Rick Warren Says Gays Should Reign In Their Natural Impulses: “It’s Part Of Character”
December 19th, 2008, 10:08 AM EST
While I applaud Barack Obama for his inclusiveness by inviting Rick Warren to give the invocation at his inauguration, it should not go without note that Warren’s views on homosexuality are archaic and insulting to gays.
Warren: Why should I reign in my natural impulses? And you say, well just because I have natural impulses toward the same sex, I shouldn’t have to reign them in. Well, I disagree. I think that’s part of maturity; I think that’s part of delayed gratification; I think that’s part of character.
h/t Americablog
Hey, look for the silver lining, Alan. He called them ‘natural impulses’. So he has admitted being gay is perfectly natural. Hopefully this will convince others!
The celibacy thing he is advocating is far less interesting than the fact that he finds it natural to be gay.
Hey Warren, You go girl!
December 19th, 2008 at 10:22 am
A great invite,but can,t teach a old dog new tricks. That 1 comment about him having impulses towards women. I wonder if he meant it? That lady is fine.
December 19th, 2008 at 10:31 am
Too Bush and Cheney didn’t show some character and reign THEIR impulses.
December 19th, 2008 at 10:33 am
Mr. Warren has 3 children, so obviously HE doesn’t reign in HIS natural impulses. Unless, of course, he’s yet another one of these closeted gay ministers.
Either way, he’s a hypocrite.
I have no problem with Pres. Obama engaging people like him to work in cooperation on issues where they are in agreement, but giving him such a prominent place at the inauguration legitimizes his position of exclusion.
December 19th, 2008 at 10:41 am
I personally do not find Pastor Warren’s comments here offensive. I do not agree with them but that does not automatically make them offensive. He is correct in saying we all of biological impulses that we need to show restraint with. He just groups them differently then I do. What I don’t see him doing that gives me issues with allot of evangelicals is using hateful language that de-humanizes gay people. As Barrack said we are never all going to agree on all the issues. We need to be able to disagree in a way that is not disagreeable.
December 19th, 2008 at 10:59 am
I agree with you PLACEFIELD. We need aunited nation as well.
December 19th, 2008 at 11:36 am
I continue to hope that Obama IS a genius. Because he does help build something of a bridge to this, the more not totally whacked out of the Evangelicals relatively speaking. At the same time, clips like this and going to be dug out all over the world and people of average plus intelligence are going to watch this fat F#*k talk about impulses and multiple-partners as a way to not answer the question. Gruesome.
December 19th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
A paster not agreeing with the gay lifestyle, that accounts for over 99% of them. Maybe he could get a fake paster that picks and chooses what to believe. Now for Warren to say very offensive comments towards gays is not called for, nor writtin in his faith.
Why don’t people just do the simple and logical thing to solve this problem. Just come up with another word for marrage and give it ALL the same rights. Also, you will not be insulting in asking where his “wife” is at.
December 19th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
Just come up with another word for marrage and give it ALL the same rights.
Because there are plenty of gay folks already getting married in religious marriage ceremonies. They are already married, the religious part is not the problem.
The problem is the government doesn’t grant the same rights and responsibilities to those married folks as to heterosexual married folks.
It is a civil thing, not a religious thing.
December 19th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
As a heterosexual male I have the right to get married – If I were a homosexual male I would not have that right – separate but unequal is wrong – plain and simple
My last wife – may she rest in peace – was an African American – at one point – not so long ago – that marriage would have not been permitted – here’s the deal – NOBODY is telling a minister, rabbi, iman, etc. that hey HAVE to perform a marriage ceremony that goes against their religious beliefs BUT the state is different – a marriage at the local city hall can be a non-religious one
December 19th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
UM CARA—You said, “It is a civil thing, not a religious thing.” So why won’t are the majority of those practicing homosexuality not ok with civil unions?
CHARLES—Men and women who practice homosexuality absolutely have the right to marry. Admittedly, in most states they cannot marry of the same gender, but they can marry none-the-less.
Also, similar question for you as to Um Cara. If people are going to marry without any religious acknowledgement or influence, then why not be ok with civil unions and call it a day?
December 19th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Now if only we could get Christian ministers to reign in their “natural impulses” to rape little boys, to amass huge piles of money for their tax-free mansions, to impose their beliefs on helpless victims of failed post-colonial African states, and to round up Jews, homosexuals and the disabled into gas chambers – then maybe we would have a better world.
December 19th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
I was finally able to see this clip. I don’t see what is so hateful about it.
He used no derogatory language. He didn’t say anything about God homosexuals.
He simply said that people need to control their impulses. He included himself as a person who also needs to control his impulses. And, he correctly identifies that controlling impulses is a sign of maturity. I have impulses to spend all I earn. Instead, I show maturity and save and invest a bit of it.
I really don’t see what is hateful about this clip, other than some of the nonsense being directed at Mr. Warren.
December 19th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
Sorry, should be he didn’t say anything about God HATING homosexuals. I left out hating. My apologies.
December 19th, 2008 at 3:04 pm
UM CARA—You said, “It is a civil thing, not a religious thing.” So why won’t are the majority of those practicing homosexuality not ok with civil unions?
CHARLES—Men and women who practice homosexuality absolutely have the right to marry. Admittedly, in most states they cannot marry of the same gender, but they can marry none-the-less.
Also, similar question for you as to Um Cara. If people are going to marry without any religious acknowledgement or influence, then why not be ok with civil unions and call it a day?
TRA – because a marriage is a marriage – if it’s all the same why not do away with term except for religious ones
December 19th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
I think that all of you are missing the point, including Rick Warren. The argument that the reporter made, from a Christian perspective, is faulty. It will never be proven that homosexuality is biological. How do I know? Because God said so in His word the Bible. So don’t argue with Warren. Argue with God. At the very least, have a mind of your own and read what Romans chapter 1 says. I know that the Liberal Messiah says that this is an obscure passage. But who are you going to listen to, Obama or God? The point that needs to be understood is that any, and I repeat any sexual relationship outside of marriage (God’s idea of marriage)is unacceptable in God’s eyes. Why? Because He told man to take one woman and become one flesh. The one woman part is important to the heterosexual. The one flesh is important to the homosexual. A homosexual relationship cannot result in the two becoming one flesh (having a child). That is why it can never be the same in God’s eyes. God is not angry with the homosexual’s sin because they are seeking a loving relationship with another human being. He is angry because they are accepting second best. They are taking something very special that God made for them and twisting it. They are working against the fabric of what God wanted for man, which is to go forth and multiply and enjoy the world He created for us. I think that many on the more liberal side miss the point with Evangelicals. We don’t hate homosexuals. We hate sin because God hates sin. Does that mean we never sin. I wish that were so. But it is not. Wew are not perfect. We are forgiven. And you can receive forgiveness as well. Ask Pastor Rick how. I think he can tell you.
December 19th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
If you think that same sex marriage is wrong, fine. I am not going to argue with you about that, it is your belief. If someone else feels the need to marry a same sex partner, what is the big deal? How does that affect you? It doesn’t, but not letting them get married most certainly affects them. I am tired of seeing all the quotes from the bible to defend this stance. I personally do not choose to believe in the bible. That is my choice. Someone else may believe but interpret differently. That is there choice. Why should your understanding dictate anybody else’s life? Live and let live man.
December 19th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Pastor Rick Warren’s view on gays is not archsic nor insulting. God Himself calls homosexuality an abomination. God’s views never change. The Bible is not a living, breathing document that changes over time to fit the times. It it did what good would it be.
I found nothing offensive with his comments. He holds the same views on same sex “marriage” as Obama.
December 19th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Pastor Rick Warren’s view on gays is not archsic nor insulting. God Himself calls homosexuality an abomination. God’s views never change.
Posted by Willy
…………………………………..
That’s YOUR opinion, and it’s fine, but not everybody believes that.
December 19th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
God Himself calls homosexuality an abomination.
I have already proven once today that I am not a biblical scholar, so anyone who knows better – please correct me.
But isn’t the only place in the bible where God talks in the first person is when Jesus is quoted? And I’m pretty sure he never said homosexuality was an abomination.
December 19th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
He holds the same views on same sex “marriage” as Obama.
Yea, Obama is way lame on that issue. He is also lame if he doesn’t do something about the crazy, out of control War on Pot.
December 19th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
Frank,
God is not an angry being. He’s all-loving, all-forgiving, and merciful. Words like:
“29. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30. slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31. they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.”
These words do not sound like the words of an merciful being. I know plety of homosexuals that are not slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant, boastful. Actually, many of them are nicer people than some of my fellow heterosexual brothers and sisters. Hmmm.
December 19th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
“I think that’s part of maturity; I think that’s part of delayed gratification; I think that’s part of character.”
I think that’s bullcrap. I think that’s a self-righteous bigot preaching to the choir. I think that’s sanctimonious garbage being puked up just to keep Rick Warren in business.
If there’s no one to blame he’s out of a job.
December 19th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
Tra,
“It is a civil thing, not a religious thing.” So why won’t are the majority of those practicing homosexuality not ok with civil unions?
Because just like most heterosexual Americans are religious, so are most homosexual Americans. They are getting married by pastors all the time, in every state. The government doesn’t control the religious aspect of whether they are married or not, they are married, period.
But the government doesn’t give them the bag of civic goodies and responsibilities that go along with it.
(Though of course there should be a non-religious way for homosexuals to marry, just as there is for heterosexuals.)
December 19th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
First let me say that I am pretty much a centrist, and I am no Sean Hannity fan, but Mr. Colmes you are one of the biggest idiots on TV. I have seen you defend the scum of the earth virtually every chance you get. You really are a mess and a disgrace to America.
I will watch tonight to see what crook or dead beat you try to rescue tonight.
December 19th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Look at at this way. All impulse sexual in nature is part of human imperfection and to respond in action to any desire of the flesh under any circumstance is part of character and spiritual maturity.
Guess that makes Rick a dirty rotten impulse follower everytime he makes love to his wife.
Why can’t he just pray and preach when he feels like spending time with wife in the bedroom? What a pervert!
December 19th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Yeah, you are right. Natural impulses. Nothing like a big, sweaty, hairy male ass that makes me want to plunge something stiff into it.
December 19th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Leviticus 18:23 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
Lev. 20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is destestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
Leviticus was given to Moses by God while on Mt. Sinai. Lev. 1:1
1Cor. 6:9-10 9,Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; Neither the sexually immoral not the idloaters not adulterers not male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10,nor thieves not the greedy not drunkards nor slanderers nor wsindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
December 19th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
But doesn’t Leviticus have some really wacky stuff in it, Willy? Didn’t a bunch of it become irrelevant when Christ died?
Why are those still in force, when it is now OK to eat various stuff Leviticus tells us not to?
December 19th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
“They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”
…
That is Christianity for you.
December 19th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Quite possibly UM. I am not a biblical scholar. But if you read 1Cor. 6:9-10 it clearly states that homosexual offenders will not inherit the kingdom of God. That has not changed from the Old Testiment.
December 19th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
Diego,
That is the words of God. God gives us the free will to choose. But with our choices come consequences. Just as a robber chooses to rob a band, he must face the consequences. God does not dictate, but sets down rules, if you may, that if we disobey His word there are consequences. He will forgive us for our disobedience but we must seek His forgiveness.
December 19th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
Willy,
Do you beleive that God has the capability of changing his mind?
December 19th, 2008 at 5:14 pm
Willy,
As I stated above I choose not to belive in the bible. So then why would your arguments based on it mean anything to me at all?
December 19th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Diego,
God has the ability to change anything. God was going to destroy Sodom & Gomorrah along with everyone living there but Abraham pleaded with God. He ask God if He found fifty righteous people there would he destroy the cities. God responded by telling Abraham that if He found fifty righteous people he would spare the cities. Again Abraham pleaded if less than fifty, then forty, thirty, twenty, ten, and each time God said he would spare the cities if He found any righteous there. God does change His mind.
All mankind is born into sin. If man goes to God through Jesus and ask for His forgiveness God will forgive. You then become a child of God and will inherit His kingdom.
December 19th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
Willy,
Does the government have the right to impose these laws on those who don’t believe that the bible is the word of GOD?
You don’t believe that the Gita or the Koran is the word of God but the Hindus and Muslims do.
December 19th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Placefield,
The decision is entirely up to you. God’s word is there for all to read and hear. He does not force Himself onto anyone. We are given free choice. But like I said all choices have consequences.
If you choose not to believe then I will move on and not bother you.
December 19th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Ohhh, Placefield,
You beat me to it.
December 19th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Old Lefty,
I have never read the Gita or Koran. I do believe in the Ten Commandants so I do not believe in worshiping idols such as Buddha.
December 19th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
Do you celebrate Christmas Placefield? If so, why do you celebrate it?
December 19th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
Willy,
Very good. I agree with you that God has the ability to change His mind. I also believe that God can change the Bible if that is His will. The Bible that we know of is over 1500 years old. I believe that many individuals have commited themselves to try and interpret that literature for good, but I also believe that other individuals have taken the Bible and interpreted it for their own interests. I believe that God is good and I believe that God loves and accepts homosexuals because these individuals are not out to harm anyone. I believe that God sympathizes with any individual who has a good conscience and has no intent to harm other individuals. No intent at EVIL. I believe that a homosexual, like a heterosexual, is capable of having a clean, righteous conscience. Would you agree?
December 19th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
Diego,
If it is His will, yes He can change the Bible. I agree with everything you said Diego. Many people use the Bible to justify their own beliefs or interests.
God does accept homosexuals. God loves every man, woman, and child on the face of this world. But God does not like the sinful nature of man. Another words I believe that God does not like the homosexual activity. I believe you can be a non-practicing homosexual and be a christian. I do not believe that a practicing homosexual can inherit the kingdom of God, unless he/she accepts Jesus as their savior which would include giving up the homosexual activities.
But Diego, I agree with everything you just posted.
How’s that? lol
December 19th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
Willy,
The point is that OTHER people believe THEIR books as much as you believe in the bible.
December 19th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
I’ve got to go for a while. Diego, Old Lefty, Placefield, you all have a very pleasant evening. Not sure I’ll be back tonight.
Great talking with you.
December 19th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
Old Lefty,
I agree. I am not trying to change the whole world. I think that in the end most of us believe in one God. It is everything in between that gets in the way.
Good evening Lefty.
Don’t mean to cut you off but I must go for a while.
December 19th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
President Obama, I wanna toss your salad!
December 19th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
Don’t mean to cut you off but I must go for a while.
Posted by Willy
…………………………
Me too everybody.
Good night.
December 19th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
Willy,
I’m glad you agree, but I wasn’t clear enough though. By homosexuals I meant to include practicing homosexuals as well. I believe God is capable of accepting that practice then, if you will, if it is not meant deliberately at offending the Lord. I believe some homosexuals practice their sexuality without any malicious intent, therefore that practice should not be considered sin. I believe sin to be any act that you commit with the intent to impose EVIL. If you commit an act with the absence of malicious intent, then I believe it not to be a sin. For example, if there is a person out there that is a practicing homosexual, has never heard the word of the Lord, and practices his/her sexuality without any malicious intent, then I believe that they are not commiting sin. I know that many people will disagree, and I accept that, but do you understand my logic?
December 19th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
Good night fellas!
December 19th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
Unbelievable! First you have Diego who wonders if God is a God of mercy because of what the Bible says. How can one be more merciful than to explain to you what kinds of behaviors will lead to your destruction? Diego also says that sin is an act that is done with the intent to “impose evil.” God calls sin anything that is done outside of His word. And His word says that having sex outside of His definition of marriage is sin. Does it “impose evil” to have sex with someone outside of marriage. I believe it does. Why? Because it goes against God’s original intent–once again, one man, one woman, one flesh–forever.
You can’t redefine what God says, Diego. That is buying into the lie that brought original sin. Try looking up the phrase “has God indeed said.” Satan said that to Eve in the garden of Eden. You can choose to not believe what God says, like satan told Eve to do. But you can’t change what He says just by redefining His words.
Which brings me to my second point. There are those of you who think of the Bible as just a book. But it is much more than that. It is God’s word. Think about that for a minute. God gave us His word. That might not mean much to people in our time who choose to define truth as whatever feels right to them. But to me it means a lot. You see, He gave me His word that one day, He would make this world that we have so messed up right once again. And He sealed His word in blood–His own blood, which He shed on a cross in Judea some 2,000 years ago. Why doesn’t He just come back now and make it right? Because many of you haven’t come to a saving knowledge of Him. That my friends is mercy.
December 19th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
Old Lefty,
Just because people believe in something doesn’t make it right. People from other religions may believe that what their books say is right, but can they prove it? That is the difference between the Bible and other books. You see, what God says comes true. Did you know that over 300 specific things that were said about the Jewish Messiah were fulfilled in the life of Jesus Christ? 109 of them came true during the last week of His life. Don’t believe what I have to say. Check into it for yourself. Many have tried to refute what God has said in His word. But most of them come away trusting in what He says. God validated his word so that you don’t have to blindly believe it. But you do have to have faith. You have to trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. You have to believe that He died in your place because you could never do enough good to outweigh the bad. The Bible says that God knows the end from the beginning. What will your end be?
December 19th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
Frank,
I grew up being inundated with exactly what you just said. I just can’t buy it any more. If God created absolutely everything and evil exists, then God created evil. I know that is where the “free will” thing comes into play but in my opinion there is a stretch in logic to let all of that make sense. To me it seems like God was bored so he created an imperfect creation knowing that it would result in pain and suffering just for his amusement. Does not sound very merciful to me.
December 19th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
Frank,
It is easy for anybody to fulfill prophecy when their life is writen about well after there death by people who do not have first hand knowledge about their life.
December 19th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
Frank,
That’s what ALL religions say, and the all have examples.
Many pagans made the same claims:
In 200 BC, The Romans had Attis, born of the virgin Nana, (the virgin birth became a popular late addition as at attempt to separate the Dying/Savior God from his original role as the Lover/Son of the Great Goddess) whose birth was celebrated on December 25. He was sacrificed as an adult in order to bring salvation to mankind.
In Ancient Egypt, 3000 BC
Born Dec. 25, born of a virgin, birth was signaled by the east star, adored by 3 kings, had 12 disciples, performed miracles, known as “lamb of god” and “the light”, crucified, was buried 3 days, was resurrected.
My only point is that many different faiths claim ABSOLUTE TRUTH…they are all the same to me.
That doesn’t mean that there is not “something”, but to claim exclusive right and knowledge of it, I think leads to more harm than good,
Good Night, everybody.
December 19th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
Everyone at some point has doubts. View a debate on the issue.
December 19th, 2008 at 11:06 pm
December 19th, 2008 at 11:25 pm
singing music
December 19th, 2008 at 11:27 pm
Some caroling might put you in the holiday spirit.
December 19th, 2008 at 11:31 pm
There are plenty of ministers in the United States that have no problem with Gay Marriage or any other diversity in humans. The President elect has chosen to pick a divisive person who is an ideologue to give the invocation at his inaugural. A person chooses their faith or spirituality, they do not choose their sexual orientation or gender identity.
December 19th, 2008 at 11:37 pm
Placefield,
Absolutely not! God created perfection. Man chose evil. God gave man everything, including a choice. Man chose to serve himself and not God. It was a perfect act of love because had He not allowed for choice, there would be no true fellowship with man.
As far as your argument goes for the Bible being written after the fact, that is not true. The Dead Sea Scrolls proved that. Don’t believe what you have heard. Check into it for yourself.
As for the pagan religions saying the same thing. Of course they would. Read Genesis 3:15. In that verse God predicts not just the virgin birth of His Son, but also enmity between the woman’s seed and the seed of the serpent. Satan knew from the very beginning that God was going to bring His Messiah into the world to redeem it. And he has used that knowledge to pervert the truth. By the way, Jesus was probably not born in the winter. December 25th was adopted much later, and truly is a pagan holiday.
Somone wrote that many ministers accept gay marriage, and that is true. But the point is, what does God say? If I had it my way, I would be like most people and simply say whatever floats your boat. But as a child of God, I know the truth. And Jesus said that the truth will set you free. So I can’t accept the lie. I believe that not saying something is a large part of the problem. Accepting sin because it is more politically correct is no different than believing a lie. I have gay friends and gay people that I work with. Anf=d they are just sinners like me and in desperate need of a Savior. I pray that God would take away the things that are blinding them from the truth so that they can one day come into the kingdom of the Son of His love. I pray that all of you will do that as well. Remember, Jesus loves you, enough that He came a nd died in your place.
December 20th, 2008 at 12:32 am
If God created perfection and God created man, is man perfect?
December 20th, 2008 at 12:43 am
If this utter garbage is true then surely your little God created evil too?
December 20th, 2008 at 12:54 am
God created man, perfectly–but with a choice. Man made that choice and he still makes that choice. When someone chooses to rob a bank, do you blame God? No. God said “Thou shalt not steal.” Man chooses to steal. Man creates his own evil by bad choices. Accept responsibility for your actions. By the way, you still have a choice to make. That choice is–who is Jesus Christ. Make the right choice.
December 20th, 2008 at 8:59 am
God created man, perfectly–but with a choice
It is a shame that so many choose to discriminate against gays though, don’t you agree?
December 20th, 2008 at 9:02 am
Jake,
The Bible says that the fool has said in their heart there is no God. Think about that for a moment when you mock Him. Also think about what you are doing. This God came down to earth, God in the flesh, absorbed the punishment for every sin you ever committed, allowed you to hang Him on a cross tp pay the price for those sins, and then said from that cross, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.” And you say that He created evil!
December 20th, 2008 at 9:02 am
allowed you to hang Him on a cross tp pay the price for those sins,
I am against the death penalty. I would not have been in favor of hanging him, or anyone else on the cross. What is your position on the death penalty?
December 20th, 2008 at 9:04 am
Absolutely! Descrimination is sin. I don’t know for sure what to do with the problem of equality in dealing with gay “couples.” My heart bleeds for them. But what I do know is that it would be destructive to our society to allow them to claim the same rights as a man and woman who have become one in the sight of God. I believe that if they would give God’s way a chance, they would never turn back. There is nothing better in life than being with your wife, the very help meet that God gave you, and becoming one. Think about the implications of this. When you become one, God may choose to breath life into a child, a grace gift for you. Not only that, but He will be there to help you raise that child. There is no way better than God’s way.
Unfortunately, there is no way for the homosexual couple to experience that. They can have children, by adopting them or using man made solutions. But they can never become one flesh. God just did not design things that way. And no matter how badly you want that to change, it doesn’t seem like it will. Why accept second best? Why not just follow along the pattern that the Creator of the universe designed and get blessed for it?
December 20th, 2008 at 9:15 am
But the problem is, you did. Inadvertantly of couse. The Bible says that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” We are all guilt of nailing Him to the cross. But God…those are my two favorite words from the Bible…But God knew. He knew we could never do enough. So He sent His Son to reconcile man back to Him. That is the beauty of God’s plan. We don’t have to reach up to appease God. He is reaching down to save us. Every other religion says you have to do this to get to God. Jesus says, “tetelestai,” it is finished. All the work has been done. Jesus did it once and for all. Believe and receive. Call on His name and you will be saved.
As for my take on the death penalty. To quote our new leader, “that is above my pay grade.” I could never pull the trigger. But if the government of the land says that death is the result of a particular crime, then so be it.
December 20th, 2008 at 9:22 am
But what I do know is that it would be destructive to our society to allow them to claim the same rights as a man and woman who have become one in the sight of God.
It would be easier for me to believe that if the same folks who rail against gay marriage, also railed against those folks who marry in a civil ceremony, outside of the church.
Unfortunately, there is no way for the homosexual couple to experience that. They can have children, by adopting them or using man made solutions.
Again, why not rail against the marriage of the infertile, folks who require fertility treatments to conceive, and/or those who choose not to have children.
Why not just follow along the pattern that the Creator of the universe designed and get blessed for it?
All I know is that as a hetero man there is no possible way I could become attracted to another man, and thus I fully believe that a homo man would have similar problems becoming attracted to a woman. And celibacy sucks.
December 20th, 2008 at 9:23 am
PS. upon reflection I should not have used the term ‘railed against’ when specifically referring to you. I should say ‘be against’. Please excuse the inflammatory word ‘rail’.
December 20th, 2008 at 9:26 am
For those who think that the bible has nothing to do with God, using the New Testament prove the old, or visa versa, doesn’t work.
You can not prove that the New testament was not written in order to conform to the old.
That’s where faith comes in.
The problem I have is that the some of most dangerous people in the world ALL believe that THEIR book is the only true book, and that they also can prove it.
December 20th, 2008 at 9:43 am
I am against any relationship that is outside the will of God. I don’t think a homosexulal relationship is more sinful than a hetero relationship outside of marriage. And I don’t think those who are ,”playing married” should have the same rights as a married couple. Where is the commitment?
Do you know the story of Abram and Sarai from the Bible? They wanted children but Sarai was barren. But God…nothing is too hard for Him. At 100 years old, He gave Abram a child by Sarai. My wife and I have been married for 11 years. We got married in our 40’s. She had her tubes tied due to a bad relationship earlier in life (bad choice, but forgiven). God did not choose to give us a miracle child like He did for Abraham and Sarah. But He did do a miracle. You see, at about the same time we committed our lives together before Him, God breathed life into my son. It was all the way accross the country, and in some preety bad circumstances. But some 5 years later, He led me to where my son was. And God placed him in my life.
Your last comment is a difficult one. But I think I can answer it. That is what Rick Warren was talking about. There are some that have the inclination to have sex with a same sex partner. I don’t understand that, but it is true. The issue is, like Pastor Rick says, what are you going to do with that inclination? But there is a place where I depart from what he (Rick Warren) said. I don’t believe that this inclination is natural. The bible says that it is an unnatural affection, (Romans 1:26-27). It is a lust of the flesh. They simply need to turn to God and He will help them overcome that lust.
December 20th, 2008 at 9:50 am
But God DID prove it. The others are counterfeit. that is why I am not afraid of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is the truth. It is the power of God unto salvation.
December 20th, 2008 at 9:51 am
Frank,
ALL religions believe that.
My own believe is that nobody knows the will of God anymore than anybody else does, and you can not impose the bible on those who don’t believe in it….
That is no different than sharia law.
December 20th, 2008 at 10:00 am
No. You’re wrong. Look at the other religious books and they don’t claim to know the end from the beginning. The Bible does. The others may give you keys to living life. But they don’t provide any power with which to do those things. The Bible does. It is called the grace of God.
December 20th, 2008 at 10:17 am
I know the will of God. The will of God is that you be transformed into the image of His Son (Romans 12:2). That only begins to happen when you give your life to that Son. And I am not trying to impose the law on you. The Bible says that the law has no power to keep you from sinning. It is just a way of showing you what sin is. Again, it is the grace of God that we need. Yesterday we talked about mercy. Mercy is not getting what you deserve. Grace is the opposite. Grace Grace is getting what you don’t deserve—a free gift. This free gift was offered to all when Jesus died on the cross. So I am no longer under that law that you say I am trying to “impose” upon you. I am under a much more stringent code–it is called the perfect law of liberty.
Let me explain this law. I don’t drink alcohol. Maybe you do. You have the liberty to drink. I have the liberty not to drink. I can choose not to, just as you choose to drink. Do you understand. I can choose not to sin (not that drinking is a sin, only getting drunk and stupid is). And when I choose not to sin, God honors that chloice by giving me the grace to overcome. 1 John 1:9 is called the Christian bar of soap. It says that if I confess my sin (tuen from it), God will forgive me of that sin and cleanse me from unrighteousness. In other words, if I teurn from it, He will give me tha abilty to not ever do it again.
December 20th, 2008 at 10:28 am
Frank,
I’m sorry, this is all fine, but it’s YOUR opinion.
Others are as certain as you are.
Using one book as proof doesn’t work for those who don’t believe in that book.
There is nothing more to say….I ‘m glad your faith works for you, while the faith of others works for them, I just happen to believe that God did not inspire one set of scriptures over another.
It’s like saying,
“I don’t believe astronomy because my numberologist said it’s bunk”
December 20th, 2008 at 10:44 am
Frank,
am against any relationship that is outside the will of God. I don’t think a homosexulal relationship is more sinful than a hetero relationship outside of marriage. And I don’t think those who are ,”playing married” should have the same rights as a married couple. Where is the commitment?
Though I don’t know what you mean by ‘playing married’ it sounds like you are far more consistent in your beliefs than many.
I still do not think the fact that you (and many others) have a specific interpretation of the bible that says homosexuals should not marry is enough of a reason to continue to withhold from homosexual married couples the civic rights and responsibilities heterosexual married couples enjoy, however.
December 20th, 2008 at 10:51 am
I find it interesting that Pastor Warren speaks of being able to reign in their natural impulses, that it is a matter of character. He expects homosexuals to reign in their impulses in regards to sex, and he can’t even reign in his impulses in regards to food.
December 20th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Rick Warren also believes that the heterosexual should reign in their impulses regarding premarital sex.
I’m just sayin’.
December 20th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Is anybody saying that we should reign our impulses regarding usury?
December 20th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Frank,
I am not in the least surprised that the only argument you can use to support your nasty bigotry is to abuse me personally by calling me a fool. Frank, you have no idea how much contempt I have for you and your co-religionists. Christianity is the epitome of evil. There was no son of god, because there is no god. There were dozens of Jesus Christs – all of them performing miracles, claiming to speak for god and rising from the dead. If Christianity was so profoundly true – then all you bigotted pigs need to do is sit back and watch it play out – your itty-bitty baby Jesus will take care of everything. But that is not the case is it? That is why you and a few others here feel the need to ram your hate down our throats and to quote bizarre passages from a book which has been translated so much that it is meaningless fable – if it ever had any meaning when it was first written by MEN. Christianity is a cult – like Scientology, like Islam, like the Hare Krishnas – get help, but if you decide not to – stay away from our children – we know how much you like them.
December 20th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Jake,
Look at your words compared to mine. Then think about the word bigotry. But also think about this. If you are right, I am no worse off. When I die, I lose nothing. If I am right what do you lose when you die? I was simply trying to point out that you were mocking God–not me by the way. If you want to argue, argue with Him. Do you have any fact to back up the things you said. I see a bunch of generalities, bust no substance.
December 20th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
Frank seems so sure that when he dies he’s going to heaven. Interesting. The Jews think THEY’RE going to heaven. The Muslims think THEY’RE going to heaven.
Who’s Right? And to point the bible out to me, because I have someone else pointing out the Talmud and another pointing out the Koran.
December 20th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
Hey, I got a great quote from your loose and disjointed collection of ancient texts and plagerized myths you Christians call the biblical canon!
It’s Luke 4:23.
And it’s message, “Physician, heal thyself” is possibly the most ignored passage in the whole book*
So-called “hetereosexual marriage” is rife with divorce (2 in 3), infidelity (Falwell, Swaggert ETC ETC!) and serial monogomy (spouse after spouse after spouse…usually a “younger” model)…
And church-goers share the same statistics, although their IS slightly less divorce in the muslim world, interesting.
….and so I propose that the hypocrites that oppose gay marriage so vehemently and with such vitriol and un-christian anger…I propose they turn their energies inward to their own communities and “heal themselves” first…
* The other most ignored advice is, of course, love thy neighbour. Unless, of course, he goes to your church!
lol
December 20th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
Hey, I got a great quote from your loose and disjointed collection of ancient texts and plagerized myths you Christians call the biblical canon!
It’s Luke 4:23.
And it’s message, “Physician, heal thyself” is possibly the most ignored passage in the whole book*
So-called “hetereosexual marriage” is rife with divorce (2 in 3), infidelity (Falwell, Swaggert ETC ETC!) and serial monogomy (spouse after spouse after spouse…usually a “younger” model)…
And church-goers share the same statistics, although their IS slightly less divorce in the muslim world, interesting.
….and so I propose that the hypocrites that oppose gay marriage so vehemently and with such vitriol and un-christian anger…I propose they turn their energies inward to their own communities and “heal themselves” first…
* The other most ignored advice is, of course, love thy neighbour. Unless, of course, he goes to your church!
lol
December 20th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
Bad,
What does that have to do with homosexual marriage being given the same status as heterosexual marriage? Are you saying that gay couples stay together longer than hetero couples? You know that is not true. So what is your point?
And, by the way, read your words, then read mine. Who is exhibiting vitro and anger?
December 20th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
TDRO,
You are right. I do believe that I am going to heaven. But aska Muslim what he believes. Do you know what he’ll say? He doesn’t know. Why? Becuase Allah is pernicious. He can’t be trusted. The only way they can truly know that they will go to paradise is to become a martyr for Allah. That is why they do it.
The Jew, he relies on a system of works. He will get to heaven if his good works outweigh the bad. But this is an interesting thing because the Jew cannot offer sacrifice in the temple. Why? There is no temple. Stay tuned. There will be some day soon.
But i know. Why? Because Savior says so. He paid a price I could not pay. And because of Him, I can rest assured that my place in heaven is secure.
If you want to argue comparative religions, you at least need to have an understanding of what they believe.
December 20th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
You know, “Allah” is the same God you believe in ?
The Muslims believe that God sent the angel Gabrial to Muhammad and gave him the last word.
They also believe in Jesus and Moses
December 20th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
Not so. Allah and the God of the Bible are not the same. He was one of the gods that were worshipped by Muhammed’s tribe. Ask a Muslim if their God is the same. See what they say.
December 20th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
I think you are wrong, Frank, every Muslim I know, and everything I have read, say that Islam is the third Abrahamic religion.
I’ve never met a Muslim who agrees with you.
I don’t care because I don’t have a dog in the race. As I’ve said, to me it’s “Our voodoo good, Their voodoo, bad”
December 20th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
Lefty,
This is a quote from a Muslim website:
The concepts that God rested on the seventh day of creation, that God wrestled with one of His soldiers, that God is an envious plotter against mankind, and that God is incarnate in any human being are considered blasphemy from the Islamic point of view.
I beg to differ on the point that the Bible teaches God is an “envious plotter against mankind.” But you get my drift. If you,look deep enough into what Muhammed did, you will find that he built a monotheistic religiion around the moon god that his tribe worshipped. The pagan rituals that the muslims do on their pilgrimages to Mecca, such as kissing the black stone; killing an animal in sacrifice to the Moon-god; throwing stones at the devil; fasting for the month which begins and ends with the crescent moon; giving alms to the poor, were all done pre-Islam.
If your friends are saying that their god is the same it is only being said to evanglize you.
December 20th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
Muslims do not believe Jesus was God in the flesh as Christians do. They think he was a good prophet.
There are a LOT of differences between islam and christianity. I am tired of people trying to equate the two.
December 20th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
Frank, turning in now, but, really, my in laws are from India. We both work or have worked in hospitals, and have known Muslims from India, Pakistan and the Middle East. My father in law, (a Hindu), worked for a cosmetic company owned by Muslims called Afgan Snow.
I can assure that NOBODY is evangelizing, or could care less.
I submit that your sources are flawed, and that you don’t know what you are talking about.
But again all of you who think you are right and everyone else is wrong are equally sanctimonious and presumptuous to me.
December 20th, 2008 at 10:29 pm
Old,
If you think muslims are evangelizing I disagree with you completely. That is the fastest growing religion in the world the last time I paid attention. You don’t becpome the fastest growing religion without spreading the word, or yielding the sword.
December 20th, 2008 at 10:33 pm
Lefty,
I don’t think that I am right and everyone else is wrong. I didn’t say, “I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me.” Jesus did. I just believe what Jesus said.
December 20th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
i dont get this whole “disagree with homosexuality” thing. its not something that can or cannot be agreed upon. it is the way some people are, we cannot help it. i am gay and i promise you i would not choose to live like this only because of the intolerance and hatred of so many in this country. but im not going to deny who i am and marry a woman and be unhappy my whole life.
December 21st, 2008 at 3:39 am
Frank,
Not everybody believes in the bible anymore than you believe in the koran.
Once again, it is numerology versus palm reading tio many.
December 21st, 2008 at 7:06 am
T Mason,
In my experience, I have NEVER experienced evangelizing by the Muslims or Christians that I have in the short or the long term.
Not here or abroad.
Not since the mid 70s when I first became exposed to people from different countries.
You might look to who is converting though, it’s usually, as in all religions, the poor, and those who feel they get a raw deal from their current culture.
December 21st, 2008 at 7:15 am
So there are no rich muslims or christians. ROFL. Some of the richest men in the world are muslim.
December 21st, 2008 at 2:22 pm
It has nothing to do with rich Muslims or Christians.
Actually, the Pakistanis and Africans complain that they are treated the worst when they go to the haj, compared to wealthy Arab and white pilgrims.
It doesn’t matter. All that matters is perception.
It’s not the rich who convert.
Who converts to Islam the most in the US, and why? (it has nothing to do with the sword.)
December 21st, 2008 at 2:45 pm
Perception is NOT the only thing that matters when dealing with relgions/religous ideology. The heart of the matter is, well, what is in the heart….and whether or not you take things literally or not.
I don’t see Christians stoning women anymore because they commit adultry. I do still see muslim fathers murdering their daughters because they have sex before marriage or women who are amorous.
perception isn’t the be all and end all.
December 21st, 2008 at 5:00 pm
The discussion about perception was about why people convert, not how we feel about Islam.
As for:
“I don’t see Christians stoning women anymore because they commit adultry.”
Because we live in a secular society, and they can’t get that much power.
“In June of 2008 Sarah Palin praised Kenyan pastor Thomas Muthee before an Assembly of God congregation, recounting his powerful prayer over her as she was running for governor of Alaska.
But today, the Times of London did a fascinating profile of Muthee, and found that his ministry began with a witch hunt, in which he accused a woman named Mama Jane of casting spells and causing car wrecks.
Pastor Muthee’s demonizing of Mama Jane ultimately drove her from her home community in Kenya.”
From the BBC:
‘Witches’ burnt to death in Kenya
December 21st, 2008 at 5:31 pm
Since we are a secular nation, all of your posts and the posts of others here which claim that christian wing nuts are taking over the country and cramming their beliefs down the throats of good little atheists everywhere is crap.
Once again, you can’t have it both ways.
December 21st, 2008 at 6:20 pm
Yep,
We just have to be vigilant, so nobody gets too much power.
You don’t do that by keeping your mouth shout, waiting till it’s too late…..(that applies to ALL sides, even mine).
December 21st, 2008 at 6:30 pm
Well, Christians aren’t going to keep their mouths shut either. I would gladly give my life to maintain my right to worship freely and openly…anywhere I choose.
Maybe all the liberals who want to shove religion down should move to a communist country where you have to hide in your basement?
December 21st, 2008 at 6:42 pm
I view myself as a Christian. I don,t think i should imposed my Christian beleif upon others for being different. The right does not have ownership on GOD. Nor , would i support a nat,lized church back by gov,t.
December 21st, 2008 at 6:51 pm
You know, T. Mason,
I never told you to keep your mouth shut.
I actually, said BOTH sides need to be vigilant.
I don’t want to hinder religious people from practicing their religion, any more than I want them to impose their beliefs on me.
And I won’t tell my fellow Americans to leave their country, even though some people act as though they would be more comfortable in Saudi Arabia, but it’s still my country as much as it’s your’s.
December 21st, 2008 at 7:11 pm
T Mason: “I don’t see Christians stoning women anymore because they commit adultry.”
But by god, they do enjoy stoning a gay or two!
You can almost hear the Christian leaders squaring it, a group of men drinking wine around a table: “Well, maybe we should lay off the women, but what say we keep up with the persecution of homos? Yes? All in favor? Good. Motion carries. Now, moving on to getting drunk and sleeping with our daughters. Lot, will you please make the presentation?”
December 22nd, 2008 at 1:43 pm
It seems that everyone on this post is ignoring the central issue about gay “marriage” that Rick Warren and others spoke to during the Prop 8 campaign.
The marriage between a man and woman is the hub of the societal wheel. Every spoke of a healthy society is connected to that hub. Children born and raised into a healthy heterosexual marriage become the spokes on which the society turns. Look at children born into broken, dysfunctional, unhealthy homes. Look at their rates of teen births, drug use, school dropout, suicide, divorce and every other unhealthy indicator. We all have an obligation to protect society from these dysfunctions.
Homosexual marriage by nature is not a natural home because it can not naturally produce children to be raised by both of their biological parents. Children brought into a homosexual home are brought into a home that is by nature dysfunctional. Are there some kids who will be raised in homosexual homes that are just as “healthy” as those raised in a heterosexual home? Sure there are. But the dysfunction will be the norm just as it is with any non-traditional family structure. We have an obligation to structure our society so that healthy functional families and children are the norm, not the exception.
Rick Warren is not hateful to homosexuals, he is against homosexuality. (Love the sinner, hate the sin.) Christians believe in freedom of conscience and everything I have heard Warren say acknowledges this freedom. He does not want to criminalize homosexuals. He does not want to legislate what we do in the privacy of our bedrooms. He, like all of us should, wants to protect our society even if it means we have to sacrifice something that individually I would rather not sacrifice.
Legal unions are available to those who live in states that allow them. For others, they can protect legal privileges through something as simple as a power of attorney. But, you don’t have the right to change the fabric of the society we live in and depend upon for selfish reasons.
And please don’t bring up heterosexual divorce. It is a blight upon society and the failure of heterosexual marriage is not an excuse for a homosexual one that is just as, if not more, likely to fail.
December 22nd, 2008 at 2:19 pm
Byron,
I do believe that what you are saying is correct. It does go against the fabric of society to legitimize any form of dysfunctional marraige. Dysfunction destroys people. That is why God hates sin. He hates sin because He knows what it does to people. And He hated it enough to provide a way out for sinners. Jesus not only died that we might have everlasting life. He also died that we might have power over the sin in our lives. And that is where I part with what you said about the “privacy” of the bedroom. When the woman at the well cmae before Jesus, He pointed out her sin. She had had multiple husbands and was living with a man. His response was not, “hey, it’s ok as long as you do it in the privacy of your own home.” He drew her into a spirit of repentance.
He did the same thing with the woman who was caught in adultery. He did not judge her. He brought her to repentance, then told her to go and sin no more. Maqybe that is what we need to be more like. We should not judge people’s behavior (God is the judge). But we should point out sin when we see it. We should be like Jesus and weep over our country as we see how far it has fallen. We should not sit back and watch it fall further. There is and Old Testament concept that comes into play here. In many places, the prophets spoke of the “watchman on the wall.” The watchman was responsible for looking out to see when the enemy was coming. This was an important job becuase the watchman was charged with blowing the torn so that people would be prepared for battle. It was so important, that it was said that if the watcman failed, the blood of the people was on his hands. I’m not sure I want to sit back and have blood on my hands on that day when I come face-to-face with my Savior. How about you?
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:50 am
For all of you who believe that we who are born with sexual or gender differences should be satisfied with the limitations of civil unions, or domestic partnerships; please look up the supreme court’s findings in Brown v board of education.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=347&invol=483
That decision and many follow up opinions have ruled that separate but equal is unconstitutional. This is not related to only racial segregation, but all forms of inequality.
December 25th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
Seahag,
I don’t disagree with Brown v Board of Education. But I must defer to a higher court when it comes to marriage. Listen to what God says:
And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.
23 And Adam said:
“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”
24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
The New King James Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1998, c1982.
This is the way that God chose to fill the earth with people. One man, one woman, one flesh. In God’s economy this is what marriage is. And no matter how hard you try, you can never be one flesh with your partner in the same way. So why do you want the same status?
December 29th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
and, by the way, a majority of my fellow Americans agree. So regardless of what soome radical judge says, the people have spoken.
December 29th, 2008 at 5:45 pm