Israel Vs. Hamas: Who Has The Moral High Ground?
Gaza militants say they will conduct suicide bombings and ”strike at Zionist targets everywhere.”
“We will not rest until we destroy the Zionist entity,” said Hamas leader Fathi Hammad at the funeral of Nizar Rayyan, the cleric who was killed along with his family.
[...]
Hamas spokesman Ismail Rudwan said that “following this crime, all options are now open including martyrdom operations to deter the aggression and to strike Zionist interests everywhere … killing begets killing and destruction begets destruction.”
Nine mosques have been hit since last Saturday. And the London Times is reporting that Israel is about to launch a ground war. Yet, Charles Krauthammer says there is moral clarity here, and Israel is acting with the utmost integrity by trying to avoid civilian casualties.
Israel is so scrupulous about civilian life that, risking the element of surprise, it contacts enemy noncombatants in advance to warn them of approaching danger. Hamas, which started this conflict with unrelenting rocket and mortar attacks on unarmed Israelis — 6,464 launched from Gaza in the past three years — deliberately places its weapons in and near the homes of its own people.
Yet, if you read Juan Cole you get quite the opposite view.
Israel hasn’t paid a dime to any of the Palestinian families it expelled in 1948…which is itself a violation of international law.
Meanwhile rocket attacks are being Twittered, and Flickr is home to amateur photographers chronicling the war. And Israel is using YouTube to bring public opinion in line with its actions with a dedicated channel.
You really think paying anything to Arabs from Israel would make any difference? You are just fooling yourself if you really believe that. The Arab world has been trying to wipe the Israelis off the face of the map since the beginning.
Over 6400 rocket attacts by Hamas over the past three years?!! You talk about a patient nation. What is Israel supposed to do? And where were you Alan during those 6400+ rocket attacks? I have never heard you condemn Hamas once.
January 2nd, 2009 at 5:13 pm
Don’t bug Alan with details, WILLY, he’s too busy being infuriated with Bush (remember that Bush is responsible for everything). The details would probably make him stroke out.
But you’re right, there has been little condemnation of the behavior of Hamas. I think that they are getting what they deserve.
January 2nd, 2009 at 6:05 pm
If you want to time-travel back to 1948 or even 1967 then you might be able to have a sensible discussion of whom has the moral high-ground (although that was many years before Hamas even existed). However, both sides have committed so many atrocities, that they long ago removed any debate of whom is right and wrong, but now its a case of ‘Whom is more evil? Israel or Hamas?’
January 2nd, 2009 at 6:27 pm
What’s the matter with Israel? They should just sit back and let everyone attack them without doing anything…right?
January 2nd, 2009 at 6:33 pm
Mark, take a look at the history of Northern Ireland sometime. The British government never bombed larged segments of the catholic community everytime the IRA committed an atrocity.. But its ok for Israel to respond like that for some reason..
I guess though its completely different right?
January 2nd, 2009 at 6:39 pm
Lee,
Please describe how the IDF is bombing LARGE segments or communities in Gaza. The IDF is broadcasting where/when the bombs will fall. Their targets are Hamas weapons caches and Hamas leadership. It is Hamas’ fault they intentionally placed their weapons in the middle of highly populated areas.
January 2nd, 2009 at 7:47 pm
“Who Has The Moral High Ground?”
No one.
There is no moral high ground in war.
January 2nd, 2009 at 8:00 pm
Jared, firstly, I call 37 dead children and hundreds of dead adults, not to mention the injured, fairly large casualties. You are right though, they haven’t carpetbombed yet or brought out their nukes..
Also, this argument that ‘Hamas deliberately put their targets near civilians, therefore its not Israel’s fault’ is really poor. Essentially you are stating that its not Israel’s fault if it knowingly kills children and other innocent people because they were put in their way by Hamas. Heck, even if you think the children ‘volunteered’ to be targets, it doesn’t make killing them ok.
Again, I’m not stating Hamas is in the right here, I’m just suggesting folks like you and other posters blindly cheering on Israel, need to put down your pom-poms for a minute and consider what and whom you are cheering for.
January 2nd, 2009 at 8:15 pm
Israel is very quickly wearing out the patience and losing the support of the world, just the way the US did under Dubya.
It’s there diproportionately heavy response, innit?
A group of ragtag terrorists fire rockets ineffectively into mostly barren areas, 20 or so people die…
…and here comes the might of Israel’s national armed forces with airstikes from F-16’s and heavy bombs.
And kill hundreds of innocent people, thereby boosting support for the terrorists…
and so on…
What IS scary is to see how quick the war pigs rise up to the bait and support the airstikes.
Where is the voice of bl**dy reason here? Where is some diplomatic intervention? Where is the leadership for Pete’s sake?!
Yeeehawwwww!
(Good job, Brownie)
January 2nd, 2009 at 8:28 pm
“”There is no moral high ground in war.”"
No Rocky, there is not.
And probably no end to it either. It makes some people feel to d*mned good…
January 2nd, 2009 at 8:30 pm
WILLY,I agree with you,but some sort policy has to be inplaced. F-ing the UN is not the answer. Freaking Iran ! Ford,Nixon,Carter,Clinton,Reagan,Bush and JR seem to over look and did very little reguarding Iran. We went after everyone else 24/7 and somewhat less,but Iran has ran amok for years.
January 2nd, 2009 at 11:38 pm
And who the heck elected the United States, General Manager of the World? Must of been before my time!
January 3rd, 2009 at 12:59 am
Hullabaloo
Friday, January 02, 2009
Totally Different
by digby
Jonathan Schwarz takes a trip down Israel’s Memory Lane and finds something interesting:
The funny thing about the Israeli attack on Gaza following its long blockade is that Israel’s original justification for taking over Gaza in 1967 was that Israel was being subject to a blockade. This is from the official Knesset history of the Six Day War:
Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser blockaded the Straits of Tiran on May 21st and 22nd to all shipping from and to Eilat; the area was open to Israeli ships under UN supervision since 1957, and Israel repeatedly stated that such a blockade will be considered as casus belli (justification for acts of war).
Ooops.
Jonathan also does a search and finds that nobody in journalism seems to drawn attention to this obvious parallel in all the talk about blockade and retaliation.
How odd.
.
digby 1/02/2009 07:30:00 PM Comments (12) | Trackback (0)
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:23 am
FREE COLLEGE EDUCATIONS @ INTERNETSURFSHACK.COM
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:10 am
Nope. Israel is in the right, and Hamas is in the wrong.
Read the Geneva Convention IV. It is quite clear. Hamas is committing war crimes by firing rockets with the intent to kill innocent civilians. Each rocket or mortar round fired is an act of attempted murder. 6000+ counts so far. The fact that they are inept murderers is irrelevant.
The use of human shields by Hamas is also a war crime. As such, the death of each civilian accidentally killed by the Israelis, is another murder, and their blood is on the hands of Hamas.
I don’t often agree with W, but in this case, he is right. Hey, even a stopped clock tells the correct time twice a day.
January 3rd, 2009 at 8:05 am
Oh, and by the way, as for:
“Israel hasn’t paid a dime to any of the Palestinian families it expelled in 1948…which is itself a violation of international law.”
Pffft. No more so than the Arab States not having “paid a dime to any of the” hundreds of thousands of Jews driven from their homes across the Middle East after the establishment of the State of Israel.
Perhaps if the Arab States treated Palestinian refugees, many of whom were encouraged to leave their homes by those same Arab States, with the promise of returning after they had driven those pesky Jews into the Mediterranean?
Oh, and by the way, that document often waved around, UN resolution 242? It demands all the belligerents to sit down and negotiate peace and the establishment of secure, mutually recognized borders. So far, only Israel, Egypt and Jordan have done so, with the PA under Abbas attempting to. As such, it is Hamas that is in “violation,” once again, “of international law.”
Pffft.
January 3rd, 2009 at 8:20 am
From Haaretz:
Trying to ‘teach Hamas a lesson’ is fundamentally wrong
By Tom Segev
Israel is striking at the Palestinians to “teach them a lesson.” That is a basic assumption that has accompanied the Zionist enterprise since its inception: We are the representatives of progress and enlightenment, sophisticated rationality and morality, while the Arabs are a primitive, violent rabble, ignorant children who must be educated and taught wisdom – via, of course, the carrot-and-stick method, just as the drover does with his donkey.
The bombing of Gaza is also supposed to “liquidate the Hamas regime,” in line with another assumption that has accompanied the Zionist movement since its inception: that it is possible to impose a “moderate” leadership on the Palestinians, one that will abandon their national aspirations.
As a corollary, Israel has also always believed that causing suffering to Palestinian civilians would make them rebel against their national leaders. This assumption has proven wrong over and over.
January 3rd, 2009 at 10:37 am
“”Israel has also always believed that causing suffering to Palestinian civilians would make them rebel against their national leaders. This assumption has proven wrong over and over.”"
Indeed it has, OL, just like the terrorist attacks on the US drew most Americans into a warm fuzzy collective rage. Even Dubya spiked to a (very) short-lived 90% approval rating.
This is the problem with war, isn’t it? It is a ‘bonding’ force that is a heavy narcotic indeed.
The point of the terrorist attacks on the US were a misguided and violent (by our standards anyway) attempt to draw attention to bullying foreign policy (past present and future)…failures to live up to foreign aid committments, assasinations by the CIA, reaping of natural resources from the third world, etc etc/…
…Instead we got freedom fries and patriotic shopping at the Wal-mart…
January 3rd, 2009 at 1:07 pm
“”As such, the death of each civilian accidentally killed by the Israelis, is another murder, and their blood is on the hands of Hamas.”"
I just spit coffee out my nose
:-0
January 3rd, 2009 at 1:11 pm
If I was the leader of Isreal, I would tell the Palestinians to stop attacking or be whiped off the face of the earth. If the attackers of Isreal want death,I think they should be given what they want.
January 3rd, 2009 at 1:44 pm
Alan, you’ve got to be kidding me. Just about anybody has the moral high ground over Hamas. That doesn’t mean that Israel is perfect either, but your premise is ridiculous.
January 3rd, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Santa Claus Jeff and Michael,
You sound EXACTLY like the Hamas you hate so much…
I repeat a quote from yesterday:
“The world is made up for the most part of morons and natural tyrants, sure of themselves, strong in their own opinions, never doubting anything.”
Clarence Darrow
January 3rd, 2009 at 1:53 pm
“Leader of Israel”:
Who are you giving the power to make that decision for all Palestinians?
January 3rd, 2009 at 1:55 pm
There are no civilians. The Palestinians elected thier leaders and now they have to face the consequences for doing so. These people don’t want peace, they never have. If they want to die then I say give it to them and stop the terror to the peacefull people of Isreal.
January 3rd, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Santa Claus Jeff,
Hamas uses the SAME logic as you. How are YOU better?
You seem want the Israelis to keep sticking their finger ii a socket and expect not to get shocked.
AGAIN, from an Israeli newspaper:
”Israel has also always believed that causing suffering to Palestinian civilians would make them rebel against their national leaders. This assumption has proven wrong over and over.”
January 3rd, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Israel has also always believed that causing suffering to Palestinian civilians would make them rebel against their national leaders. This assumption has proven wrong over and over.”
Then I say they haven’t suffered enough to leave the Israelis alone then.
January 3rd, 2009 at 2:38 pm
“Then I say they haven’t suffered enough to leave the Israelis alone then.”
Posted by Santa Claus Jeff
……………………………..
That’s what the radicals on BOTH sides say, so the misery goes on and on and on unabated.
January 3rd, 2009 at 2:47 pm
We want democracy in the middle east… as long as they elect the guys we want.
Sincerely,
Santa Claus Jeff & W
January 3rd, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Yes but one side is hell bent on destruction and one side is trying to live in peace. There is a differance. If the Arabs would leave Israel alone then they wouldn’t be attacked.
January 3rd, 2009 at 2:59 pm
That’s what the Palistinians say.
I bet if you were a Palistinian you join Hamas, you share their thinking.
The far right wing wackos on BOTH sides are the ones who think everything is so one sided.
January 3rd, 2009 at 3:04 pm
Why do the LEFT WING KOOKS seem to support terroist groups hell bent on killing innocent men women and children and condem peacefull people who are tired of putting up with idiots who call for thier distruction?
January 3rd, 2009 at 3:16 pm
Who are the LEFT WING KOOKS that support terrorist groups?
Tell me who they are and I’ll support you getting ‘em “whiped off the face of the earth”.
January 3rd, 2009 at 3:21 pm
old lefty for one
January 3rd, 2009 at 3:24 pm
You don’t have to be a radical to want to fight in a war to protect the home you share with your family when you are having missiles hurled at you constantly.
Radicals don’t always want to fight. Some radicals are dumb enough to sit and be punched in the face over and over and over again, while doing nothing about it.
January 3rd, 2009 at 3:27 pm
Old Lefty:
Please stop supporting terrorist groups killing men, women, and children.
Sincerely,
Mark
P.S. Also stop condemning peace.
January 3rd, 2009 at 3:28 pm
I don’t know, why do the RIGHT WING KOOKS seem to support RIGHT WING groups hell bent on bombing innocent men women and children and condem peacefull people who are tired of putting up with idiots who call for thier distruction?
…………………………………………
Actually, I believe the truth is always 55-45, and 45-55.
Both sides here have blood on their hands.
January 3rd, 2009 at 3:34 pm
I haven’t seen any fellow ‘left-wing kooks’ support terrorism (i.e Hamas) on this forum. I have seen said people try to point out that what Israel is doing is also wrong, but getting that point across to right-wing posters on this board seems to be an exercise in futility.
Best Regards
L.W Kook
January 3rd, 2009 at 3:43 pm
I think that this mindset that:
“I’m on one side. It is ALWAYS right and good. The other side is ALWAYS wrong and evil”, is the very thinking that gives rise to terrorism and brutality.
I am neither pro Palistinian nor pro Israeli. I can see both sides but will ALWAYS speak for the side being bashed by those who are certain they are 100% right.
Remember, Osama bin Ladin is ALSO 100% certain.
Beware those who feel they only need to call one a terrorist, and any action them is then justified.
“Because I do it with one small ship, I am called a terrorist. You do it with a whole fleet and are called an emperor.”
~A pirate, from St. Augustine’s “City of God
January 3rd, 2009 at 3:53 pm
“”Compared to war, all other forms of human endeavor shrink to insignificance, God, (we) do love it so!”
Regards,
The United States
January 3rd, 2009 at 3:55 pm
“”Some radicals are DUMB enough to sit and be punched in the face over and over and over again, while doing nothing about it.”"
Matthew 5:38
Luke 6:27
Hypocrite.
Antichrist.
January 3rd, 2009 at 3:58 pm
Old,
Kinda how the liberals on this site think that everything bad comes from conservatives?
And you are wrong. I remember pierre, strongly defending what hamas is doing.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Over 6000 rocket attacks by Hamas into Israel over the last three years. Yea, I guess Israel is over reacting.
If your neighbor kicked your door in 6000 times over three what would you do?
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:17 pm
“And you are wrong. I remember pierre, strongly defending what hamas is doing.”
Posted by bilssfulconservative
…………………………
Some people think that Hamas and Israel ARE equally wrong.
They have as much right to their opinion as anyone else.
******************
“If your neighbor kicked your door in 6000 times over three what would you do?”
Posted by Willy
………………………………..
The Palistinians make the same claims.
One does it with rockets and homemade bombs, and one does it with bombers, and tanks.
One does it with our curses, and one does it with our blessing.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:26 pm
Conservatives gave us Sarah Palin.
There!
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:27 pm
Libs gave us Blago.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:35 pm
I tend to believe and support a civilized society. Hamas is not civilized and do not have any claim to that land.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Both sides are kicking in 1 anothers door 6000 times. Bring all parties to the table to work out a cease fire and peace.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:40 pm
“”Hamas is not civilized and do not have any claim to that land.”"
My question is this Willy:
How can you say that and still take yourself seriously?
Put down the Guns and Ammo magazine and pick up a history book.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:43 pm
Israel has given up land over and over again in the past, only to be answered over and over again by rocket fire, sucicide bombers, etc. by the Arab world, Hamas, etc.
Hamas does not want to talk. They want to destroy Israel. Listen to their rhetoric.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:44 pm
6000 times 6000 times ‘bock bock bock!’
Feeding time in the chicken coop that is False News!
“dangling chad dangling chad!”
“wmd wmd wmd wmd w,md wmd”
“6000 times 6000 times 6000 times!!”
Baaa..
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:45 pm
I have read history. I don’t read Guns and Ammo, although it is a good publication.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:46 pm
You’re rambling Frosty.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:46 pm
“”I have read history.”"
Fair enough Willy.
Then at the very LEAST we can agree that this whole area, before 1948, was in MUSLIM hands since the 7th century.
Until it was rent asunder by a misguided but still humanitarian effort of the UN.
To say that the Palestinian people, millions who have been driven out of their homeland have ‘no claim’ to this area is ridiculous…
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:49 pm
Never said they have claim of the land,but they are ancestor,lived their for years and some longer than the people they are fighting.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:50 pm
That is your fave line, other than stop reading your Bible. Maybe you should put down the feel good, coddle your enemy, hippie encyclopedia and come to the realization that some people just don’t want to talk their problems out.
What in all your infinite wisdom and study of the history between israel and their enemies leads you to believe that a lot of the world wants nothing better than the jewish people to be wiped off the face of the earth. And what makes you think “talking’ or being nice will solve any of their problems.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:51 pm
” you’re rambling frosty”
lol, yeah a little bit…
But my heart aches for this area and ALL the people in it, and it is painful to see people back the Israeli Goc’t and condemn millions of peaceful Palestinians just “because”…
Please look at it from a humanitarian point of view…PLEASE.
Look at the madness, Israel needs to stop, they need to lead on this…where is your leadership?
Oh yeah, clearing brush
(good work brownie)
YEEEHAWWWW
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:52 pm
yeah, the muslims really need to take more land. Mohammed taught them that they had all the land they needed, they didn’t need to take more. Mohammed also taught that israel did indeed belong to the Jewish people.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:53 pm
Insults aside, you ask:
“”And what makes you think “talking’ or being nice will solve any of their problems.”"
Because it has worked before. In Northern ireland for instance.
Did you call for all out war on the Catholic terrorists (IRA)?
No, really, did you?
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Yeah Frosty, the land was occupied by the Muslims. It was never their land. It has always belonged to Israel since Joshua crossed the Jordon River and conquered the Cannanites. By order from God.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Actually, perhaps you should pick that ole bible back up after all….”Isreal” was promised to a people, not the Jewish religion.
Is that what they teach in your church?
In fact, only 65% of isrealis believe in ‘god’, and of that, 1 in 5 are MUSLIM*
*Jewish national congress survey, 2007)
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:57 pm
… here we go.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:58 pm
I’ll leave you
so-called ‘christians with one of my favorite quotes by one of the greatest men in history 9although you probably think he was a spineless wimp and a communist, lol)
“”Everyone understands Christ’s teachings…except Christians…” – Ghandi
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Good GOD BILSS,it,s 24/7 killing their. We have to bring both sides to the table. Talk about hate lady,you seem to hate every Muslim. I,ll ask you a ? like you ask me. Have you ever been various type of people,culture and their beleifs ?
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:00 pm
The promise of Israel to the Jews can be quickly verified by checking the Old Testament: “This is the land of which I swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, ‘I will give it to your offspring’” (Deut. 34:4).
They were instructed to follow the TORAH in order to keep it
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:03 pm
Look at Ezekial 37 and the promise of a restored israel, which happened in 1948. The Jews were scattered by the Romans but regained their homeland.
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:05 pm
GOCARDS,
Where do you get the idea that I hate muslims? I don’t. I don’t appreciate terrorists throwing missiles though. And I do believe in a country’s right to defend itself. If you lived in Deleware and jersey decided to launch missiles at you over and over and over again, would you do something about it?
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:06 pm
The Israelis were freed from bondage in Egypt. God instructed Moses to lead His people to the promised land. Israel is Jewish. God promised the Jew the land they now inhabit. It doesn’t matter how many believe in God. There are Muslims living there just as there are Americans, Russians, etc…
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:09 pm
Listen to Bilsful, she is giving you the facts.
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:11 pm
Problem is, everyone wants their own facts.
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Your tone. A policy has to be inplaced. No sides should be taken. Talks need be started 24/7 with every1 at the table.
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:17 pm
Let’s not let the facts get in the way Old Lefty. lol
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:18 pm
WILLY,what about some prime longhorn t-bones. Beat Texas.
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:20 pm
… and this has been Church Chat with Willy and T Mason.
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:20 pm
How many policies/peace accords/ cease fires have they agreed to?
And those aren’t “my” facts.
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:20 pm
Being made fun of, and called names only makes my faith in God stronger. You should be glad you live in a country where making fun of a faith does not bring with it the same punishment as in many countries/religions. One of them being islam.
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:23 pm
A few:
Paris Peace Conference, 1919
Faisal-Weizmann Agreement (1919)
1949 Armistice Agreements
Camp David Accords (1978)
Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty (1979)
Reagan Plan (Sept.1, 1982)
May 17 Agreement (1983), a failed attempt of peace between Lebanon and Israel
Madrid Conference of 1991
Oslo Accords (1993)
Israel-Jordan Treaty of Peace (1994)
Camp David 2000 Summit
Geneva Accord 2003
Peace process in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict
Projects working for peace among Israelis and Arabs
International law and the Arab-Israeli conflict
Peace Valley plan
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:29 pm
I’m with ya Cards.
Let’s have a big baked potato with that longhorn steak.
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:30 pm
You’re right.
I am glad to live in the U.S. where I am free from religious persecution. I appreciate it so much I’m not going to let you have an inch… not even a school mandated prayer… or a nativity scene at the courthouse.
Mark
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:31 pm
And what have any of those accomplished Old Lefty?
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:31 pm
PFKAM,
Thanks Comrad.
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:33 pm
That hurt.
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:34 pm
My appologies.
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:35 pm
There hasn’t been such a thing as school mandated prayer as long as I can remember. A mandate is something you have to do. Does it not bother you that kindergartners have been punished for saying a prayer before they eat lunch? Many times it goes too far and you infringe on the rights of those who WANT to pray by telling them they can’t
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:49 pm
What do you want it to ‘accomplished Old Lefty’?
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:50 pm
Can I just say, please, that if this:
“”Being made fun of, and called names only makes my faith in God stronger.”
…refers to me :-)
I would like to set the record straight. I actually respect your ‘umption’ and ability to stand fast in the face of adversity. I disagree with most (but not all) of what you post about God, and especially the bible.
And of course your hawkish views, but good on you for holding the line!
and whoever said it is right…we here in the west enjoy the privelege of open debate, although ‘freedom of speech’ is probably overrated if one has no access to clean water or food for one’s family…
peace
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:53 pm
Old Lefty.
??????????
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:54 pm
Okay, you’re wearing me out but I’ll bite…. Please site the example.
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:54 pm
Relax, Frosty. I’m pretty sure she was talking to me.
Mark
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:57 pm
The story about the kindergarten kid:
The lawsuit stems from June 1998, when Antonio Peck and his classmates at the Catherine McNamara Elementary School in Baldwinsville, N.Y., were given an assignment to create a poster about the environment.
In dismissing the case the first time, Mordue said Weichert had good reasons for rejecting the poster: It didn’t fulfill the assignment, it may not have been Antonio’s work and it could have given other parents the impression the school district was teaching religion.
The other story: Pray to Play: Texas School Defies Supreme Court on Prayer at Games
School officials in Celina, Texas have not only decided to violate federal law but they have decided to flaunt their refusal to comply with constitutional rulings of the Supreme Court. The school continues to incorporate Christian prayers into its games. In a recent game, Celina coach Butch Ford said: “Our goal (against Liberty Hill) was to play with the joy of the Lord in our heart so we’d play excited all of the time, and we wouldn’t be down no matter what happened….” They might not be the only ones “excited all of the time” that they play.
What is fascinating is that school officials usually teach children that they must comply with the law. Yet, here the officials are telling students that it does not matter if the Constitution and the federal courts prohibit conduct: religious beliefs trump federal law
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:57 pm
That’s the kindergartner punished for saying prayer before lunch?
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:00 pm
In this case, yes Old Lefty.
What is the problem with this? I don’t see the state establishing a religion.
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:02 pm
These two cases are interesting, but not the one I am referring to.
Denying someone the right to pray is an infringement on their rights. funny that you only want to protect those who choose NOT to engage in prayer.
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:02 pm
WHAT HAPPENED TO MY KID THAT COULDN’T SAY GRACE BEFORE LUNCH?
I WANT TO GO TO BAT FOR HIM!
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:05 pm
Since when does saying a prayer before one eats or plays a football game an establishment of religion? I don’t see the connection. The people have the right to go buy a hotdog or whatever during the prayer. They are not forced by the state to bow their head in prayer.
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:05 pm
I apologize. The case I was talking about I got mixed up with a second case. I just read about these last week. The case involving the cafeteria involved a fourth grader, at Waring Elementaryin St. Louis missouri.
You should also research a case in Dekalb County, AL where they wanted a prayer monitor to ensure NO student/teacher engaged in prayer and actually paid a policemen money to monitor whether anyone prayed at school.
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:08 pm
Forget about the pre-game prayer. That’s different.
Every time I ask T Mason to document something, she disappears or claims liberaland won’t let her provide the information.
Do I have to go back to the 9th commandment card again?
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:09 pm
The case of the kindergartner happened in saratoga springs, New York. The kid said “god is great, god is good” prayer while holding hands with some of her friends at a snack table. the school board ordered her NEVER to say that prayer at school again
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:10 pm
Okay. Kindergarten… 4th grade… doesn’t matter. Where did you find this story?
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:11 pm
there you go pfkam, i had to look it up…don’t want to present falsehoods
the litle girl’s name was kayla broadus
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:11 pm
… now it’s a group prayer. Where can I read the story?
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:12 pm
There are several sources for these cases. One, the web has some of them. #2 , the book Persecution
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:14 pm
The school system in new york ended up settling without going to trial, and allowed her to say the prayer out loud without punishment.
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:15 pm
In the words of Karen Carpenter: “Bless the beasts and the childres for in this world they have no voice… they have no choice…”
In this war whether intentional or “collateral damage”, children will suffer and just as for those babies for whose unborn life we strive to protect… let’s not forget the already born, regardless of the stinking government their parents have chosen to elect. It wasn’t their fault. The grown-ups on both sides of the fence need to come to the table and stop this nonsense.
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:15 pm
I hate to bring up science on a liberalland thread…
…but if anyone else has bothered to read “The God Delusion” by Richard Dawkins (who by the way is a world reknowned evolutionary biologist first, atheist second)
He has a great explanation for why some people believe so strongly in a god or gods…it was an evolutioanery advantage during the beginnings of human conciousness a hundred thousand years ago…
Fascinating.
And (don’t worry PFkam, I don’t feel too bad, lol) as our level of conciousness is raised more and more with each generation, and a belief in a ‘god’(s) fades away along with with our fears and superstions about the natural world, it is natural that a small minority of the populace will cling on to religion to the bitter end…
My point?
Grace!
You christians sit around your table and give thanks to your ‘god’ for your bountilful meal, what rubbish!
What about the millions of people who are going hungry tonight? Did they anger your god by an accident of their birth? Maybe they are less worthy than you? Maybe they didn’t pray hard enough? lol
Did their brown skin offend your blonde-haired, blue-eyed Jesus?
Or should you REALLY be giving thanks to the (immigrant) farmers, truck drivers,(also mostly immigrants) and retail/warehouse workers (yes) ETC ETC that REALLY brought you your food?
grace? GRACE?
DON’T MAKE ME LAUGH
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:19 pm
oops, capitals, sorry
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:20 pm
And now for the rest of the story…
There was never a problem with the girl praying before lunch. There was a problem with her praying OUT LOUD and SOLICITING OTHER STUDENTS TO JOIN HER.
It has a happy ending though. Her parents threatened to sue and now she can pray out loud so all the other little kids are subject to it whether they like it or not.
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:20 pm
yeah, well that makes me wish I could go back in time and stand up for what I beleive in…
…there is only ONE life, this is it, be nice and try to contribute, and when you die – it’s only natural!
Now live with it!
And enjoy.
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:31 pm
Okay. Well, I promised TRA I wouldn’t crack on Bush anymore today so I guess I’m out of things to say.
Goodnight Frosty, Old Lefty, TRA, Willy, & T Mason.
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:35 pm
Good night PFKAM
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:53 pm
Have a good one PFKAM.
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:58 pm
And by the way, and then I am done for the night, a chickenhawk isn’t defined by party affiliation, though you would like to make it so.
A chickenhawk is ANYONE who sends troops to war or into ANY military action when they themselves have NOT served. so by that definition if Obama or Biden utilizes our military they are chickenhawks.
January 3rd, 2009 at 11:33 pm
People from the bible : the Moses’s story was copied from the Misis Mythology in Egypt, as well as the Jesus myth.
January 4th, 2009 at 12:55 am
@ Old Lefty
“The world is made up for the most part of morons and natural tyrants, sure of themselves, strong in their own opinions, never doubting anything.”
Clarence Darrow
Hey man, 95% of the time I agree with you. Israel certainly has done some questionable things now and over the years. But Hamas’s mission is simply to kill civilians. That’s the only reason that they’re firing those rockets. Israel may be a bit overzealous in their response, but it’s hard to fault them for going after Hamas targets when Hamas is threatening the safety of Israeli civilians. I really wish that the Israelis and Palestinians could just get along too, but with Hamas in power it’s difficult, as they don’t respect Israel’s right to exist.
When it comes to a solution to the conflict though, I SUPPORT a two state solution and a Palestinian right of return. Palestinians who have been forced out of their homes and villages in what is now Israel should have every right to return there should they choose to. And The Palestinians also deserve to be able to govern themselves in their own territories so that they can live side by side with Israel.
I would love for both sides to give peace a chance here, but as long as Hamas keeps winning elections and instigating this kind of violence, it’s going to be difficult. Maybe it WOULD be worth it to try to engage Hamas for this reason. It probably won’t work, but it’s at least worth a try.
January 4th, 2009 at 2:14 am
Michael,
I’m not even so sure that a Palestinian right of return is even possible.
I understand when you say, “But Hamas’s mission is simply to kill civilians.”, however I fear that as long as one side has ONLY rockets and the other side has tanks, fighter jets and bombers, they will continue to see the only two options:continue , or sit in your refugee camps, and shut up.
Sadly, I think that when Hamas won the elections, our administration COULD have said, ‘We didn’t want YOU to win, but since you did, here are our incentives…here are our disincentives…instead, they plotted a covert coup attempt against Hamas.
Amazing thing is, we have a Jewish friend who was born and raised in India, lived in Singapore, now in Toronto.
He claims the ultra orthodox Jews in Israel, are suppling arms to Hamas, because they see their REAL enemy as the secular Jews.
Of course he doesn’t know anymore than anybody else, so take it for what it’s worth, which is, not much, but when you are dealing with real zealots, you never know….just look at the orthodox Jewish “modesty squads”, they are also, throwing acid at girls and women.
January 4th, 2009 at 9:11 am
Old Lefty,
You’re right. It’s a sad situation on both sides. It’s a hard issue for me to comment on because as much as I hate the violence, it’s hard to know what to say. Does Israel have a right to defend itself? Yes, but their response is certainly quite disproportionate to the problem.
Israel’s done a lot of things over the years to cause the Palestinians to be rightfully angry with them, but it’s hard to try to right those wrongs when Hamas just insists on constantly firing rockets. If Israel retaliates, then that just escalates the violence. If they don’t, they just have to keep enduring rocket fire.
Engaging Hamas may help, but they have to be willing to listen to reason and accept compromise. So far they have not shown any signs that they would do so.
But the reality is I have no idea what will work and what won’t. It just seems really hopeless to me, unfortunately.
January 4th, 2009 at 4:36 pm