a black dude shot a couple of white guys in a reverse scenario I would *hope* that he would be acquitted like this Horn guy and I would feel the EXACT same way.
July 1st, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Er, actually Horn wasn’t “acquitted” he just wasn’t brought up on charges…sorry.
July 1st, 2008 at 3:47 pm
flap..in Texas minorities are shot, beat up, falsely arrested, higher % sentenced to longer sentences, executed in higher %. DA’s are elected based on the popularity of the old west shoot em up cartoons. And we have really high hand gun suicide rate. At least the last is a fair statistic…the cowboy’s own internal vengence…bang! they’re dead! Too bad poor Joe didn’t take aim at himself! Texas justice..an oxymoron!
July 1st, 2008 at 3:58 pm
This man put himself in the line of danger by leaving his home. If he felt threatened from the inside, then he should have bunkered down with his gun in the corner.
He put himself, anyone who was outside, and the police officer in danger just to stop someone from taking off with $2000 in goods. What if the plain-clothes police officer happened to be out of his car at the time? What if Horn had mistaken him for an accomplice? He wasn’t able to see what was going on out front until he left the house. If he had shot the officer, what kind of trouble would he be in?
Is killing another human being worth $2000? The crime certainly doesn’t warrant the death penalty and no one was threatening him with a deadly weapon.
He started off doing the right thing. He didn’t look the other way, he called 911 to keep his neighbor’s stuff safe. Anything after that was unnecessary.
He’s not a hero. He’s a trigger-happy guy who seemed to warm up to the idea of shooting another human being. This isn’t the Old West. This situation also doesn’t compare to a gun-toting bank robber. The bank robber is holding people at gunpoint. He is actively threatening a life.
These two idiots were stealing stuff and didn’t seem to be threatening anyone (just their property). Joe Horn never had to leave his house. He just wanted to.
July 1st, 2008 at 4:12 pm
I was listening to Michael smirkonish [from philly] who was sitting in for the Marlboro man and he pointed out an interestig factoid about the new gun law in that part of texas. If you witness a burgular leaving the scene who comes on your property you are allowed to shoot, after listening to the tape one or both of these intruders crossed onto his property after the crime. So it sounds like this action taken by Mr. Horn was within written law.
Maybe this will curtail burgulars and make them think twice now the 2nd amendment allows handguns in the home.
July 1st, 2008 at 4:41 pm
I agree with Sarah. This Horn guy sounds trigger-happy. If he had any reservations about killing another person, he would have stayed out of harm’s way and let the police do their job. Just by listening to the tape, it sounded to me like he couldn’t wait to shoot somebody.
July 1st, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Horn left the safety of his own house with the premeditated intent to shoot them. The punishment of death did not fit the crime. Cops were right there yet Horn could not restrain himself. And he didn’t just wound them in the leg or something so they couldn’t run away. He blew holes in their backs over a stupid bag of loot while shouting, “Boom! You’re dead!”. Then he claimed to the dispatcher “he had no choice” when he clearly did have a choice. Horn made the choice to be judge, jury and executioner.
July 1st, 2008 at 5:17 pm
CheesyPoofs, I only disagree with two things you said: It’s pretty much a movie thing to shoot for the legs. I doubt this man is trained to be able to do such a thing. And I think his comment was “Move, your dead”. As in stay put or I will shoot you. It’s not the clearest thing.
Other than that, I agree whole-heartedly. He CLEARLY had a choice. Claiming otherwise is ridiculous.
July 1st, 2008 at 5:53 pm
Sarah,
You may be quite right about shooting to wound being more of a movie thing (although I know of 2 such cases where someone was shot in the lower body to stop a crime but not kill). The main reason I asked why he didn’t shoot them in the legs is because I read in the Houston Chronicle that, while Horn was no longer a master hunter, he would have “needed precision shooting to hit two moving targets going in different directions in a matter of seconds” as per the plainclothes officer’s description of the shooting (which he witnessed from the front of Horn’s house). The Chronicle also said “Horn was seven feet from the pair” which is plenty close enough to get a precision spread pattern from a shotgun. I thought that if perhaps he was capable of precision shooting and was at such close range, he could have shot them lower in their bodies. Of course, being that close, even a lower body shot would have inflicted much damage (but perhaps not fatal).
It could very well be that Horn said “move, you’re dead”. I got the “boom! you’re dead” from the 911 transcript at cbsnews (below) as it looked like they had a more complete transcript than did the Chronicle articles I read. I suppose it doesn’t necessarily matter to me whether it was “move” or “boom”…it was the “you’re dead” part that spoke to Horn’s intent.
Yes, he clearly did have a choice. And because of his choice, 2 people are dead over $2K worth of things (even though at least one police officer was on scene to handle the situation).
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/17/national/main3517564.shtml?source=mostpop_story
Some interesting comments here:
http://texasfred.net/archives/1317
July 2nd, 2008 at 12:04 am
Actually, on the Monday night show a caller brought up a case that occurred on Long Island, wherein a group of reportedly rowdy young white men (I think 4 or 5) pursued a young black man to his parents’ home, and the father, an M.D., felt that he and his son’s lives were in danger, and so he shot one of the whites (who died) and was convicted of a felony (I’m not sure of the exact charge).
I agree with Buddha (posting above) that the case of Joe Horn “says something about our primal thoughts on criminals,” and we all want to see the bad guy get “justice,” but if we resort to “frontier justice” we open ourselves to a thousand injustices for every wrong we attempt to right.
Not to mention a lawsuit for “wrongful death.”
There’s a reason different crimes are punished to different degrees of severity. And if we pick up a gun and execute “justice” for every violation of the law then we are the Taliban, beheading women for daring to go outside the home without proper escort.
(flap: I think we’re more in agreement than not. Well at least on this thread anyway. : )
July 2nd, 2008 at 2:25 am
Cheesypoofs, thanks for linking those comments. It makes me feel better knowing that there are some people thinking reasonably about the situation. BobF’s comments were particularly interesting as I thought the same thing.
Here’s a post at Free Republic about the black man shooting the white teen: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1681717/posts
Interestingly, there’s a lot of thought given to how Mr. White and his son should have stayed in the house and not confronted the teens. Calling 911. Or how they should have fired a warning shot first. Or how the scene possibly took place on the street making it public property and not a home defense.
And then you go to the stories on Joe Horn and it’s all “Way to go!” and “I wish he were my neighbor”. *sigh*
I think in both situations, no one had to die. Both gun-toting citizens should have stayed in the house and only used deadly force if the intruders tried to gain entry. I would really like to see a bit of consistency, you know?
July 2nd, 2008 at 10:23 am
If one reviews today’s Houston Chronicle interview of Horn, you find a man at least troubled by his actions. He tries to convince himself what he did was out of fear…the tapes say otherwise. That he will suffer sleepless nights and eventually answer to a higher authority is the only tidbit of justice in this case.
July 2nd, 2008 at 12:04 pm
RC~ interesting that you brought that phone call up. I felt bad for the guy, bc I don’t think Alan understood the parallel the man was drawing. In a later call that night, the caller said something like “I’ll bet Horn would’ve been charged if he were black and the victims white”. Alan said he was probably right. So the two calls that night were basically the same.
The case of John and Aaron White is actually quite interesting. In their case, I’m not sure why they didn’t call the cops. Aaron was being pursued by the teenagers on his drive home, but they were exchanging cell phone calls… so why didn’t he use the cell to call for help?. When he got home, depending on how quickly he rushed into the door and what he was saying, I can actually understand his father rushing out with a gun.
Anyway, I’d google John and Aaron White for more info.
July 2nd, 2008 at 2:24 pm
Yeah, about John and Aaron White: the father probably shouldn’t have done what he did, waited for the cops, etc., but that assumes a LOT when you’ve got a mob of FIVE likely amoral mush-headed teenagers around your son. Did the father know for sure that his son would not be shot? Especially if his son was being *pursued*! Perhaps these teenage idiots were about to perpetrate a racial hate crime?
In this case and the Joe Horn case, these shooters are law-abiding citizens, are they not? We should be careful not to condemn this type of stuff too quickly.
I actually think the black dude was even more within his rights to shoot…he’s protecting his son on his property from delinquents who are following his son home. He probably should have fired a warning shot, etc., but again biiiig assumptions going on.
The black dude is named Mr. White? :-P
July 2nd, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Not just no but hell no he shouldn’t have. It is about time people stand up for themselves, take initiative, and show a little back bone.
July 2nd, 2008 at 5:57 pm
There is no question in my mind that no one’s life is worth $2000 worth of jewelry and cash. But the persons who first need to hear and understand that are perpetrators of crimes. It isn’t of any value for me to think no one’s life is worth that if the person committing the crime thinks his life is worth less than $2000.
I don’t want to see anyone get the death penalty for a $200 burglary, but should they just get off scott free? I heard the tape, Horn yelled, ‘Move and you’re dead.’ He tried to hold them for the police, which is why he took his phone out to the confrontation. I think this would have never happened if a guy with a long criminal record hadn’t wanted to lengthen his record.
Our society needs to start caring more for the rights of VICTIMS than they do about the rights of CRIMINALS. Until that day arrives, I’d be glad to have Joe Horn for a neighbor. Let criminals be afraid.
November 29th, 2008 at 1:31 pm