Ted Haggard Is Back!
This time, Ted Haggard, the former pastor, disgraced because of a sex-and-drugs scandal, is a Colorado insurance salesman, selling Christianity along with insurance policies.
He confessed to being a “deceiver and a liar”, resigned from the 30-million member National Association of Evangelicals, and was fired from the New Life Church, after it was alleged he paid a male prostitute for sex and used methamphetamine.
Haggard said in 2006 he bought the drugs but never used them, confessed to “sexual immorality” and described struggling with a “dark and repulsive” side. He had risen from preaching in his basement to taking part in White House conference calls – and fallen so far that he became a late-night punch line.
As part of a severance package with his former church, Haggard agreed to leave Colorado Springs for a period and not speak publicly about the scandal, church officials said at the time. But he never really disappeared, making news when he relocated his family to Arizona and solicited financial support in an e-mail.
Members of his restoration team, however, say he’s not yet restored, and are offended that he’s soliciting funds.
Evangelicals believe God can change hearts, yet Haggard also must be held accountable and should not return to ministry early, if ever, said David Neff, editor of Christianity Today magazine.
“It’s like someone who has announced he’s an alcoholic and they’ve got that under control and are dry now,” said Neff, a National Association of Evangelicals executive committee member. “You don’t want to chance putting them back in the situation where it could happen again.”
But has Haggard truly evolved?
In the sermons, Haggard said a co-worker of his father molested him when he was 7, an experience that “started to produce fruit” when he turned 50. Haggard said something “started to rage in my mind and in my heart.” Haggard said though some allegations were exaggerated, “I really did sin.”
He apologized for making his family suffer, acknowledged suicidal thoughts and chastised church leaders for missing an opportunity to use his scandal to “communicate the gospel worldwide.” Haggard said he emerged with a stronger Christian faith and marriage than he’d ever had.
When does he actually stop being a deciever and a liar?
It cracks me up, how now that there has been a shown correlation between homosexuality and pedophilia, every one of these repressed blowhards tries to blame his “indiscretions” on a molesting uncle/family friend.
I don’t buy it any more than the typical conservative buys the average ‘woman’s health’ excuse in high abortion rate municipalities. It’s the latest red herring to throw in the dog’s trail, and to keep the attention and loyalty of a Theologically Right citizenry.
The fact that his own church doesn’t even trust him says something. We’ve had no end of corrupt evangelicals in this country: Orel Roberts, Marvin Gorman, Jim Bakker, Richard Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart, etc. The sad truth is that the bigoted, racist, hate filled fundamentalist Falwell was the best of the bunch – at least he was honest.
November 23rd, 2008 at 7:45 pm
I can agree with Jim that there is no end of corrupt evangelicals in the US…just like there are corrupt atheists, politicians, cops etc.
But I have never read of an authoratative study that shows any “correlation” between homosexuality and pedophilia. Only the rantings of certain church groups and the Mike Huckabees of the world…people not exactly well schooled in the laws of statistical analysis.
It’s scary that this lunatic Huckabee almost made a run for the white house
November 23rd, 2008 at 8:34 pm
By correlation I mean that more than one person in this country was probably involved in pederasty which could have confused a minor into believing that a same sex relationship was what he should do, even if it were not his natural inclination.
I do not think it common. I KNOW it’s not universal.
November 23rd, 2008 at 8:46 pm
I think we can safely say that a lot of evangelical preachers are corrupt. However, drawing a parallel between these folks and Mike Huckabee is more than a little bit of a stretch. To the best of my knowledge Huckabee was/is a respected Baptist minister. Not all ministers are corrupt. Just for the heck of it, I’d like to know why you think Huckabee is a lunatic.
November 23rd, 2008 at 10:07 pm
Not all ministers are corrupt.
No, this is certainly true, but enough of them are that the whole system becomes suspect. Especially with the political sway they have from manipulations of their congregations.
We should have nipped it in the bud years ago. If your denomination wants to influence the political arena, fine – but pay your fair share of taxes if you wish to be so represented. Otherwise leave the government secular.
November 23rd, 2008 at 10:25 pm
Baptist preachers are typically a “dandy” bunch of fellows. Kind of “fancy”.
Did you ever shake one’s hand? Kind of soft and feminine. No calluses to be found on those palms.
Not that it HAS to mean much but just an observation.
November 23rd, 2008 at 10:51 pm
Jersey–Good Point there—If a church involved itself in political arena they should pay taxes.If they even endorse a candidate—tax them.
November 23rd, 2008 at 10:52 pm
Forgiveness is a wonderful thing. Bless his currupted heart. Well, we need clowns in our lives to ensure we have comparisons to the sober people in our lives and that way, we can know the difference. Lock your doors.
November 23rd, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Remember Jim Bakker?
He was in Branson, appearing with all the embalmed country music stars.
He was selling an “Armageddon Survival Kit”. Who wants to be Raptured without a toothbrush and high energy protein bars to take along? And better yet, it was included in a handy backpack.
Everyone has to make a living doing something.
November 23rd, 2008 at 10:58 pm
Why do I think Mike Huckabee is a lunatic?
jeez, where do I start?
Nevermind that he doesn’t believe in evolution and thinks the earth is 6000 years old…we’ll give him a pass on that one…
But how about his call to quarentine people with AIDS?
Or maybe his statement that atheists are “more likely than not” to be immoral…pardon me?!
Or perhaps thinking he could win over voters by calling 6,000,000 Mormons “weird”?
Good grief.
November 23rd, 2008 at 11:09 pm
You probably believe that because you listen to him when he is serious….which can be a scary experience.
November 23rd, 2008 at 11:11 pm
Also I’ve flipped past FNC a few times and spent a few minutes watching him hop around the stage with a mic, interviewing his like-minded audience members like some sort of bible-belt Oprah…It just seems crazy to me.
November 23rd, 2008 at 11:23 pm
The term “like-minded” may be an oxymoron….it includes the word, “mind” in it.
He isn’t in the bible belt…he was in Colorado when he had his last arena.
November 23rd, 2008 at 11:27 pm
Righton.
Is Ted going to visit his Oral Roberts Alumna now like Michele Bachmann who somehow got re-elected in Minnesota after suggesting Obama is “anti-American and that Journalists should do a “penetrating” investigation of congress for same.
I am sure they would have a lot to talk about. Amen, Glory to God.
November 24th, 2008 at 12:14 am
Ted Haggard, isn’t that G.W.’s religious advisor that calls G.W every monday morning for religious advise and prayer for our Christian nation?
Also another G.W.’s advisor John Hagee, another religious lunatic.
November 24th, 2008 at 12:29 am
A hundred years from now the U.S. will probably be a lot like the Scandinavian countries. Religion will have been exposed for the scam it has always been. Our imaginary big daddy in the sky will have faded into the mists of time to join Zeus, Apollo, and the other creations of humanity’s childhood. The uneducated Mike Huckabees of that era will be a bigger object of derision than they are presently.
November 24th, 2008 at 2:34 am
I’d like to ask Mike Huckabee on what day God created the fossils?
November 24th, 2008 at 6:54 am
Tolerance, Tolerance, Tolerance. Liberalism isn’t about putting people down. We’ll leave that to Karl Rove’s politics of personal destruction. We’re all about helping people. Huckabee may seem kooky but he is one of the few Republicans around who actually seems to care about people. Let’s stop bashing evangelicals and get back to improving the lives of people.
November 24th, 2008 at 7:37 am
The Bible says to beware of those who bear false witness
in my name.
November 24th, 2008 at 9:11 am
That,s why the GOP should let the modrates regain power. No telling how more right wing bible thumpers out their that have not been exposed of.
November 24th, 2008 at 10:06 am
You know, if we really wanted to talk about a minister who is a lunatic, we could talk about Rev. Jerimiah Wright who preaches racism from his pulpit and damns America, the greatest country in the world. Now there’s a real lunatic!
November 24th, 2008 at 10:13 am
MARY,the same goes for the left as well. JIM JONES and REV WRIGHT. That is why we need seperation of state and church or start taxing them for using their views from the pulpit. Seems to me also that alot more right wing preachers preach hate from the pulpit. Seems alot more of them are living in sin as well.
November 24th, 2008 at 10:44 am
Interview Request
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November 24th, 2008 at 11:55 am
“How is it that even the birds have a nest to rest.And the son of Man doesn’t even have a place to lay his head tonight”…Millionaire Preachers,hypocrites,molesters of the innocents.”If anyone shall harm one of my little ones let them be cast out in the middle of the sea,with a mill stone around his neck” Thats all I have say about that.
November 24th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
Why is Huckabee a lunatic?
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/11/13/huckabee/
November 24th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Mary,
Have you heard anything from Reverend Wright besides a 10 second sound bite? I don’t think you are qualified to pass judgment on him from some sound bites in a 30 second attack ad. I’ve heard a bit of extension to those soundclips, and he’s proselytizing in the same way as the evangelicals (like the ones who are blaming fires in California on gays) about the state of the PEOPLE in this country. He’s no more nutty than Pat Robertson.
November 24th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Hello Ghazala, welcome!
November 24th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
“”Let’s stop bashing evangelicals and get back to improving the lives of people.”"
One way of improving the lives of people, is to prevent the lying to and manipulating of innocent children who are unluky enough to be born into fundamentalist christian sects. let them make up their own mind about gods when they are old enough. There are no Christian or Muslim children – only children of Christians and Muslims.
To me, being a liberal, doesn’t mean ignoring or “tolerating” abhorrent behaviour from fanatics.
And that includes the mis-guided fundamentalists that keep denying science and reality in order to preserve their little world in which they are master of all they survey…
End of religion = end of war
November 24th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Ahhhh, bad pennies always seem to come back. Poor fella, he probably tried to get a real job and they recognized his name. He might be doing this to ensure the re election of President Elect Obama. Haggard, I hope, leaves the Prop 8 issue alone in his preachings….he wouldn’t do anyone any good in that arena.
Well, Haggard, come out of the closet and bask in the light of the lord…or, whatever you call it, today, other than “Bubba’s Bride”.
November 24th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
As a Baptist preacher, I would like to ask some of you to meet us before passing judgment. There are certainly con men, crooks, and worse who call themselves preachers but the vast, vast majority of evangelical preachers are honest, dedicated men who love God and love people.
Ted Haggard (whom most evangelicals had never heard of before his disgrace) created his own situation and is suffering for it. Others (Bakker, Swaggart) similarly disgraced themselves and have likewise suffered but don’t condemn the vast majority of faithful men over a few prominent bad apples.
November 24th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Rev Wright did make at least one true statement, ” This country is run by rich white men.” Was he referring to the rich white men, CEO’s that have ruined the economy?
November 24th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
That,s a good 1 MISS MARCH.
November 24th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
Tony Hicks: That’s great. I hope for the best for you – but let me tell you something about a Baptist preacher.
My best friend died in 1996 in a motorcycle accident. He was run off the road by a drunk driver.
We went to his funeral, which for some reason the church was divided on sides; one side for friends, one for family. His friends showed up. Bobby had a lot of friends. Over 300 people in that side of the church to 4 on the other side. Is that right? 5 members of Bobby’s family were there – and one was the damned preacher. Robert L. Aligood Sr.
He used his funeral as a platform to preach to us the evils of our ‘ways’. He said God punished Bobby for ‘being out of control’.
Bobby was 20 years old, had 2 jobs, shared an apartment with someone, paid his bills and put food in the house, and helped me through some difficult times when I was having trouble keeping a roof over my head. The only hiccup in his life was that his father was overbearing and wanted him to be a preacher, something Bobby wasn’t comfortable with.
Tell me, Baptist Preacher – Is that standard practice, to demonize your own dead son to preach to the masses?
I cried harder knowing what his own father did there at his funeral than I did when he actually died.
November 24th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
To: Jim from Jersey,
I’m terribly sorry about the horrible experience that you and the family of your friend had. I’m sorry that this minister showed so little of Christ’s compassion for the hurting, especially to those of his own family. To answer your question…No, it is not standard procedure. I have never seen anything like that in my life and I will be 50 next month.
I think it is good for ministers to follow the dictum that Hippocrates gave to doctors…”First, do no harm.” I have performed many funerals, including those of my own family. The occasion of death affords a minister the opportunity to minister in Christ’s stead to people experiencing great hurt and loss. It must be done with humility, love, and compassion. It seems that the minister you mentioned showed little of any of these.
Even at our best, we ministers are sincere but flawed people, desiring to do our best for God but repeatedly coming face to face with our own humanity. The vast majority of ministers I have encountered, of all denominations, are good, sincere people. There are some ministers, it must be admitted, who leave much to be desired. There are some also, thankfully fewer still, that should not be ministers at all. They fail the Hippocrates test.
I would welcome the opportunity to talk with you more if you would desire it. You can access my email through my blog.
November 24th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
Sincere and flawed is more than sufficient sir. I thank you for your sympathy and wish you the best, but I think it best I do not get into debates of religion.
I hope as you preach, that you value that sincerity more than congregation size. Truly faithful people can accomplish great or terrible things. Hopefully it’s only been the former for you.
November 24th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
Jim,
Thank you for your kind comments. I do value sincerity more than size…as does my congregation. I am deeply saddened by how much the American church has prostituted itself at the altar of success.
God calls us to be faithful. The “success,” however it is defined, must come from Him. It is true that faithful and sincere people can do bad things but that is not from their faithfulness but rather from the sin that plagues us all and sometimes distorts our view of what true faithfulness is.
May God bless you.
November 24th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
The recent dark age in America when sadistic, half insane buffons like ted haggert “participated in white house conference calls” is over. Its true, I dont understand how “people of faith” gravtitate towards people like this as their leaders. I have always had the suspicians that a very large number of rabid right wing evangelical christians have some sort of sexual trauma/abuse in the closet, that serves as the emotinal blast off pad for the , franksly, scary wing nuttery and insane polemical tirades that they engage in. The end has begun for them however and politically they are going to become more and more marginal.
November 24th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
The recent dark age in America when sadistic, half insane buffons like ted haggert “participated in white house conference calls” is over. Its true, I dont understand how “people of faith” gravtitate towards people like this as their leaders. I have always had the suspicians that a very large number of rabid right wing evangelical christians have some sort of sexual trauma/abuse in the closet, that serves as the emotinal blast off pad for the , frankly, scary wing nuttery and insane polemical tirades that they engage in. The end has begun for them however and politically they are going to become more and more marginal.
November 24th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
One mistake that many on the left make is in assuming that evangelicals are some kind of monolithic body with well-defined leaders. That is by no means the case. The vast majority of evangelical Christians had never heard of Ted Haggard. He was the pastor of a mega-church in Colorado that most had not heard of and was the President of the National Association of Evangelicals, a body that most evangelicals had also never heard of.
Most evangelicals share some common political beliefs, especially with regard to abortion and some other moral issues. That is why they vote similarly but there is otherwise much diversity in belief and practice. One thing is undoubtedly true. Evangelical Christians do not follow lock-step behind any leader.
November 24th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
Here’s what leads me away from faith, in all honesty:
My Grandaddy was a Methodist Preacher from Atkins, Arkansas. He was a good man, took care of his family, raised money for the poor and charities, and spoke every day of his love for what God had given him. Which was, a small 2 bedroom house, and a Chevy station wagon.
When my Granddaddy died, we got a new preacher at the Church. “Brother Jim”, who cut down on our charity spending saying we needed it for the church to improve, added a small classroom to the building, and got himself a new Mercedes.
Many of us left the church, but with the money for improvements he got TV advertising, radio spots, and put up ads in the foyer.
We moved around a bit and we get to Nashville after a while. My friends Joel and Jeremy ask me if I’ve been saved, and I go to their church with them. We go to a Baptist Church which will again not be named, where I get along well, memorize the titles of the books to the Bible, and get dunked in a pool and ’saved’. After a while, a girl confides in me that the preacher is doing things to her. I’m conflicted so I go to talk to the Children’s Leader. She talks to the Preacher instead of to the girl or the parents. The preacher hit me the next week in private. Said I’d go to hell if I ever said anything else about him.
I’d be lying if I said it wasn’t hard to try to believe in a god that rewarded my faithful grandfather with a used station wagon and tiny house, and rewarded these sickos with new cars, huge homes and estates, and the like.
I know the eternal reward is supposed to be after your death, but it’d be nice to see some divine retribution on the obvious wickedness of these types of men.
November 24th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
Jim- There is no reasoning behind religion. There are so many contradictions, different ideals, different attitudes and very low tolerance.
You can talk to each individual participant of the different faiths and each person has a different idea of how he/she is supposed to conduct him/herself. Each has a different idea as to what is acceptable for their own deliverance.
Some spread morality around like they were the one that discovered it. Nobody seems to actually know the truths of their own religion, kind of like “playing it by ear” so to speak. What’s good one day may not be good the next. Some religious laws work today and others are inconsiquential. Not all are to be followed just the ones I want to follow. None of it actually makes sense.
I have never met one person that exemplified the spirit in which they preach.
November 24th, 2008 at 6:36 pm
Jim,
I know you are not seeking sympathy but I am so sorry for the terrible experiences you have had from people who positioned themselves as “men of God.” I say “praise God” for your Granddaddy. He was a faithful man. I have nothing but contempt for the others.
For any of us who have been in church for any length of time, we have all seen some men who have used the ministry for their own lusts, whether it is money, sex, or power. When I was a senior in high school, a pastor of mine in Alabama carried on an affair with a girl younger than me. It caused great problems in the church and the girl, now near fifty, has never totally recovered. That is pure evil.
I cannot answer fully why such things happen other than to point to the universality of sin and that some wicked men see the church as a place where they can con their way to prominence. People seem to fall for good salesmen whether they be selling cars or leading a church. However, when you look in the Bible and at church history; rich, famous, and faithful have never gone together.
God’s faithful ministers have usually been despised, rejected and poor. God’s Son certainly was. You cannot find a better example than in 2 Corinthians where the faithful and persecuted Paul is dealing with rejection by the Corinthian church who have thrown him under the bus for some religious con men who were good salesmen. And remember…Paul was ultimately beheaded.
God is the final judge. He does not reward men for evil. Men may con, connive, and lust their way to what looks like success in this world, and even in the church, but it is not success in God’s eyes. I can’t say that I totally understand the timing of God’s judgments other than that he will “by no means clear the guilty” as it says in Ex. 34:7.
Most pastors are like me, leading small congregations and not mega churches. We are just field hands, not overseers, laboring in the Lord’s field until God Himself reaps His harvest.
God bless.
November 24th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
I always wonder when I hear christians thanking “god” for the food on their table…I wonder what the hungry christians (and there are many) did so wrong to piss him off?
The promise that “god will provide” works OK in the affluent west. But it’s not working so well in, say, sub-saharan Africa. This impoverished part of the world is, by far, the fastest growing christian population. And yet for all their praying and singing and faith (and they REALLY REALLY believe, unlike most of you) they still seem to be going hungry and dying of Malaria.
Are they not praying hard enough? Or is your god a racist like many of his followers? Or is he just mean (like many of his followers) Or maybe they deserve less than their over-fed materialistic western counter-parts?
I guess children orphaned by AIDS because the church calls condoms a sin, so women use anal sex as birth control…I guess that’s doing god’s work, is it?
Or maybe, just maybe, there is no god(s) and the church(es) need(s) gullible people in poor nations to keep from fading into extinction?
November 24th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
To Tony Hicks:
I apologize for my generalization based on that rotten apple, Haggard.
He is not suffering enough since his sin is far greater than any price he has paid thus far. He betrayed his parish and his own soul. His people, for right or wrong, believe in his every word, and he knowingly manipulated their beliefs in their faith. I can find few more destructive acts than to manipulate a person’s faith or belief in their faith.
November 24th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
the biggest “sin” that educated clergy do to their parish is lie about what they REALLY believe.
At least progressive United Church ministers have the integrity to call the bible what it is…an ancient text with some good metaphors, and some not-so-good…but not the “un-erring word of god for all time”
And the modern-day Quakers have it right – no priests and anyone can join. Anyone. And they see ‘god’ as inside us…the spirit that draws us together as humanity.
In fact the Society of Friends (Quakers) is the only religion that has scientists in it.
What did Haggard do that was so bad? He had (homosexual) sex, and took (or didn’t) a stimulant that is used by the military (pilots)
What’s funny is how quickly he was thrown under the bus by his peers.
Hypocrits!
November 24th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o
November 24th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
Robert,
No problem. We are all guilty of over-generalizations at times, especially when we are arguing a point.
Haggard abused his position lost his ministry. It seems that the church leadership handled the problem in the right way in the final analysis. Did his congregation believe in him too much? Probably. Christian people generally want to think the best of their ministers and mega-churches are usually built upon individuals with a great amount of personal charisma. Haggard fit that description.
As to whether Haggard has suffered enough, I’ll leave that one to God. I’m concerned that Haggard is doing the same thing that Swaggart did, not submitting to church discipline and trying to start ministry again without any sense of restoration. True repentance in such cases entails “coming clean” and submission to authority other than your own. I don’t really see that in Haggard from what his restoration team is saying.
Sadly, the lack of accountability is a fault of Protestantism in general and independent churches like Haggard’s in particular. I’m saying this as a Protestant.
The ultimate answer to the question is Christianity 101. We are born as sinners and live out that job description in our lives. Our only hope is to receive forgiveness and transformation from the One who came from out of this world to be one of us and thereby save us…Jesus Christ, Son of God.
November 24th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
“..Haggard said though some allegations were exaggerated”
right. because he just snorted the crank and didn’t mainline. or he just took 5″ instead of the full 7″ from the boy toy? or was that an “exaggeration” teddy? Oh right, you must be strictly a top.
Ms. Haggard should get those Hep tests asap.
November 24th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
Tony,
Do not waste your energy on sympathy for me or contempt for those types of people. I am a stronger person for every ill thing that happens to me. While I may not have faith, I generally respect those that do (unless they try like mad to convert people, which I have issue with) and from this albeit limited dialog with you, I tend to believe you are sincere in your beliefs and not of the type of person who will attempt to force your beliefs on others. (I am quite certain that you and I probably would disagree on almost every political and religious philosophy there is)
Again, don’t waste any energy on me or the others, I (according to Christian doctrine) am probably a lost cause, and the others aren’t worth the effort. I don’t even hate them, and as a non-Christian it’s something I can do…;)
The girl, if you want an update, is doing OK now, she is married to a friend of mine in Hermitage, TN and I talk to them about once a year. She has 2 children, and she’s a practicing Lutheran.
I believe in doing good because it makes others happy, and that in turn makes me happy. Some people think that I have to be immoral because I don’t believe in God – that it is impossible to have a concept of good without a deified presence, but I rarely see those people picking up hitchhikers in freezing weather, helping a stranded motorist get gas, or buying a homeless man a sandwich. To many people these individuals are passing glances, to be forgotten in an hour, never to enter their mind again. To me, and to my Grandfather, and my Mother (single mother) and my wife (not technically married), my cousins, my 3 best friends, my Uncle Jim, etc… we see these people and if we have the means, help. Out of the whole lot, only my granddaddy was Christian, but that doesn’t mean we can’t have a moral compass or compassion for those around us. We are all related, theologically through Adam and Eve or other creation story, or scientifically through our species genetics, so regardless of your beliefs, you can believe that all of humanity is one family.
Sorry, I guess I’m more related to the old preacher than I thought. Bit long winded today.
November 24th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
It’s interesting that here we see a great example of an evangelical and an agnostic, “joining hands across the sea”…
It’s obvious though, that Hicks is an experienced evangelical preacher: he seems to know how to pick his battles, hedge his bets and pick a winner!
By completely ignoring my posts, this preacher is giving you (and there are many that read but don’t post – one or 2 may even agree with me) an example of what the fundamentalist religious folk do…Ignore any criticism and just soldier on!
You’re both extending the agnostic olive branch to each other…mumbling about “leaving it to god” or else slagging the “Protestants”…lol
…and ignoring ole fRosTy like the elephant in the room!
:-)
Hey Padre Hicks…
You say: “We are born as sinners”
Oh yeah?
What exactly does this mean? C’mon!!
At age 7 or so we decide, on our own, that there is no Santa/tooth fairy/Great Pumpkin/.
All I ask is for you to let your children make up their own minds…
Cheers
jp
November 24th, 2008 at 11:23 pm
Atheists and Agnostics make up 9 to 14% of the population, yet represent only 1/2 of 1% of the prison population.
Seem pretty ethical for a group.
November 25th, 2008 at 12:13 am
I think actions are not based on belief so much as empathy for others.
I hate the ones who think that since they believe in God they can do whatever and it’ll be just fine because they were faithful, meanwhile lots of people get hurt in their wake.
Clearly this doesn’t apply to all, probably not even a third of religious people, but that it applies at all is a bit disheartening.
One message that can be found in the Bible is just so logically true that it supercedes everything else: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Golden Rule, first grade stuff here. That’s simple logic, if it’s something that would hurt you, it won’t be pleasant if you do it to someone else.
November 25th, 2008 at 1:11 am
Mr. Frosty,
I ignored your obvious goading because I wanted to avoid a pointless and contrived argument. If you want to seriously discuss Christian theology or the human experience vis a vis religion and God, I am certainly game for it. However, I’m not about trying to score emotional debate points on an online forum. Jim and I were having a serious discussion that fell out of the experience of both of us. Some of our experiences actually intersected but we have ultimately come to different conclusions.
Jim,
I do not consider you a lost cause. I will not try to convert you because that is not your wish. I will respect that but I won’t consider you a lost cause.
You are right that there are a lot of “religious” people who are not truly sincere with their “faith.” Some of those do great harm to others even as they are loudly proclaiming their faith. Even those of us who are sincere in what we believe must acknowledge that we fall short of what we should be. True faith will be accompanied by good works if it is sincere. However, all our good works, while commendable, are not enough by themselves to raise us up to God’s holiness.
Jim, I wish you well. With all our other similarities, you seem to be another Southern boy up in the northeast. Been there, done that, lost the t shirt.
November 25th, 2008 at 8:31 am
The best part about living around yankees is that they get utterly shocked and distrustful around people who exhibit the slightest bit of ‘Southern Hospitality’.
Some lady tried to tip me at a bowling alley because I held the door open for her. People are odd. Oh well, celebrate it!
Now my favorite T-Shirt says “WELCOME TO NEW JERSEY – Now Go Home” with “NEW JERSEY, WHERE THE WEAK ARE KILLED AND EATEN” a close second.
November 25th, 2008 at 9:10 am
I think the main problem is when we start treating the church as a showroom instead of a salvage yard. It is full of the broken who are being restored by the Savior. Jesus said he came to heal the sick, that the well do not need a doctor. He came to save sinners, not perfect men. Churches are all full of sinners, saved by grace through faith. The sinners in the church are the same as the sinners outside the church except for one thing, they claim salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. A real Christian will never pretend to be better than the lost person on the street. The apostle Paul called himself the chief of sinners. Come one, this guy was used by God to pen basically half of the New Testament; yet he kept the correct perspective of himself.
Anyone who parades themselves about as a perfect example is setting up their followers for great disappointment and embarrassment. There is one head to the church, and that’s Jesus. Not a Pope or a guy in Colorado who’s leading an evangelical group +75% of evangelicals have never even heard of. God has charged those He has redeemed with the task of sharing the Good News. Some seem to forget that they’re not the Good News, they’re just to be the messenger.
Nothing makes genuine, humble, Christians more angry than self-elevated “evangelical leaders” who not only don’t even attempt to practice what they preach, but actually use their position to do harm. At the same time, we know we are too sinners and feel great grief for Ted and the pain he’s going through. I wish for him to be restored to the body, not the ministry, but the body.
To those that do not believe. I’ll admit that based on what I believe the Bible says, if you die in your current state you will go to Hell. That pains me. I will not make trite arguments to try to convince of the supremacy of my position. It’s not my job to save you or make you whole. Paul said that he planted seeds, his co-worker Apollos watered them, but God gave the increase. Maybe today I can plant a few seeds, or maybe I can water some that someone else planted long before me; but God will be the one to reveal himself to you. When He does, make your choice to accept The Way, The Truth, and The Life. He longs to impute His Son’s righteousness to you in exchange for your faith. If you do not make that choice to open the door when He knocks we’ll each remain where we stand today. Either way, you are not my enemy. You are my fellow human, made in the image of God. Because of that you are priceless and loved.
Hope you all have a good day.
November 25th, 2008 at 10:27 am
The ‘Golden Rule’ like much of the bible, was borrowed (as in plagiarized) from other, older religions.
Confucius said similar things a thousand years earlier.
November 25th, 2008 at 6:46 pm
Weaver:
Well said! You encapsulated the true nature of Christianity very well.
November 25th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
Yes Weaver! Very well said. I agree with what you said whole-heartedly.
As far as Ted Haggart is concerned…do the right thing…put a bullet in your own head Ted:)
November 25th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
Certainly he did, but that doesn’t make it any less relevant. It’s a central theme in most religions, one that many people sadly ignore.
It’s still a noble ideal, and to those people that pursue that ideal with sincerity, and their faith with sincerity, I wish them the best of everything. The few truly sincere Christians that I’ve met are wonderful people, and use God as an emotional healing tool. “Use” God is a bad choice of words, but hopefully that won’t offend anyone and they’ll get what I mean.
Weaver and Tony, Kudos to you for your posts and presence.
Off topic, somewhat religious side-note:
My mechanic is an evangelical, nice guy, but one day my buddy left a pentacle hanging on my rear-view mirror. The guy asked me if I was a satanist and we got into a long discussion, the gist of which was that if I didn’t believe in ’satan’ I could hardly be a satanist. He asked me why I would let a pentacle hang in my car – “My friend borrowed the car, he’s a practicing Wiccan. I hold no religious preference.”
I give him my car and there’s a cross hanging from the same chain when I get back. So I left it there. Currently, there is a cross, a pentacle, star of david, star and crescent, yin and yang, a Jain hand and a little Buddha foot. Granted I’m missing quite a lot, but after a while I suspect I’ll end up breaking the rear-view mirror off. There are many people willing to give me a new piece for the collection.
Celebrate diversity and tolerance.
November 26th, 2008 at 10:29 am