KC Church Says Our Muslim President Is A Sin Against The Lord
November 18th, 2008, 12:33 PM EST
Pastor Mark Holick of the Spirit One Christian Center in Wichita says it won’t remove its message, in spite the fact that Obama is a Christian, not a Muslim.
On its web page, it claims it is a “friendly, friendly church.” Is that why there was a shouting match outside the church this past Sunday between Obama supporters and church members?
Perhaps Pastor Mark Holick is the sin against the Lord.
He’s got the arrogance covered, or is he more afraid of loosing that faith based money?
November 18th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
I read the news section of the website. It’s like he’s proud of being full of hate.
Not what I thought Christianity was about, but I guess I was wrong.
November 18th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
But, Obama admitted to me on air that he was a muslim. I had to tell him that he was Christian. Even then, he didn’t believe me.
November 18th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
No he didn’t, Bizzaro World George Stephanopolous, your buddies in Right Wing World just spun it that way
November 18th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
Let’s not lump all of Christianity in with the views of one Pastor. Pastor Holick is trying to spread his name and get cheap media exposure at the expense of his Church and Religion.
November 18th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
He said, and I quote, “My Muslim faith”. No spin in that statement. Go back and watch the interview. If he’s not a Muslim, then he’s a liar. You pick.
November 18th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
Everybody knows God hates Muslims, Jews, gays, blacks, etc… Why, Pastor Mark Holick told me so.
Of course, I think he worships bizarro God.
November 18th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Christianity doesn’t have a lock on ignorant people, but it does have more than it’s share.
November 18th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
All that quote was,was Obama stating that McCain never engaged in the lies.
McCain once said, “to people in Pa, ‘Obama has a poor opinion of you, and I couldn’t agree with him more’. Nobody thinks that he meant it THAT way.
If you were a dog lover, accused of being a cat lover, and said that an opponent, never talked of your ‘cat loving’, and the host says, “you mean dog loving”, and you are like, “yea, whatever…”, (cause you hear this a BILLION times a day)….are you lying?
Nobody REALLY thinks so.
November 18th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
As a devout Christine I am ashamed of such a sign
Some Christians are so ignorant not only is he a Christian even if he was not who cares! I would rather a good Islamic Person then an average Christian
A lot goes back to old testament thinking that God makes covenant with nations and relates through them when the truth is GOD relates on a personal level to the individual through Christ.
Man the church needs a teaching on separation of church and state! Christianity has always worked beter has a sub-Culture then trying to rule/dominate politically.
God help us
November 18th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Unfortunately, Dennis, the very ‘Christians’ that need to be informed about ’separation of Church and State’ are the same ones that deny such a thing exists.
November 18th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
Why is it a sin?
This is a secular country, with a secular Constitution. So anyone; Christian, Moslem, Jew, Buddhist, or even Atheist has the same right to be elected president as anyone.
November 18th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Are you dizzy from all your spinning?
November 18th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Enough is enough! The fact that churches don’t pay taxes yet continue to run vast multi-million dollar political operations means they are effectively government sponsored welfare empires. It is simply not fair that I pay my taxes and the money goes to these hillbilly tax-dodgers who are free to spout profoundly anti-American garbage like this. Perhaps this administration should re-visit tax exemption for these hate groups. Religion destroyed and divided Europe, Asia and Africa - don’t let them destroy America.
November 18th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
Why aren’t people like this being put on TV on a segment and figuring out how many of these idiots voted for McCain b/ they think Obama is Muslim or since he’s black they can’t vote for him. Yet you guys run a segment on uninformed or better yet you call them uneducated Obama voters…
Fight Back Alan!
November 18th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
NOBODY thought Obama meant it like the right wingers spun it to mean in there wishful thinking.
It’s almost pitiful that they would say he is a Muslim, while whining about his Christian church.
I don’t believe that anyone outside of the people like the woman who said he was amn Aaarab, actually believe it.
This is why David Brooks says all the intellect is gone, and David Frum says,
“I am really and truly frightened by the collapse of support for the Republican Party by the young and the educated,” he said.
November 18th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Boggieman
You are correct hopefully that will change.
With Obama has President and the Black Church being more powerful and more of a sold understanding of church and state things may be better. I HOPE!
Most Evangelical Black Churches are politically liberal but religiously conservative. TD Jakes for example.
Let us pray such ignorance goes away but it is an uphill battle for sure
November 18th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
The silly game you’re playing, George Stephanopolous, is getting less cute by the second.
Get lost.
November 18th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
TDRO ~
Glad to see you on ~ haven’t seen a post from you in awhile. I thought the conservative “crazies” drove you away!
November 18th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Jake
Religion has done a lot of damage I agree. But please keep in mind it has done much good has well. WILLIAM WILBERFORCE who fought slavery in England-Dietrich Bonhoeffer Fought Nazi Germany and Martin Luther King, Mother Theresa etc all based on religious views. Any extreme is wrong. Communism is an extreme secular oppressive state that oppressed half of Europe for half a century. A state can go too religious and be oppressive and lack freedom it has happened many times. But A state can be too secular has well.
I hope America finds that balance.
November 18th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
And Jesus was a Jew… What’s this arseholes point?
.
.
November 18th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Oklad
He has no point but to show his ignorance
November 18th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
The holocaust was fully backed and supported by the Roman Catholic church. Victims were overseen and “blessed” by Catholic priests as they were marched into gas chambers. The Church has spent the last 50 years trying to cover up their complicity in the murders.
Name me one Catholic country in Europe whose army fought against the Nazis during the war - Poland, Ukraine, France, Italy Spain, Lithuania, Croatia, Austria, Portugal - even Ireland was “neutral” although tell that to the dead Scots bombed n Clydebank by German planes fueled during stopovers in Ireland.
Mother Theresa funneled money which was sent for the poor of India back to the Catholic church in Rome - no doubt to bankroll anti-abortion groups who murder doctors, and to pay off their manifold child-molestation lawsuits.
Communism is not the opposite of religion - Freedom is.
November 18th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Now wait, is the church in Wichita or Kansas City? Which is it? It’s a 200 mile difference - twice the distance from New York to Philadelphia. There’s that excellent fact checking again…
November 18th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
“If he’s not a Muslim, then he’s a liar.”
And if you believe that, you’re trying really really hard to find some justification for your own dislike of the guy.
“Why is it a sin?”
The clue, I’m guessing, is the reference to “EX 20:3″ on the sign in the pic, which I read as Exodus: Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Obama is being revered as the messiah, in other words, and therefore we should expect a plague of locusts, or some other catastrophe, conjured up by a mean and vengeful god.
But, of course, this is from Kansas, proximate to the Land of Oz, so it’s no real surprise.
November 18th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Just another crazy preacher using passages from the Bible to promote his own righteous-ness. If we are to take this sign literaly, than Obama being Muslim has nothing to do with Ex 20:3. Either we have made Obama into a “god” (then the passage applies) or he’s just a Muslim that got elected (then the passage is not relevant.) Is the crazy preacher saying that any US President is a god? I’m so confused…
November 18th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Jake,
I am not going to argue the merits of religion or secular societies both extremes are wrong. The Catholic was guilty of aiding and abettting the Catholic church by doing nothing. Nazi Germany belived in God (Christianity) but was not Religious. They hated evangelicals that preached against them and is one reason they killed Dietrick Bonhoeffer . Unliked Communism they allowed people to practice there Christian Faith as long as they kept it to themselves. Bonhoeffer did not. A sign over one concentration camp said “The Jews created the cocscience we will destroy it.” Meaning the Torah the law. Nazi Germany was in many ways worse for true Christians then Communism because it gave you the choice of hiding your lamp underneath the bedpost and not being open about your faith. Something Jesus warned against. Nazi Germany hated the code of conduct of religion they hated the Torah and any Christian that would speak out against them. Sadly not many did. Comunism gave you a clear choice practice your faith in anyway face Prison or worse.
Nazi Germany believed in God in a superficial way not in any way that would affect there daily life obviously
The catholic Church in most cases is non-Evangelical so the relationship was a match in many ways. Not true for those who preached the Gospel.
There are many examples of extreme religious states IRAN Catholic Church during crusades etc etc.
But to deny Stalin’s purges-Anti-Semitic Society oppression under Communism and how under Communism the state becomes God. No free speech no freedom of the press.
Again there are pleny of examples on both side secular and religious that is way a pluralistic society is neeeded.
I believe any extreme is wrong hope you do to.
BTW: I am not Catholic.
God Bless you
November 18th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Jake,
I am not going to argue the merits of religion or secular societies both extremes are wrong. The Catholic was guilty of aiding and abetting the Catholic Church by doing nothing. Nazi Germany believed in God (Christianity) but was not religious. They hated evangelicals that preached against them and is one reason they killed Dietrick Bonhoeffer. Unlike Communism they allowed people to practice there Christian Faith as long as they kept it to themselves. Bonheoffer did not. A sign over one concentration camp said “The Jews created the conscience we will destroy it.” Meaning the Torah the law; Nazi Germany was in many ways worse for true Christians then Communism because it gave you the choice of hiding your lamp underneath the bedpost and not being open about your faith. Something Jesus warned against. Nazi Germany hated the code of conduct of religion they hated the Torah and any Christian that would speak out against them. Sadly not many did. Communism gave you a clear choice practice your faith in anyway face Prison or worse.
But to deny Stalin’s purges-Anti-Semitic Society oppression under Extreme SecularCommunism and how under Communism the state becomes God No freedom of the press or freedom of speech is not too live in reality
That is why a Pluralistic society is the only way.
I hate the sign this church put up and stand against it
I believe any extreme is wrong hope you do to.
BTW: I am not Catholic.
God Bless you
November 18th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Oh and Yes of cause there have been many examples and still are (IRAN) of states that are controlled by Religion.
An extremist is one who thinks he cannot go to the extreme. All idealogies can go to the extreme if not
balanced.
Thank You
November 18th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
“But to deny Stalin’s purges-Anti-Semitic Society oppression under Extreme SecularCommunism and how under Communism the state becomes God No freedom of the press or freedom of speech is not too live in reality”
Who denied it??
Communism is just another evil religion - it is no different to Christianity, Scientology, Judaism, Islam or Buddhism. W have eradicate Communism more or less - but there are still a few evils to go.
If pluralism is the only way tell that to all these Christian bigots.
BTW - I was raised Catholic but a visit to Terezin concentration camp soon cured me of that.
November 18th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
I was just wondering Alan, why you never posted anything here of the homosexual activists who disrupted a church service in Michigan to shout down the paster and throw some form of leaflets all over the sactuary before runnigh out like cowards.
That is no better than this pastor’s sign. Maybe all you libs condone such actions because it falls into your belief system. Such as your belief of if they don’t conform to our beliefs we’ll cram it down their throats until they do. Which is what the gay rights movement does every day. Just to name one.
November 18th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
Communism does not allow freedom of other religions even if you twist it into somekind of Secular religious state it is non Theistic the question is do you believe in freedom of speech freddom of other religious beliefs?
November 18th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
WILLY
You have a point….
I think Alan figures Fox-Hannity Etc will do that
But to show Balance i wish he would take the high road and be fair.
Dennis
November 18th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Jake,
I have seen bad on all sides. I believe in Freedom above all. Sorry you had a bad experience.
Martin Luther King was inspired by his faith as were many great men and women.
November 18th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
The sign is just stupid, that reverend will never accept anything else than a hardass right wing christian prez, so just let it hang and show it for the stupidity it represents. I am from Sweden and I think the US is a great place, with it´s fare share of nutcases, but all in all good people in a great country. (Not as great as Sweden though…:=)) Anyay. I saw bits and peices of a film called “Jesus Camp” on youtube, and that s**t is scary. That is, in my mind, the biggest problem in America, jesusfreaks. Not that I don´t respect religion, my father was a deacon of the church and I have a religious mom, but the fanaticism just scares the bejeezus out of me. I myself is an atheist, but I wont rub it in anyones face, if they don´t start rubbing their beliefs in mine and I think that religion has got it´s place in society, as long as it is separated from any influence on a larger scale i.e. religious in-your-face statesmen.
Anyway, look up jesuscamp and please, do what you can to combat that kind of religious outbreaks.
Live well
November 18th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
– Mohandas Gandhi
November 18th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
Matte
Thank you for your comments although I think the term JesusFreakls is a bit much I understand your point. The Isuue is unlike other religions Christianity demands as one of its creeds “To Preach the Gospel” It is clear in Scripture so it is not a closet religion. However the problem as with any religion as I stated in earlier post is how a religion relates to Government. We cannot legislate morality or try to force a Christian Nation that is not Bibilical. We must separtae church and stae and stop tying the Bible to the Republican platform. Or any Political platform. We should vote but live out or values more then anything else.
A lot goes back to old testament thinking that God makes covenant with nations and relates through them when the truth is GOD relates on a personal level to the individual through Christ. The modern American church does not separate covernants. America has no special realtionship with God.
Christianity has always worked better has a sub-Culture then trying to rule/dominate politically.
It is a matter of Heart conversion not state Politics.
Christianity was spreading throughout Rome/World individual to individual but then Constantine made the edit declaring everyone Christians which changed it from an issue of the heart to an issue of birth rite and no choice. It was always meant to be a choice.
It actually was a bad moment in Christian History.
It is too bad the church sees God this way it is all individual each man must choice.
I voted for Obama and pray God keep him safe.
God Bless
November 18th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
For anyone who feels the spirit move them, so to speak, there is a page for submitting comments directly to this “church” on their website. I just left the Ghandi quote above. Perhaps if they were flooded with messages of love and tolerance, something might seep in.
November 18th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
TCNY
SO True but not with all
All I can say is “LIKE CHRIST”
Be a better example of what a Christian should be
Pray for our nation
November 18th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Pastor whoever is just plain nuts and alot of religious right is nuts as well. Just to prove a point. I was reading the HERALD - LEADER here in LEXINGTON,KY. 1 section on the front page was talking about the big 3 bailout. In this alone 50,000 jobs in this state alone will be affected. On page 4 their is a section on number of hungry rises in this country. Shown in a color graph parts of the country affected the most in dark blue. I notice the pastors state is dark blue as well as the state i am from. Most of the states in dark blue voted for McCAIN. Most of these right wing nuts come from those dark blue states and most of the folks not for the bailout are dark blue as well. Toss in right wing talk radio fuels people like the good pastor. They rather see the country go bankrupt. They love spewing junk in the LORDS name. Go hungry and most of the states backing THE GOP are some of the poorest states with lowest wages. High child birth deaths. Crying about lower taxes. Moral issues and guns. That they are the only 1,s that love the USA,but remain like robots with no minds and liberals are devils. Someone please tell me what is wrong with these folks even thou i know. For more insight on the right wing backward logic go to kentucky .com and read about the bailout and more folks becoming hungry.
November 18th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
“Now wait, is the church in Wichita or Kansas City?”
The church is in Wichita. The reporting TV stations were FOX 4 in Kansas City, Missouri (210 miles away) and Channel 12 in Wichita.
Missouri is bad enough but Wichita is 99% Baptist country. I’ll only spot you 1% to account for the Mennonites scattered around places like Hesston and Hillsboro. When push comes to shove, the Mennonites aren’t shy about telling you how they look down their noses at the Baptists while the Baptists are busy looking down their noses at everyone else.
What is wrong with Kansas?
November 18th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Faith,
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another’s ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one’s promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
It has occurred to me that an awful lot of people are unaware of what faith is exactly, even though they practice faith on a daily basis.
When you get on an elevator you have faith that it will operate correctly, you put your trust in the men who are supposed to inspect and maintain the elevator. It looks safe and so you get in without even realizing that you just exercised faith. You can’t examine all of the mechanical equipment of the elevator, the gears and cables, and yet you trust it will carry you safely.
Why?
Because rarely there is a catastrophic elevator accident.
The people who boarded the HMS Titanic had faith that they we’re sailing on an unsinkable ship. It was the PRIDE of human achievement. Men boasted that it could not be sunk. I remember something about them not having enough life boats on the ship because they we’re certain they wouldn’t need them. Nobody who boarded that ship had any idea what was coming.
If I had been on the dock that day that ship set sail for the Americas, warning people that their trust in the things of man, their confidence in the human shipbuilders who fabricated the “unsinkable” boat, was foolishness, how many would have listened?
How many would have laughed and ridiculed me for my ignorance?
Surely this boat will never sink, what are you mad? You’re obviously an idiot, so off with you now.
I do not put my faith in the wisdom and achievement of men.
Am I against the sciences? No, not so long as they practice science. Science is the practice of controlled repeatable and verifiable experiments. It’s the collection and analyzing of data, that’s been determined to be trustworthy because of consistent results, and it’s assumed to be correct.
Assumed is the key word here. Science has a history of revisionism. Throughout its history scientific evidence that has been determined to be ironclad in its findings has later been discovered to be in error. At one time scientists made the bold proclamation that they had discovered the atom, and they stated that they BELIEVED it to be the smallest particle that could exist.
Nothing they said was smaller than the atom.
Many years later and they’ve revised their theory. Now the talk is of subatomic particles and quantum physics.
Can science ever prove or disprove the existence of God?
No, it’s impossible.
God does not exist in a physical universe, He transcends it. He is eternal, no one made Him, and He has always been.
Exodus 3:14 (New King James Version)
14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.”
God exists outside of time, no one made Him, He has always been. He doesn’t grow old. He never gets any weaker and in fact is a strong as is possible. He is all knowing, He doesn’t get smarter over time and he will never lose any intelligence. He is immortal.
He knows exactly how many grains of sand exist on the earth, He knows where every molecule and particle and anything else you can think of are.
He created light.
He is a being that is so far beyond our imagination that we can barely comprehend Him.
How can this be?
Have you ever tried to explain yourself to an insect?
Isaiah 55:8 (Amplified Bible)
8For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says the Lord.
The Lord of creation is an awesome God.
Why do we have starvation and suffering?
Because men are not His stewards. The kingdom of men is corrupt. Powerful men, seize for themselves the resources God has provided. They hoard this wealth all for themselves. They control and dominate all of the planets resources, and require others to perform work, in order that they might share a place at the table.
As time goes on the resources on this planet will dwindle, there will be less and less, there will be famine and pestilence. Nations will war with other Nations to seize what few resources remain. These will be dark days, and in these times people will say it would have been better to have never been born.
Did God do it?
No. Men are growing hard of heart. The race of man is turning away from God on a level such as never before.
You’re seeing the ripples of this movement now.
The Bill Maher’s of the world who laugh and mock and denigrate the One who gave them life.
Why?
So they can engage freely in sin and rejoice in their own glory.
Ask yourself this, are humans becoming more or less moral?
Is the race of man sinking into depravity?
Is brotherly love increasing or decreasing?
Are we moving into a new age, or are we teetering on the brink of a passing age?
God says that He’s choosing His people, and His people are choosing Him.
How long until the end of days?
I have no idea, I don’t think about it much because I have the strength of the Almighty. I don’t worry about the end. God says he will recast the heavens and the earth once the wheat has separated itself from the chaff.
Everyone’s busy putting their faith in Obama,
I’m busy putting my faith in God.
What does an atheist put their faith into?
Everyone chooses. We’re all free to believe what we want to.
November 18th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
Dennis
It is true that you can not legislate morality, but I have a real problem with equating, or even comparing, morality and religion. I do not say that you do Dennis, but many people do think that religion and morals go hand in hand. You actally seem like a levelheaded person with your religious “compass” if you will kind of set straight, but I have never met you so I don´t really know:=) However, a common comment from religious persons, whatever their faith, is that you cannot be moral without somekind of belief in a divine creator holding your hand. In my opinion nothing could be farther from the truth, I actually think just the opposite. If you help your neighbour, if you feed the poor, if you help the needing, and if you do theese things without faith, without the “threat” of punishment hanging over your head at all times, you really are a moral person. Far too many people I have had discussions with think that I am lost, that I do not have ethics and morality just because I do not believe in a saviour or eternity. Religion has, in my mind, “hijacked” morality, and done it falsly. Although I am a believer of freedom of, and from, religion, I think that most of the conflicts around the world and in the history of the world, are religon-based, and therefore in my mind religion has surpassed it´s best-before-date. A world without religion would, in my mind, free us from one of our biggest points of conflict. However, we as a spieces obviously are determined to obliviate ourselves, so we would always come up with new reasons to tear eachother apart…..
Let us just all agree to respect eachothers opinions and beliefs and discuss them as grown ups and even if I personally always (short of a divine intervention) will be a hardened and avid proponent of atheism, I will always listen, and probably disagrre, but respectfully so, to other people who has another mindset.
November 18th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
If.
If only.
If only I had.
Matte, is human nature good?
If people are capable of these charitable actions then why don’t they follow through?
Lets put our honest hats on now and ask ourselves, honestly, how much good do we do?
Not doing bad, is not the same as doing good.
Think about it.
How often do you volunteer your time and donate your resources?
How often does anybody practice what they preach?
November 18th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
Trees are people too….
Just a sort one. Science is ALWAYS quetioning itself. The one saying that the atom was the smallest part was just not a good scientist. The very core of a scientific outlook is to question, question and then after that, question what you just questioned. Faith has no part in MY life, it is just not believable to me. Although it is for you and all power to you for that.
And to the question to what do I put my fatih in as an atheist? Well, nothing, but I think that the world is an awesome place, filled with awesome people, and I think that what we can do when we put our minds to it is just wonderful. I love life and I try to make the most out of it. I have kids and try to bring them up to be good people and that will be my legacy to the afterworld, and the way that I can keep on existing after I´m gone.
Hope you all have great lives, my time is now midnight (sweden remember???) but I will check in tomorrow.
Nighty night
November 18th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Good night, Matte
November 18th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
What if Obama was a Muslim? What exactally does that mean? Does that mean that he is a terrorist? Does that mean that he is less of a person than a Christian? Does that mean that he doesn’t have the right to live in a country founded on religious freedom? Why does the word Muslim strike fear in the hearts of some poeple? Are we to believe that every Muslim is a a horrible person? There are many people living here of many different religions that are decent caring people. Yes, they have different beliefs that we do, SO WHAT?
November 18th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
Hi Danielle:
Yeah, the righties drove me away. It seemed the only people posting here were the crazy right wingers. I’m glad to see it’s almost back to normal.
November 18th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
Just letting everyone 1 know i realize the church is in KANSAS or MIZZO. Making a point on my post on how the right is thinking by tying in the pastor,anti big 3 bailout,states where hunger went up,where the crazy remarks come from,where the most votes for McCAIN came from,where right wing talk radio is big at and my state of KY. 50,000 jobs will be affected that is anto-OBAMA and 20% of the people in did vote for him because of color. The people from those states are some of the poorest in the nation,hate OBAMA cling to evangeical and moral issues. In my state these same folks rather see 50,000 jobs in state for non support of the big 3 and make commets like the good ole pastor. I say these folks are like mice running to the flute of right wing talk radio. Where is the logic of these folks? They seem like robots that want lost of jobs. Where the hunger rate keeps going up. Anti-color and liberal and anything democrat. Clinging to GOD and guns. May GOD please them.
November 18th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
TDRO:
Vince has been MIA as well. I guess the thought of Obama winning was too much for him!
November 18th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
TDRO:
Vinnie has been MIA as well!
November 18th, 2008 at 8:44 pm
Bradley too!
November 18th, 2008 at 8:44 pm
I guess the thought of Obama winning was too much for them to handle!
November 18th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
Mark Holick and Fred Phelps…separated at birth?
November 18th, 2008 at 11:23 pm
Ah ah trees you’re supposed to put “your” or “my” in front of god when stating what “your god” wants us to do. let me help you: my God says that He’s choosing His people, and His people are choosing Him. see its really simple.
November 19th, 2008 at 2:14 am
Craig, what are you doing? Shouldn’t you be sleeping?
November 19th, 2008 at 3:16 am
Hi, Craig. My new friend Matte from Switzerland made a very astute observation. He said;
Matte, every one in the world has a moral code right?
God says He’s written “His laws on you’re heart and given you a conscience to bear witness.”
And also that “it is appointed once for a man to die and then the judgment”
IF God IS, and IF he hates immorality and He is the creator of everything in the cosmos, all things on both heaven and earth, should he punish lawbreakers?
Should murderers escape justice?
The mirror of Gods Law, I’ll list just four, to keep it simple.
“you shall not lie”
“you shall not steal”
“you shall not murder”
“you shall not covet”
His Law reflects His righteous character, His perfection. He is so perfect that we have a word in our vocabulary reserved specifically for Him.
HOLY
If we turn His mirror towards ourselves, what do we see?
We see ourselves as we truly are. LYING, THIEVING, MURDEROUS, and desiring the possessions of others, COVETOUS.
This is only four of the ten.
God says if you break any one of His laws the punishment is death. We’ve all broken His laws, and so we all die.
Search your conscience and see if you’re “good enough” to please God.
Remember not your standards but His. You must be absolutely perfect.
Do you ever have dark thoughts? Do you ever desire to do things you know are wrong?
Do you ever have unjustified anger towards another human being?
Have you ever lied or stolen anything, have you ever wanted to steal something.
All evil comes from within the heart of humanity.
Jeremiah; 9-10
“ The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
I, the LORD, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give every man according to his ways,
According to the fruit of his doings.
Good works don’t erase bad deeds, if you’re in court and accused of a crime, a just judge doesn’t dismiss your case because you gave somebody money, or said a kind word to someone.
Judaism understood God’s character, and in an effort to keep his laws, created a bunch of additional laws other than the big ten. Not the Leviticus laws Jersey Jim.
The Sabbath laws.
The ridiculous laws of men’s devising, such as, if you scratch your scalp and dislodge dandruff on the Sabbath, you’ve violated it because this was considered to be performing “work”.
Silly, hunh?
They came up with these laws because men seek to break the law, men we’re always trying to find ways to violate the Sabbath.
They couldn’t even keep the law that required them to rest!
Their conscience declared them guilty.
This only increased their plight, and it is the stumbling block the New Testament is discussing concerning them. NO ONE can keep the LAW, ALL HAVE BROKEN IT.
The purpose of the law is to serve as our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.
He died a substitution death. He paid for my sins with his Life’s Blood.
HE WILL NOT force Himself on you; He gives you free will to make you own choices.
You can choose to not believe and He will stay out of your life.
It’s why you can live your entire life Matte, not only refusing to do good things, but also engaging in and practicing bad things.
God allows free will.
Why does God allow the innocent to suffer?
This is a hard Christian truth. The answer is that the presupposition that anyone is innocent is false.
This is a hard thing to say, and it’s very difficult for me to say it, but if I shield you from the truth have I done you any favors?
If you had a disease that would kill you, and you didn’t know it, but I did, would I be your friend if I just kept quiet?
Would you accept a cure that was painful and difficult to swallow if it would save your life?
The fact is that from the time of our birth, from the moment we become self aware we learn to manipulate to get what we want.
How?
It starts with crying; the child cries and soon learns that crying brings about a favorable action, he cries and his needs are satisfied.
Am I saying we should ignore our children, absolutely not. Who could ignore the needs of a crying child?
And so a pattern becomes established. A good parent will enforce discipline and correction as the child grows to try and prevent him from being selfish. Have you ever watched kids “play”?
Ever notice how they don’t like sharing?
We don’t teach our children to lie; they learn it all by themselves.
We call it human nature.
I call it our problem.
We all have this problem; we’re born with and into it. We all wear masks.
Does God judge children?
No.
he allows us the opportunity to reach maturity and then we can make an informed decision, this age is different for every individual.
At some point all of us decide, one way or another, have you ever noticed that?
No one is ignorant to the concept of God, all are aware.
There has never been a society of true atheists.
God answers prayer, if you contemplate these things I’ve said and ask Him to reveal Himself to you He will, you will begin to see the world through new eyes, you will begin to walk with God, and you will find a newfound appreciation for the world and the marvelous things in it.
Not the possessions of men, but the good things of God. A beautiful autumn morning for example. You will begin to live.
I don’t expect everyone to believe as I do; the bible tells me only a remnant will.
Men pride themselves and their intellect over God.
If you think that the world just happened, if it was just the biggest chance occurrence ever, if there is no governing force guiding and sustaining, then choose atheism.
If you think another religion is more logical, and makes more sense, then practice that.
All I’ve ever done is share what I believe and why.
Thank you for talking to me Matte; I’m always your friend, trees
November 19th, 2008 at 4:15 am
Hi, Craiger. How was your weekend in St. Louis? I hope you had fun. I’ll be around later today. I wonder what happened to um cara? I hope he’s not mad at me. Hi um! Say hi to the people of Brazil for me. I might get a chance to go to China, which would be awesome. Ok, I’m outta here, c-ya
November 19th, 2008 at 4:28 am
Oops, Matte is from Sweden, not Switzerland, sorry.
November 19th, 2008 at 4:43 am
Hi again trees!!
Is it not strainful to go through life being so scared? And the commandmends are, at least some of them, good things to live by. You shall not lie, you shall not kill and so forth. But how is that related to any kind of god? I just cannot see the connection. Moral code, if you will, is not an invention of believers. Moral code has been here since the beginning of man(wich by the way is a lot more than 6000 years sgo). Granted, moral code is differet in different times. For example, it was ok to kill indians when europeans first came to the new world. There actually was a trial over ten years in Valladolid, a spanish city, that determined if the indians, native americans, had a soul and if they were gods children. After ten years they came to the conclusion that they were of the creators hand, and the slaying slowed down somewhat. But what they also said was that the black men of Africa were NOT the children of god, so it was ok to enslave them. All in the name of god. That was the moral code of that time.
You shall not kill has been a “floating” commandment through time. Actually you can see similar stuff about all commandmends, all of them has been broken in the name of christianity.
There has never been a society of true atheists you say? That is actually kind of an ignorant remark, just as “there are no atheists i foxholes”. Of course there are societies of atheists, for example the sceptics movement that is growing rapidly. Of course, you might mean something else by society, but assemblys of atheists are popping up all around the world.
No atheists in foxholes is a remark that actually is kind of condescending to the atheists in military sevrcie all around the world. In the US i read that atheists make up about 20% of the military, I don´t know if that number is correct, but there is a substantial part of the military that are atheists. In Sweden I would guess that about 60% are atheists or agnostics. We are a very secular society, wich I think is great.
Well I need to change my tires on my car now, it´s freezing outside and I have got my summerwheels on.
Live well everyone
November 19th, 2008 at 5:07 am
This is just another example of Christianity causing mass confusion…
It’s extremely a dangerous…
November 19th, 2008 at 6:33 am
Stupid is as stupid does.
November 19th, 2008 at 9:12 am
Matte,
I have to say your post was written so well and fair minded. All I can say is we have already tried without a Desist religion and it lead to oppressive secular 1-communist states that made Government (State) the God.
We have tried Society without 2-without any creed that lead to Nazi Germany and its hatred of the Torah and its commandments and Morals
I think one can be a very moral person without religion. And have met better secular people then religious ones many times. However even Freud who was an atheist said religion helped lead us to Civilization and taught us laws like “do not steal” “Do not murder” etc. Without an absolute God how can there be absolute right and wrong? All is Relative.
The first thing God gave us was a Free Will. Any society that attempts to take that away secular or religious is wrong and not going along with God’s nature.
It is a tough balancing act but going too secular or too religious as we have seen in history is very dangerous. Sometimes living in one extreme or the other causes a reaction to go to the other extreme that is something we all must be careful about
Slavery only ended in the west from within England American etc because of religious code that constitution took many of its laws from “All men are equal etc.” We were not living up to that and many religious man and women-The Quakers John Wesley William Wilberforce Charles Finney etc fought against this based on there faith. And the measuring stick the constitution gave us.
Many countries in Africa etc not founded this way still have slavery today.
Sati (”suttee” in English), the practice of throwing widows into funeral fires of there husbands was stopped when the English occupied India. Based on Judeo Christian Values Although I was against England’s Imperialism something good came out of it.
I want always to see separation of church and state and never want society too far to one extreme or the other. That is one reason I find this church sign so offensive. But on the secular side find Gays attacking worship services so offensive. In other states bans against abortion were on the ballot etc and did not pass yet you did not see churches attacking NOW or planned Parenthood sites or abortion clinics although we have seen this in the past. Which goes to show al can go to extreme.
We must all respect the democratic process right to abortion is desired by a majority of population and we live in a representative democracy so it must stand.
Most are ok with Civil unions (Like Obama and myself) but not marriage and that also must be respected.
Avoiding extremes in society can be tough but it can be done.
Morals are set by our values and soul of the nation at any given time.
It is a choice of society, lets fight to keep it that way. But every society most have core values that are the foundation. that is decided by all people.
Freedom most be a key part of that process
Many secular extremist don’t want religious people to have the same voice they do when we pay individual taxes as well
We have the same constitutional rights.
I even believe churches should pay taxes and take nothing from the governments accept respect and freedom
Whether religious or not. We stand for freedom..
What is going on at this church scares me…..
What is going on with Churches being attacked in California also scares me
It should scare all of us.
Thanks
November 19th, 2008 at 10:57 am
Confusing?
God loves all of us.
God has given us life and provided for us, food and resources.
Men refuse to recognize God, seek to serve themselves and become powerful.
Some men do recognize God, but still seek to serve themselves and become powerful.
The overwhelming majority of men seek to serve themselves and become powerful.
Proud educated men seek to call this behavior, “natural selection”.
Men dislike God because they feel themselves to be good when their actions demonstrate the opposite to be true. Doing nothing doesn’t make you good, it makes you indifferent.
Men seek to become God by denying Him and claiming authority and intelligence for themselves.
Men seek to be immortal by setting unbreakable records, or fashioning monuments to themselves that will stand until the end of time.
The pyramids in Egypt have been around a long time, will they stand forever?
Anyone who points these things out is called dangerous.
November 19th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Just to be clear, Nazi leaders were all Christians. Hitler was a Catholic in good standing. He also often invoked gods name to support his goals.
You need a list of quotes?
November 19th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
I never said he did not claimed Christianity as a Catholic what i said was he did not get his value system from his any Christian based theology unless you believe Christ taught killing innocent people was right.
The Catholic Church was guilty of aiding an abetting and did not stand against him,
One could claim anything but that does not make it true.
But he was against any evangelicals preaching against Nazi idealogy which is one reason Bonhoffer was killed and Christians worked to save Jews during the Holocost.
During Hitlers dictatorship, more than 6,000 clergymen, on the charge of treasonable activity, were imprisoned or executed.
He was Christian in name only.
He was against any evangelicals preaching against Nazi ideology which is one reason Bonheoffer was killed and Christians worked to save Jews during the Holocaust
Many are Cultural Christians etc but don’t get there values or run there life based on any Christian Ethics.
One major command of the Gospel is to Evangelize Jesus commanded us to do and said if we deny HIM before man he will DENY us before man.He warned about not hiding your lamp under a bedpost but let the world see your light shine…
It is not shocking that he choice Catholic Faith it is non evangelical by nature. I have met many who love Jesus who are catholic but for the most part it is a birth rate theology and one based on Sacraments and ritual
n 1941, Martin Bormann, a close associate of Hitler said publicly “National Socialism and Christianity are irreconcilable” In 1942 he also declared in a confidential memo to Gauleiters that the Christian Churches ‘must absolutely and finally be broken.’ Thus it is evident that he believed Nazism, based as it was on a ’scientific’ world-view, to be completely incompatible with Christianity.
“When we [National Socialists] speak of belief in God, we do not mean, like the naive Christians and their spiritual exploiters, a man-like being sitting around somewhere in the universe. The force governed by natural law by which all these countless planets move in the universe, we call omnipotence or God. The assertion that this universal force can trouble itself about the destiny of each individual being, every smallest earthly bacillus, can be influenced by so-called prayers or other surprising things, depends upon a requisite dose of naivety or else upon shameless professional self-interest”
Other members of the Hitler government, including Rosenberg, during the war formulated a thirty-point program for the “National Reich Church” which included:
* The National Reich Church claims exclusive right and control over all Churches.
* The National Church is determined to exterminate foreign Christian faiths imported into Germany in the ill-omened year 800.
* The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and dissemination of the Bible.
* The National Church will clear away from its alters all Crucifixes, Bibles and pictures of Saints.
* On the altars there must be nothing but Mein Kampf and to the left of the altar a sword.
Nazi party leaders viewed Christianity and National Socialism as competing world views (even though some Christians did not see a conflict) and Hitler planned to eliminate the Christian churches after securing control of his European empire. The churches were permitted some self governing and allowed to remain because Hitler did not want to risk strong opposition until other more pressing issues were dealt with.
From the mid 1930’s, anti-Christian elements within the Nazi party became more prominent - they were restrained by Hitler who thought religion would die by its self as science advanced. Never the less the Party began to suppress religious teaching, closed religious youth movements and excluded religious instruction from the Hitler Youth. The public collection of money for religious charities was forbidden.
In 1937 all confessing church seminaries and teaching was banned. Dissident protestants were forbidden to attend universities and state-sponsored denominational and privet religious schools were closed.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a Christian pastor and theologian, was executed for contributing to a plot to assassinate Adolf Hitler and resisting Germany’s Nazi regime in other ways. By age 30 he had pastored German-speaking Protestant congregations in Spain and England, taught theology at Berlin University, and been silenced as a professor for TEACHING Christian non-cooperation with the totalitarian government.
That was Nazi Christianity non evangelical non Biblical and the state came above the church which is why he closed seminaries etc.
Besides practicing what he preached about resisting evil, Bonhoeffer also is known for his contributions to theology.
November 19th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Trees: “Men seek to become God by denying Him and claiming authority and intelligence for themselves.
Men seek to be immortal by setting unbreakable records, or fashioning monuments to themselves that will stand until the end of time.
The pyramids in Egypt have been around a long time, will they stand forever?”
So in other words, you’ve found yourself closing your eyes– only for a moment, then the moment’s gone? Do all your dreams pass before your eyes in curiosity?
Trees, it sounds like the saaaaame old song, just a drop of water in an endless sea. All we do, crumbles to the ground, though we refuse to see….
Duuuuuuust in the wind…
All we are is dust in the wiiiiiiiiind….
(Everything is dust in the wiii–)
All we are is dust iiiin the wiiiiiiind….
Ooooohhhhhhh-uh-huhhhhhhhhhh.
(Apologies to Kansas.)
November 19th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
Sarah, are you a Christian?
Please explain Jesus’ words for me.
And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you.
5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.
6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars.
See that you are not troubled; for all[a]these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences,[b] and earthquakes in various places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.
11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
“Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ [g]
49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards,
50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,
51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites.
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
November 19th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
This must be one of those “Identity” hate churches. I hope they get on the SPLC list.
November 19th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
Besides, the LORD is mentioned in the Qur’an. Only God (Allah), Ar-rahman Ar-raheem, is the LORD. Jesus, just like Muhammad, is the LORD’s messenger. The Abdullah, God’s servant. The name Jesus means God’s Savior.
November 19th, 2008 at 7:39 pm
Trees, thank you for the kind words, I try to be as levelheaded as I can and sometimes I succed and sometimes i do not:=). However, you stated:
All I can say is we have already tried without a Desist religion and it lead to oppressive secular 1-communist states that made Government (State) the God.
Yes, no denying that both communism and nazism has done a lot of bad things and they were basically atheistic or agnostic views of the world. Yes I know Hitler was catholic and that the catholic church were sometimes aiding and abetting them, but their outlook was agnostic and religion was a threat to their absolute power. But what I take issue with is that there should be an absolute truth that loss of religion automatically leads to oppressive states. As I said, Sweden is as secular as they come and our democracy is alive in every sense. As well as for example the Netherlands, the rest of Scandinavia and other places as well. You can, with some correctness, point to our religious history and state that we also have a judeo-christian background, and I would agree, but my point is that as religion is getting less and less important here, democracy and equality is getting more and more important. Of course that, as well as everything else, is based in my firm belief that religion and politics has nothing to do with one another. As you also believe.
The other side though of that coin is that “fringe-religion” and it´s followers are screamimng louder, but in a free society that is what to be expected, and I enjoy the debate so that is all well and good.
The key is not to make politics or “isms” like nazism, communism or for that matter capitalism a substitute for religion. That is what creates oppression and totalitarianism in my opinion.
Lastly I think it is kind of cool that you and me trees actually seem to agree more than we disagree, although seemingly standing on opposite sides of the argument. That is what I like about debating and discourse, you can stand on different platforms, with different outlooks on life but still kinda want the same things.
Live well
November 20th, 2008 at 4:50 am
Matte,
Another good post. I don’t think a secular state will automatically become an oppressive state as long as freedom of religion is a tenant of the Government.
I actually think as I have stated Christianity was never meant to be a political movement Christ avoided it at all costs. It was always meant to always be a sub-culture that tried to shine the love and salvation of Christ to all. Most evangelical churches forget that-sadly.
I would never won’t a Pat Robertson as President etc I shudder at the thought.
Freedom is the key even if a small minority in any country religious societies must be able to live freely.
Thanks for the great dialog
November 20th, 2008 at 10:55 am
Hey Trees– Are you preaching to me for MY sake? Or for your OWN sake? I think it’s more the latter than the former. At least it feels that way.
November 20th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
George Stephanopolous:
I simply had to reply to your BS logic:
Obama is asked a question about the rumours being floated by Republicans,including of him allegedly being a secret Muslim.
In response to that,Obama makes a detailed explanation in the middle of which,in the flow of his logical explanation,he missed the word “alleged”.It seemed very very obvious to me seeing the video of the interview that he just forgot to be a LAWYER at the moment,and forgot to use the word alleged.
And it is also clear your mind is impervious to this as a possibility until someone points it out to you,because you are obviously schooled well in the Fox News School of Rational Thinking: Pull things out of context,and state what you want to BELIEVE rather than what the EVIDENCE says and doesnt say.
Now,you can get out of being BLIND,and move into the next stage of bigoted rejection of Obama that I’ve seen from Hannity Alikes: DENIAL.Deny that it was OBVIOUSLY not a case of forgetting to use the word “alleged”.Thats how i expect Hannity to react to this argument.
November 20th, 2008 at 8:32 pm