Which Religions Should The Government Endorse This Christmas?
Why do religious groups need to have their theology stated on state property? Do they need government approval to sanctify their faith? Does it make them feel better that Big Brother gives his blessing?
In Olympia Washington, an atheist group placed its message next to a Christian Nativity scene and a “holiday tree”. It reads:
“At this season of the Winter Solstice may reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds.”
The sign is a placeholder until the message the group truly wants to display arrives, which is to keep church and state separate.
In 2006, when a menorah was displayed, a Christian group asked the state to sponsor a nativity scene. State lawmakers denied the request, saying they didn’t have time to wade through requests from religious groups to offer government endorsement. Then why did they allow the menorah?
This year there is a Nativity Scene and the atheist message, but no menorah was requested. Either every religion should have placement, or none. And if you truly have faith, you don’t need government imprimatur.
Oh Please….let us not go there…good grief. **Robert looks around for Bill O the Clown**
We don’t need to mess with all this Christmas War myth.
Just don’t put religious symbols on public land and we’re all good. You don’t put religious symbols in my face on public land or buildings, and I won’t wave my black flag with the crossed bones in yours.
December 2nd, 2008 at 12:12 pm
I’m a freak for holidays of any sort, so bring on the nativity scenes, menorrah, wiccan, hindu, moslem and Festivus symbols. Separation of church and state usually rocks my world, but if all of ‘em are represented, it’s fine by me.
There’s a frustrated Martha Stewart with limited craft capabilities struggling to break free inside me, so I offer a solution for all public buildings. Consider it my Chanukah/Christmas/Kwanzaa/Just Because gift.
Take pine roping, and decorate it with blue lights and Stars of David (for Chanukah), throw in some Kwanzaa corn, Ganesha statues (Hindu), lambs for Eid al-Adha, etc. etc. and you have it made. All under an atheist banner of, “And if all else fails, let’s just all try to be nice to each other…Just because it’s nice….”
December 2nd, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Please, make a Griswald palace of your house…paint your dog red and green…no…paint the kids instead…they probably would like it more. LOL
Sarah, ya warms me dark heart, Lass….May your holidays be filled with joy and happiness!!!
Sincerely,
Robert Cockroach Blair
“Hard to catch and impossible to kill”
December 2nd, 2008 at 12:25 pm
…And little white skulls-and-crossbones for The Dread Pirate Robert Blair.
Avast ye scurvy dogs! Hoist the bough over the yardarm, for ye’re bound for the rocky shoals of Separation of Church and State! Arrgh!
December 2nd, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Christmas is a..lets see….christan maybe holiday. The goverment already endorses this by declaring it a national day. If your affraid of the word “christ”mas then change the day to “winter holiday where stuff happened and its cold outside”
December 2nd, 2008 at 12:50 pm
Hello,
I see no problem with having a CHRISTMAS type symbol sitting in a public place. After all nobody is being forced to look at it, and by all means if you do not want to look at it cross the street, and go about your business.
Thanks,
Larry D. Crumbley
bearone7777@yahoo.com
December 2nd, 2008 at 1:24 pm
See? Larry’s down with the Christmas/Ramadan/Atheist symbols, too!
Side Note, Weirdest Xmas Decs I’ve Ever Seen:
A rural cemetery, where someone had festooned their loved one’s plot with all manner of holiday ornamentation, including tree, tinsel, and a sign reading, “Santa, Stop Here!”
It was kinda touching, in a way. I wanted desperately to take a picture, but thought it might be unseemly.
December 2nd, 2008 at 1:30 pm
Lmaoooo festivus for the rest of us!!!! Happy Holiday, Merry Xmas, etc… to ALL. Especially you Sarah who just makes me laugh. Label me anything just dont forget the cookies, egg nog, and my favorite bottle of 12yr. old scotch.
December 2nd, 2008 at 2:07 pm
The bible forbids Christmas trees but you’d never know it around here.
December 2nd, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Why do religious groups need to have their theology stated on state property?
Why does anyone need to say anything at all in the public square?
Why do religious groups need to have their theology stated on state property?
We have protected free speech and as such we have the right to promote our views, religious or otherwise.
Does it make them feel better that Big Brother gives his blessing?
Wow. It makes me feel better to know that I have the freedom to express my religious beliefs; maybe what you advocate is the elimination of protected speech?
And if you truly have faith, you don’t need government imprimatur.
How thoughtful of you to make this decision for me.
December 2nd, 2008 at 2:19 pm
I think the whole ‘controversy’ over Christmas trees and nativity scenes is just a common sense deficiency.
I’ve got no problems whatsoever with either of them. The note by the atheist is just someone wanting to stir up trouble, in my opinion. The trees/nativity scenes are celebrating a holiday, the note is just someone looking for a fight.
Sure, we can get technical/argumentative and look for church/state violations – or we can all take a deep breath and admit that there are bigger problems to hunt down than whether a Nativity scene is displayed on public property or not.
December 2nd, 2008 at 2:34 pm
And if you truly have faith, you don’t need government imprimatur.
im•pri•ma•tur
Official approval or license to print or publish, especially under conditions of censorship.
It would seem we struggle against those who would censor free speech and advocate for the removal of God from the public square, if you truly have faith you will proclaim Him
And if you truly have faith, you don’t need government imprimatur.
Maybe you should have written;
“and if we are truly free, we don’t need government imprimatur”
December 2nd, 2008 at 2:36 pm
The nativity scene, besides being inaccurate, gives the impression that it’s government endorsed, when it’s on public/government property.
That’s the problem.
Either it all comes in(including the sign) or none of it come in.
The sign isn’t ‘new’. That sign has been displayed in the Wisconsin Capital building for years.
December 2nd, 2008 at 3:10 pm
The nativity scene, besides being inaccurate, gives the impression that it’s government endorsed, when it’s on public/government property.
That’s the problem.
But, let’s face it, it isn’t much of a problem, is it?
December 2nd, 2008 at 3:48 pm
“Christmas is a..lets see….christan maybe holiday. The goverment already endorses this by declaring it a national day. If your affraid of the word “christ”mas then change the day to “winter holiday where stuff happened and its cold outside”
Posted by Seperate man
December 2nd, 2008 at 12:50 pm”
Okay, and this is where we start the absolutely stupid stuff…..Fine…you want to start that..let’s change the name…now, you can argue that to the end of the thread…..you see, you don’t have to …you could just leave it all alone…but,no…you gotta stir it up…well….”away we go”
December 2nd, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Eh, we like to THINK it’s not much of a problem. But I can guarantee you, I know quite a few Jewish people who might not publically make a big deal out of it, but it is, to them, a big deal.
I’m with Boogie. Let’s bring it all in, or leave it all out.
For pete’s sake, I thought my garish pine-roping idea had solved the problem once and for all!
Merry Kwanzukah.
December 2nd, 2008 at 3:57 pm
A perfectly liberal posture is to allow the status quo to be the status quo and allow churches to publicly display their stuff on their property. We’ll allow political material in the town square. You want to put your church stuff in my town square and I will come to your church and we’ll have a demonstration next to the alter for same sex marriage and a woman’s right for choice.
December 2nd, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Ooo, Robert Blair, I likey! Nativity scenes on church grounds, and the Crossing the Delaware re-enactments in the public square! Or maybe Pearl Harbor (quick! It’ll be here on Sunday!)?
December 2nd, 2008 at 4:05 pm
Sarah,
I know quite a few Jewish people who might not publically make a big deal out of it, but it is, to them, a big deal.
I have never had a Jewish friend comment about it to me. Have you had many Jewish friends comment on it, or are you assuming they would have a problem with it? (just curious, not being snarky).
Are there any posters out there *personally* offended by a nativity scene on public property? Most folks who argue against them seem to be arguing on behalf of others, just curious how many folks are personally offended by them.
December 2nd, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Robert,
I’m not trying to change your mind, but I have a few questions for you because I am curious as to why someone would be opposed to these types of displays.
I’m guessing from many of your posts you are an atheist, I’ll take another guess and assume you celebrate Christmas on some level. Presumably you view the bible as mythology – is it offensive to you to see that myth portrayed in a nativity scene? When you see one, does it honestly bother you to see it?
Since we have had them forever in the US, I see these displays as having an American cultural value for all Americans separate from any religious value that they have to some folks.
December 2nd, 2008 at 4:54 pm
Say, Alan, can you kindly point to the spot within the Constitution where it states anything about a separation between church and state?
December 2nd, 2008 at 4:58 pm
I have Jewish friends and two Jewish neighbors who live across the street from me. They do Hannukah, we do Christmas. They don’t say a word about nativity scenes, crosses, trees, etc. I don’t care if they pop a menorrah up, etc.
I have a friend who is an atheist and they really don’t give a rip one way or the other what we do, what we believe or how we celebrate Christmas.
If you don’t believe in anything then why have a problem with others displaying objects that signify their belief? If you don’t think it is real then what’s the harm?
And this Happy Holidays politically correct crap is for the birds. Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah.
December 2nd, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Hi, Um. No snarkiness taken.
“I have never had a Jewish friend comment about it to me. Have you had many Jewish friends comment on it, or are you assuming they would have a problem with it? (just curious, not being snarky).”
Oh, brother. Yes, indeedy. I unwittingly unleashed an avalanche of “Oy gevalt! Spare us!” when I asked my Jewish friends (I was the religious minority in this Jewish sorority, mind you) if we could AT LEAST put up blue Hanukah lights for the holidays?
Here’s what I got:
“Are you kidding me?! They’re still CHRISTMAS lights!” (Yeah, but they’re blue!) “Doesn’t matter!”
“I have to spend my ENTIRE life being surrounded by Christmas, wished ‘Merry Christmas,’ and dealing with not being pulled into the major Christmas takeover of almost every aspect of life outside these four walls, and the LAST thing I want to see when I come home is more Christmas!”
“Ever try to conduct business around the holidays? You can’t! Everything’s closed!”
“Even Hanukkah bushes are BS!”
“Do whatever you want in your room, but we don’t want to see it in our general living areas.”
Point taken.
Mind you, they did the whole menorrah thing which was kinda cool, and I dearly loved playing drinking dreidel, but I really, really missed Christmas decorations, etc., that year.
HOWEVER. It was a real good wake-up call, and I got to experience being in the religious minority, very eye-opening.
I still suspect that some Jews assign more Christian meaning to Christmas stuff than Christians actually do, but hey, it’s not ours to quibble, when it comes to publicly-funded institutions and entities.
So no, it doesn’t bother me to see a creche on public property, but it DOES bother me that it bothers a lot of our fellow American citizens who think they have to stay quiet.
I agree with a few of the prior posters on here: It’s easier to include ALL religions, or exclude them altogether.
December 2nd, 2008 at 5:12 pm
T. Mason,
The issue is having the displays on public vs. private land, and it is a legitimate constitutional issue.
But, it also seems to be a very divisive issue over what I perceive to be nothing. I am fully open to the fact that I may be ignorant of legitimate pain/suffering/etc… nativity scenes cause, which is why I am asking folks questions.
December 2nd, 2008 at 5:12 pm
When did it become an issue? I wonder when the first Christmas trees, nativity scenes etc. were placed on “public” land? I do believe we have Christmas trees in the White House.
Oh dear. the word Christ is in Christmas. maybe we should change them to Holiday trees. We wouldn’t want the most prestigous home in the country offending anyone.
The people who cry the loudest want to force their belief of NOTHING on those who choose to believe in something.
I don’t believe in Hinduism, but I don’t walk around looking for women with red dots between their eyes crying foul. It doesn’t offend me because I am strong enough in my own beliefs NOT to be swayed by others.
December 2nd, 2008 at 5:17 pm
Forgot to say. As far as pain and suffering goes. How powerful a set of plastic statues must be to cause such great pain and suffering.
If we had a bunch of life-sized statues of same sex couples dressed in red satin embracing each other and Christians were yelling to have them taken down it would be called “art” and we would be labeled intolerant.
Hypocrisy.
December 2nd, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Interesting – I gotta admit, I think those girls were being awfully sensitive. I wouldn’t mind a bit being wished Happy Hanukkah – but I’m not in the minority.
Of course, I am in fact in the minority in Brasil, my nickname is often ‘Gringo’. If I were in Mexico, and someone called me Gringo, I would be upset because I would know they had ill intent behind it. In Brasil there is no ill intent behind it and so I don’t get offended.
I would think a Jewish person being wished “Merry Christmas” would think it nice that their neighbor was including them in their celebration, rather than be offended. There is obviously no ill intent behind ‘Merry Christmas’.
Oh well, now I’m trying to argue folks out of being offended when I said I wasn’t going to do that.
December 2nd, 2008 at 5:21 pm
The decorations are pretty and festive. Let’s have them all at their appropriate time of year.
December 2nd, 2008 at 5:28 pm
T. Mason,
You continue to ignore the fact that the issue is over the use of public land. Not over using the words ‘holidays’ or ‘Christmas’.
I agree with you on the fact that nativity scenes on public land are OK, but I sure don’t agree with one bit of your supporting argument. You represent well one side of some weird (to me) desire to make the holiday season divisive.
December 2nd, 2008 at 5:28 pm
Um
Public land is used for a lot of things I don’t agree with.
How am I trying to make it devisive? You do your thing and I’ll do mine. That seems reasonable to me. But that would be too easy for the people who want to pitch a fit about a set of plastic figurines on the courthouse lawn.
December 2nd, 2008 at 5:32 pm
If they’re just “plastic figurines on the courthouse lawn,” with no meaning assigned to them, then it’s no big deal to take them off. Great! Problem solved.
December 2nd, 2008 at 5:37 pm
Seperation of church and state: Removal of the STATE from the CHURCH. Thats it, it doesn’t flow the other way. As long as the state doesn’t declair a relgion, it can put up what ever decrations they want. Placing a christmans tree on public land is not declairing a religon. Oh and “holiday trees”, i don’t see them during the 4th of july and thats a holiday OMA!
December 2nd, 2008 at 5:41 pm
Everybody gets so excited about this and it’s just not a big deal. Christmas or “the holidays”, whatever. There’s no reason why the local courthouse shouldn’t be allowed to have a Christmas tree, but there’s also no reason why there shouldn’t be a menorah displayed as well. I think no matter how liberal or “PC” you are, whether you are Christian, Jewish, atheist, etc. you still love this time of year and one of the reasons for that is seeing all of the decorations. So let’s put this “War on Christmas” to rest and just enjoy the season!
December 2nd, 2008 at 5:44 pm
And let’s be honest, these days, Christmas is a fairly secular holiday. Fox put out a poll a couple of years ago that said that 96% of Americans celebrate Christmas even though only 78% of the population is Christian. This includes people who celebrate Christmas in addition to Hanukkah or Kwanzaa. I don’t think anybody needs to feel threatened by a Christmas tree on public property. It’s not really endorsing a theology, it’s celebrating a cultural festival that is very significant to American culture. Some Americans celebrate it as a religious holiday, but I would wager most (or at least a great deal) do not.
I would have a problem with prayer in public schools or year-round Ten Commandments displays, but come on, you really have to be a grinch to object to a Christmas tree!
December 2nd, 2008 at 5:51 pm
If you don’t believe in God, Mary, Joseph and the meaning Christians celebrate during the Christmas season, then yes they are plastic figures. Right?
So, you shouldn’t mind walking past them if they mean nothing to you.
Maybe the problem is, the very people who claim to want everyone to have freedoms only want freedoms that involve crushing the very beliefs this country was founded on.
Christmas is a federal holiday, just like MLK, Good Friday, etc. This country was founded on Judaeo Christian philosophies and beliefs. Not muslim beliefs, not hindu beliefs not agnostic or atheistic beliefs.
If the KKK put up signs demonstrating against MLK day, another federal holiday, it would be just as assanine as the ones making a big deal about Christmas.
Next year I am boycotting the easter bunny
December 2nd, 2008 at 8:12 pm
Jesus is the reason for the season.
December 2nd, 2008 at 8:17 pm
You can’t have Christmas without Christ
HeHe..couldn’t resist
December 2nd, 2008 at 8:19 pm
Let’s put the X back in Xmas!
December 2nd, 2008 at 9:39 pm
T. Mason,
“This country was founded on Judaeo Christian philosophies and beliefs. Not muslim beliefs, not hindu beliefs not agnostic or atheistic beliefs.”
I was with you until you made this statement. Let’s not rewrite history. While some of the founding fathers were Christians, most of them were not particularly religious, and some of the most notable of them, including Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, were Deists. Abraham Lincoln, the “founding father” of the Republican Party (he would be FURIOUS with the modern Republicans I’m sure) never joined a church in his entire life.
That’s not to say that all of our founding fathers weren’t religious. Many of them were. But to say that this is a “Christian nation” is a whole lotta bunk. It is not and it was never meant to be. In fact, the main reason that most of the colonists settled in America was for religious freedom, not because it was the Christian holy land.
December 2nd, 2008 at 9:50 pm
Michael, you are truly a sick man. Many of Lincoln’s quotes refer to God, and your blatant attempt to rewrite history is an outrage.
Hitler’s rise to power occurred after he was influenced by the writings of Darwin. Everyone that denies God replaces Him with man.
December 2nd, 2008 at 10:22 pm
To anyone who is confused, try watching this debate video of atheist Christopher Hitchens get his clock cleaned.
Take the time, watch the video, form your opinion.
December 2nd, 2008 at 10:32 pm
Tune in Sunday nights at 6 p.m. ET and Monday nights at 8 p.m. ET on DirecTV Channel 378 for our weekly apologetics program called I Don’t Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist, hosted by Dr. Frank Turek.
http://crossexamined.org/tv.asp
December 2nd, 2008 at 10:35 pm
Know this! There is NOTHING in our US Constitution that says: “separation of church and state”……got it!
And Alan, I find you a very rude person who won’t allow anyone to finish what they are saying in reply to your questions. Do you even know the fine art of debate and or conversation? I think not by your history on Hannity and Colmes.
December 2nd, 2008 at 10:44 pm
STEELNPEARLS, none other than Thomas Jefferson felt otherwise. Referring to the First Amendment, Jefferson wrote:
“I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.”
December 2nd, 2008 at 10:49 pm
Truth Seeker,
Very mature of you to call me “a sick man”. Of course Lincoln believed in God. My point was that he wasn’t a Bible-thumping fundamentalist Christian in the mold of the modern day Republican Party. Calm down dude, I’m a Christian and I celebrate Christmas both as a religious and a cultural holiday.
But I have to take issue with Bible thumpers who try to say that “this is a Christian nation founded on Christian values.” America was founded on the basis of escaping governments with established religions (eg., the Church of England) persecuting minority sects like Quakers and the Pilgrims. America was a refuge for people who wanted to practice their faith in peace.
And a good deal of the Founding Fathers were Deists, which means that they believed in God but didn’t subscribe to a particular faith. That’s just a fact.
December 2nd, 2008 at 10:56 pm
Whether or not Jefferson wrote that quote in a letter, it is the opinion of one man. It does not appear in the Federalist Papers, it does not appear in the Constitution, and it does not appear in the Declaration of Independence. Those are the documents the founders agreed upon.
The ‘wall’ of separation between church and state is a fiction and has no basis in law. Enter the Supreme Court building in Washington and look at the carvings in the archway.
December 2nd, 2008 at 10:57 pm
I grew up in Washington state and am proud that this sign is there. Thank God for the Washington governor and the fine people of Washington….Huzzah!!!
oh…and Billo the clown? You are a baffoon!!!
December 3rd, 2008 at 1:10 am
Not that I’m blowing a bugle or announcing a call to arms but this is the religous right. The above statements from a few fundies doesn’t diminish what their call is about. You will abide by their rule (god) or else. A secular nation is just that, let people believe what they choose. Look if your blanket (belief) is a god then by all means cover yourself with it. I choose not to use your blanket. I myself will decide what’s best for me. “Secularists are often wrongly accused of trying to purge religious ideals from public discourse. We simply want to deny them public sponsorship.” Wendy Kaminer
December 3rd, 2008 at 1:40 am
Washington is allowing any group to post signs, displays, trees, what-have-you in their capital rotunda. That is Washington State. It is their way of avoiding any “war on Christmas”crap….and, hopefully, keep Billo the clown away from the state…they are afraid he’d lower the IQ level.
December 3rd, 2008 at 1:51 am
We could change the name back to the original one: saturnalia.
It would be fitting, as almost all the traditions associated with Christmas had their origins in pagan feast days around the winter solstice.
December 3rd, 2008 at 3:21 am
Out of the 3,000 gods man has invented which one do you believe in Truth, just curious.
December 3rd, 2008 at 3:29 am
“The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion”?
Treaty of Tripoli.
Negotiated under Washington, ratified June 7, 1797 after Adams took office.
December 3rd, 2008 at 3:36 am
Michael – “America was founded on the basis of escaping governments with established religions (eg., the Church of England) persecuting minority sects like Quakers and the Pilgrims. America was a refuge for people who wanted to practice their faith in peace.” BS
So they killed almost 50 million Native American Indians, and stole their land, oh how christian?
Been to a church run by Native Americans lately?
Ever bought any US land from a Native American Indian?
December 3rd, 2008 at 3:38 am
Who cares about these displays when the economy is falling apart and people are losing their jobs and homes?? Why are we even talking about this. We should be trying to solve our financial problems.
December 3rd, 2008 at 4:34 am
One other thing, I was very annoyed with Billo when he criticized the Gov. of WA for not dealing with the Atheist sign. The Governor is busy at a Governor’s meeting trying to sort out the state’s financial problems and O’Reilly is calling her names on television? She is doing her job, trying to help people in her state from losing their jobs, etc.
O’Reilly is an IDIOT. ALSO, why is he always on vacation? He should take a permanent vacation. Also, there was an author of a book on Rupert Murdoch giving an interview to Olbermann where he says that Murdoch can’t stand O’Reilly….gee, I wonder why. Fox News needs to evolve….The only shows I like are Shepard Smith, Special Report and Red Eye.
December 3rd, 2008 at 4:38 am
We are supposed to have freedom OF religion, that doesn’t mean freedom FROM religion. I don’t know how you can argue that this country was not founded on Christian principles. What foundation do you think our forefathers used when forming our laws? The 10 commandments were a huge part of that.
As I said earlier, I find it ironic that the same people who will argue that nativity scenes and other Christian/pagan Christmas decorations on public property should not be allowed because it might “offend” someone, are the same people who want to allow artists and others the artistic freedom to do whatever the heck they want on public land.
Ironic and hypocritic.
December 3rd, 2008 at 7:58 am
T. Mason,
The libs don’t seem to be able to figure that out. The
First Amendment gives us Freedom OF Religion. And I quote the First Amendment: “Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion, or PROHIBITING the FREE exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,…”
I can’t find the words “separation of church and state” anywhere in my copy of the Constitution. The libs must have their own copy of the constitution.
They are hypocrites. The so called art of the likeness of Christ in a jar of urine was defended to the death by liberals, even though it offended every christian in this nation, but because the nativity offends them it is all of a sudden unconstitutional. Give me a break.
I gotta go. Hang in there Mason. We can handle anything the libs want to throw at us.
December 3rd, 2008 at 9:44 am
SMC341, outstanding posts. You’d think we’d all have bigger fish to fry, eh?
Willy, “Freedom of Religion” means you’re free to worship in your own home, on your own time, without fear of inquisition or pogrom, among other things.
Why can’t Christians worship in their houses and churches, without disrespectfully pushing it on the rest of the American populace, consuming educational time with it, and tying up our courts with their issues and trying to use everyone else’s tax money to support it?
December 3rd, 2008 at 12:51 pm
“We are supposed to have freedom OF religion, that doesn’t mean freedom FROM religion.”
Can’t have one without the other; two sides of the same coin.
“I don’t know how you can argue that this country was not founded on Christian principles”
To repeat:“The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion”
Treaty of Tripoli.
Negotiated under Washington, ratified June 7, 1797 after Adams took office.
December 3rd, 2008 at 1:35 pm
The separation of Church and State is the overriding principle of the First Amendment.
The ‘father’ of the Constitution says so, as does Jefferson and a couple of other ‘founding fathers’.
That means, folks, that the government shouldn’t endorse religion, or favor one brand over another. As per Supreme Court rulings, shouldn’t give the impression of favoritism, etc.
In other words, is should be NEUTRAL.
You can’t be ‘neutral’ if you allow religious displays on government property.
It’s not like that aren’t enough churches and private property to display such things.
December 3rd, 2008 at 1:41 pm
First of all “separation of church and state” has not been stated as such in the Constitution. “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..” This is the concept or the intent of that ammendment. This phrase has been quoted by the U.S. Supreme Court many times. While “fair trial” isn’t either in the Constitution,it reads, “speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury” but we understand it to have the concept or intent of a fair trial.
Furthermore this post is not arguing public property, but government property, if all religions are not acknowledged, then none should be.
By the way, jesus most likely was not born in December. Nowhere in the bible is it recorded that a festival or great feast was held to celebrate his birth. It wasn’t until the 5th century the christians adopted this date as a feast to celebrate christs’ birth.
This was originally a pagan holiday celebrated with singing naked house to house, eating, drinking and sexual indulgence.
Christmas is a tradition of men and actually dishonors your god. If you read your bible Matthew 15:9, Mark 7:9; Jeremiah 10:2-5 talks of adorning a tree. Matthew 2:11 The gifts were brought unto him. They didn’t give gifts to each other.
I was told once, you had to be a christian to understand the meaning of christmas. As christ was never really the source of christmas I don’t see how this is true. As for myself, as an athiest, I am not concerned about others’ religion, feel free to exercise your beliefs as you wish. My concept of christmas is keeping the myth of santa alive for my children. The idea of sharing and caring for your fellow man. Helping and giving to the ones that need it the most. There’s no need to be religious to be involved with that. This is what christmas is about to me.
December 3rd, 2008 at 2:14 pm
Tuesday, January 1 New Year’s Day
Monday, January 21 Birthday of Martin Luther King, Jr.
Monday, February 18* Washington’s Birthday
Monday, May 26 Memorial Day
Friday, July 4 Independence Day
Monday, September 1 Labor Day
Monday, October 13 Columbus Day
Tuesday, November 11 Veterans Day
Thursday, November 27 Thanksgiving Day
Thursday, December 25 Christmas Day
This is a list of Federal Holidays.
Let’s ban sparklers, baby new year, father time, images of MLK, take Washington off our money, not put flags on graves on Memorial Day, no fireworks or flags on 4th of July, Noone gets the day off for Labor Day, forget Columbus, Don’t thank our veterans, ban any images of turkeys, pilgrims or indians in our schools and our public properties during thanksgiving and of course of course no Christmas trees, nativity scenes, or any other “Christmas” time decorations.
If you don’t believe in one or more of these federal holidays that have been celebrated and observed for eons, you might be offended by one or more images of the above listed items.
We wouldn’t want that.
December 3rd, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Who says I never change my mind? I just have, after reading all the nonsensical blather of the conservatives and religious right.
At first, I advocated an “all-religions-or-no-religions” approach to religious themese on PUBLIC (i.e., TAX-PAYER supported) property. But now I see, there’s just no way to appease rabid Christians and neocons who’d rather bicker and divide than share the country with others or respect individuals’ religious sensibilities, or lack thereof.
Take ‘em off. Take ‘em all off.
And cut out the quibbling so we can actually, I don’t know, concentrate on easing America’s suffering.
December 3rd, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Frank from Jonestown,
“So they killed almost 50 million Native American Indians, and stole their land, oh how christian?
Been to a church run by Native Americans lately?
Ever bought any US land from a Native American Indian?”
I agree with you, the Native Americans have been treated horribly throughout most of American history, though I’m not sure I follow your point about how my statement of America being a beacon of religious freedom is “BS”. I was trying to make the point that this is NOT a “Christian nation”.
December 3rd, 2008 at 4:55 pm
T. Mason
“Tuesday, January 1 New Year’s Day
Monday, January 21 Birthday of Martin Luther King, Jr.
Monday, February 18* Washington’s Birthday
Monday, May 26 Memorial Day
Friday, July 4 Independence Day
Monday, September 1 Labor Day
Monday, October 13 Columbus Day
Tuesday, November 11 Veterans Day
Thursday, November 27 Thanksgiving Day
Thursday, December 25 Christmas Day
This is a list of Federal Holidays.
Let’s ban sparklers, baby new year, father time, images of MLK, take Washington off our money, not put flags on graves on Memorial Day, no fireworks or flags on 4th of July, Noone gets the day off for Labor Day, forget Columbus, Don’t thank our veterans, ban any images of turkeys, pilgrims or indians in our schools and our public properties during thanksgiving and of course of course no Christmas trees, nativity scenes, or any other “Christmas” time decorations.
If you don’t believe in one or more of these federal holidays that have been celebrated and observed for eons, you might be offended by one or more images of the above listed items.
We wouldn’t want that.”
The reason that people make an issue over Nativity scenes and whatnot is that it is religious imagery. All of the rest of the federal holidays are secular. Christmas is the only religious federal holiday.
I guess technically there’s a “separation of church and state” issue there, but I don’t think most Americans object to it because almost all Americans, regardless of faith, celebrate Christmas as a cultural American holiday anyway.
I agree with you and others here that it’s not a big deal if the local courthouse has a Christmas tree or a Nativity scene. All I’m saying is that if they’re going to have that, they should have a Menorah or something like that as well so that it doesn’t look like the government is endorsing a particular faith.
Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah to all!
December 3rd, 2008 at 5:01 pm
[...] Which Religions Should The Government Endorse This Christmas? [...]
December 4th, 2008 at 10:39 am
You’ll notice that the bible thumpers tapped danced around the question:
“Why do religious groups need to have their theology stated on state property? ?
They often respond with ‘free speach’; which is nonsence.
Rev. Mason, or Rev. Trees can have a crech on their lawn all year round if they wish; they can build an alter in there back yard if they want; they can erect a huge cross on their roof if they’d like. As long as they don’t disturb the neighbors, have at it. They can print up pamphlets, buy whole pages in the local papers, buy time on radio and TV stations to get their ‘message’ out.
They don’t NEED to use government property. Unless, of course, they WANT to give the impression that the government does endorse THEIR religion to the exclusion of all others.
The ‘free speach’ arguement also applys to those with contrary views.
December 4th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
“Why can’t Christians worship in their houses and churches, without disrespectfully pushing it on the rest of the American populance, consuming educational time with it, and tying up our courts with their issues and trying to use everyone else’s tax money to support it?”……Posted by Sarah, Dec.3
By your comments you agree with me when I say the same thing about the gays tying up our courts, and using our tax dollars to support their cause. They also desrespectfully push their cause on the American populance.
The Constitution does not say we have the “Freedom of Religion” ONLY if we practice it in our homes or our churchs. Where did you read that?
The Constitution does not forbid us from practicing our Christian beliefs anywhere or anytime. What it forbids is for the government to ESTABLISH A STATE RELIGION OR CHURCH. Because a judge or mayor or some government official posts the Ten Commandments, for example, in their office or courtroom is not a breach of the Constitution. It doesn’t say that anywhere in the Constitution.
December 5th, 2008 at 9:01 am
And by allowing religion on public grounds, it IS, in effect, ESTABLISHING A STATE RELIGION OR CHURCH.
Again, my question remains unanswered:
Why can’t Christians worship in their houses and churches, without disrespectfully pushing it on the rest of the American populance, consuming educational time with it, and tying up our courts with their issues and trying to use everyone else’s tax money to support it?
December 5th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
I’d blame activist atheists (who are a religion unto themselves) for tying up the courts over nativity scenes.
Seriously, we torture people as a matter of US policy, we put more people to death than anybody but China, and people want to take THIS issue to court?
December 5th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Atheism is in no way a religion.
It’s not generally Atheists fighting these ‘Church/State’ issues. It’s mostly religious folks that are defending the Separation of Church and State.
AND once again: You can’t have freedom OF religion unless you also have freedom FROM religon. Two sides of the same coin.
December 6th, 2008 at 12:27 am
If atheism is a religion then health is a disease. can’t remember whos quote. Anyway hows you Um and the brazilian weather?
December 6th, 2008 at 1:08 am
“If Atheism is a religion, then health is a disease!”
Clark Adams
“If Atheism is a Religion… Then Bald is a Hair Color”
Austin Cline
December 6th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Hey Sarah, I answered your question. Apparently you don’t like my answer. Tell me what you want the answer to be and I’ll post it, ok.
December 6th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Public schools do not endorse christianity in any way. There are elective courses in high school that cover religion. ELECTIVE courses in public high schools. Not mandatory. My kids attend public school and they can’t even sing Christmas carols anymore. Their band concert song list doesn’t have anything with the word “Christmas” in it. Why? so they don’t offend anyone.
If you claim that putting a nativity scene up at a courthouse is pushing religion on people then I want billboards taken down that are on the sides of the interstates that I helped pay for that are forcing me to buy cigaretes and alcohol. I also want muslims to stop wearing headresses in places that receive my tax money because I find it offensive. Let’s force businesses with the word Christmas in them to close down because not everyone celebrates Christmas. let’s force Walmart to stop selling Christmas cards that have nativity scenes on the front because someone who doesn’t want to see it might walk down that aisle and get offended.
Please note the above paragraph is full of sarcasm and is not how I really feel. GROW UP PEOPLE.
Give me a break. Are we all gonna have to walk on eggshells for the rest of our lives? If you don’t believe in God, Christmas, etc. then how is a nativity scene “threatening” to you? I am not threatened by religious symbols that don’t pertain to Christianity.
And just to set the record straight. WHO might I ask is tying up the court system over this nativity scene stuff? NOT the Christians…..the ones who have the problem with the display.
December 6th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
I might add, by the way. the moment we tell a relgion that they can’t worship in public we are no better than any other country who persecutes their people by forcing them NOT to have a religion.
December 6th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Great job T. Mason!! Don’t they have to worship in their own homes or apartments in COMMUNIST CHINA? Didn’t they have to worship in their own homes in COMMUNIST RUSSIA, AKA SOVIET UNION? Don’t they have to worship in their own homes in the TOTALITARIAN STATE OF NORTH KOREA? All looking over their shoulders in fear of the STATE catching them.
December 6th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
What say you Sarah?
December 6th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
Nice exageration and spin there guys.
The point being, since you miss(or avoided) it earlier, is that having religious displays on government property gives the impress of indorsement. THAT s what the problem is.
All in or all out.
Can’t have it both ways.
December 6th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
If atheism is a religion then health is a disease. can’t remember whos quote. Anyway hows you Um and the brazilian weather?
There are atheists who evangelize atheism just as strongly as some Christians evangelize Christianity.
The weather is fantastic – I spent three weeks in miserable, cold Europe, and came home to sunny 75 degree days. I’m on vacation until next year – hitting the beach next week.
(not that I’m rubbing it in)
(OK, I’m rubbing it in)
Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah
December 6th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
The point being, since you miss(or avoided) it earlier, is that having religious displays on government property gives the impress of indorsement.
Well, it just gives me the impression that a big holiday that most Americans celebrate, Christian and non, is just around the corner and there are some symbols of the story behind the holiday that cheer me up a little when I see them.
December 6th, 2008 at 8:48 pm
boogie,
I don’t hear anyone telling any other religion they can’t put their stuff up. Do you? The nativity scene is there, the atheist sign is there. so what’s the beef?
FORCING people to NOT be able to demonstrate their faith in public is just as wrong as forcing a faith on someone (which by the way, simply putting a nativity scene up is NOT forcing anyone to believe or do anything)
December 6th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
Well, Rev. Mason, most other religions are arogant or insecure enough to want to give the impression that the government endorses their beliefs.
It seems only some Christians are that desparate in their quest to recruit.
For the third time, the problem is that it gives the imression of endorsement or an appearance of being the ‘official’, government sponsored religion.
December 7th, 2008 at 2:50 am
For the third time, the problem is that it gives the imression of endorsement or an appearance of being the ‘official’, government sponsored religion.
Bah. It just gives the impression that it is almost Christmas, a holiday that almost everybody has off & celebrates in some way, religious or not.
December 7th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
[...] Which Religions Should The Government Endorse This Christmas? [...]
December 13th, 2008 at 4:12 am
[...] Which Religions Should The Government Endorse This Christmas? [...]
December 16th, 2008 at 8:21 am