Ground War!
January 3rd, 2009, 2:29 PM EST
Israeli tanks have crossed into Gaza, escalating the war to the next level. Tanks backed by helicopters advance, in spite of international pressure and calls for a cease-fire.
French President Nicolas Sarkozy is visiting the region next week, and U.S. President Bush and U.N. chief Ban Ki-moon both spoke in favor of an internationally monitored truce.
President Bush, in a radio address taped Friday, accused Hamas of an “act of terror” in its rocket attacks into Israel and suggested that no cease-fire would be acceptable without monitoring to halt the flow of weapons to terrorist groups.
But Hamas, in its first reaction to the proposal on Saturday, seemed cool to the idea of international monitors
President Who?
January 3rd, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Bush described the Hamas electoral victory as a “coup”. Yeah I guess he would know.
January 3rd, 2009 at 2:54 pm
these “internationally monitored truce[s]” DON’T work.
They should send America’s micro-managing corporate supervisors in to discuss a “Performance Improvement Plan” that gets them to the ROOT CAUSE of their damned decades long dispute. Add in several thousand pictures of the dead, maybe that’ll finally work.
January 3rd, 2009 at 3:16 pm
4MoreYears~ Alan is referring to President Bush. You know, the guy who’s been ignoring the rising tension on the Gaza Strip the last week or so. That guy.
January 3rd, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Hamas doesn’t care about pics of the dead. Remmeber, they fight a fair fight by sending in women and children with bombs strapped to themselves.
January 3rd, 2009 at 3:23 pm
Meanwhile: Bush, Rice and their team are pulling all-nighters and flying back and forth trying to work out a peaceful resolution to end the violence.
–snort–
The Rapture is getting closer. They only have another couple of weeks to get things moving.
Are you ready?
Call back and let us poor souls “left behind” know how the trip went.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Hamas needs to be taught a lesson this time!!!
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:19 pm
Gaza is almost like a concentration camp. It’s a turkey shoot.
Ironic, that is.
Proof only that people never change and we’re all the same.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:19 pm
Why does anyone on the left or right think this problem will ever be solved? has it ever stopped? No. Israel is defending itself. And there is such a thing as a right side and a wrong side, good and bad, even if you don’t want to recognize or accept that fact.
Hamas is a terrorist organization, just like hezbollah.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:22 pm
Impossible to reduce the tenisons by favoring 1 side. We should not take sides.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:31 pm
It doesn’t matter to Hamas Cards. All they want is death to Israel.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:34 pm
“”Remmeber, they fight a fair fight by sending in women and children with bombs strapped to themselves.”"
Fair fight is it?
Good grief.
Put down your bible and pick up a history book.
Where do you think the concept of ’suicide bombing’ originated, huh. By god’s chosen people in the 40’s and 50’s that’s where.
What fair about this ground war?
.
Israeli leaders know they must act fast before they lose the ‘warm fuzzy rage’ of the people.
So far the death toll is 2000-25 Israel. That may change.
Fair fight.
Maybe when the Catholics in Northern Ireland were bombing, London should have dropped a nuke?
How’d that suit ya?
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:39 pm
God is watching over His chosen people. That is why the death toll is so lobsided.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:42 pm
I didn’t know you had to be “fair” in order to win a war or protect yourself.
Get that notion from patton did ya?
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Hamas knows Israel has more fire power and military strength than they do, yet they still fire rockets into Israel. What did Hamas expect Israel to do?
Hamas started this round. Now, they are getting their teeth kicked in and want the rest of the world to save them. Maybe they should have just left Israel alone.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:49 pm
“”Hamas knows Israel has more fire power and military strength than they do, yet they still fire rockets into Israel.”"
I thought they were ‘cowards’!? What gives?
Sounds more like the ‘Alamo’ to me, lol
Or maybe David to your Goliath…but ‘cowards’?
Hardly.
And THIS statement, by an otherwise well-spoken, (but oft-times wrong), poster
“”God is watching over His chosen people. That is why the death toll is so lobsided.”"
Is why I am an Anti-theist…
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:08 pm
“”I didn’t know you had to be “fair” in order to win a war or protect yourself.”‘
It helps.
The US should try it some time.
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:09 pm
Good.
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:12 pm
I’ve never called Hamas cowards. It takes onions to pick a fight you know you can’t win. I would also say it takes a lot of stupidity and a little bit of insanity.
(I’m now sitting here….patiently waiting for the wise cracks about President Bush.)
Before they come, the war in Iraq is being won. Iraq has taken over the vast majority of security, and they are now planning and carrying out some operations with no US help.
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:17 pm
That was so funny you deserve a pass, TRA. Just for that I’m not gonna crack on Bush for the rest of the day…I promise.
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:44 pm
“”Before they come, the war in Iraq is being won.”"
And what, exactly have you won?
You have spent a trillion dollars, nearly bankrupted your country, killed tens of thousands of innocents…for what?
Under Saddam (who was a murderous tyrant, given) there was a secular gov’t (Not Islamic) no serious threat (he had to bloviate to save face, like o-Reilly, lol)
And all you have done is anger Muslims and horrify the reast of the world!!
Fortunately, with the election of Obama, we are ready to move on…are you?
Let Dubya retire in peace…stop embarrasing him by defending him with false arguements…it’s like sticking up for your drunk uncle that ruined the wedding…let him sleep it off back in Texas…
Meanwhile, welcome GOP and Dems alike to a new age in America, welcome back to your proper place as the respected nation you once were….Already there’s a gentle wind blowing over the US…the world is optimistic…
And Hey, if Obama disappoints, you can always elect Miss Sarah in 2012 and bring back the good ole days!
God Bless America, may she finally do what she needs to and step up to the plate…
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:46 pm
You sound like you want us to be a nation full of marhshmallows so our enemies can stick us in the fire and watch us melt at will.
That new air you talk about is going to get sucked out quickly when the reality of being president, and not simply a suit sinks in and he has to get down to business.
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:52 pm
And I don’t think it took President Bush to anger muslims. If I remember correctly they were attacking us and our interests LONG before he took office.
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:53 pm
BADMRFROSTY—Of the Muslims who are angered about our presence in Iraq, I suspect they are more angry that we are succeeding. Iraq is a young, fragile democracy. IMO, that is what is making them angry.
I also suspect that many of those specifically in Iraq who are angry are the same ones who were living the good life under Saddam.
Blissfulconservative’s post at 5:53 got me to wondering. Did we have a military presence in the Middle East prior to the hostages being taken in Iran in 1978?
I ask for two reasons. One, I don’t know and am curious. Two, I have often heard that the Arab world is upset that we have bases in their land. If didn’t have bases in their land, what was their reason for taking the hostages then?
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:04 pm
PFKAM—Glad I was able to add a little humor to all this. :-)
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:05 pm
I hope my last post stays up so you can access the web page
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:37 pm
TRA, you are a breath of fresh air on here lately…
I appreciate your candor on not being aware of the grievous actions of the US prior to the hostage incident.
Long story short, they were religious fundamentalist students that were opposed to what they say as the US’s interference with their Islamic revolution, and your prooping up of the previous gov’t, the US-friendly ‘Shah’…
It’s a deep subject, but yes, the US has been meddling in their affairs since, well since the discovery that petroleum distillate would replace coal, and thus usurp Britain as the rulers of the world…lol
And before that even…
But one thing, TRA…you say Iraq is a young fragile democracy….what makes you think that democracy is the magic bullet for this part of the world?
After all, the biggest democracy in the world (India) is right next door and that hasn’t influenced anyone, has it?
“Democracy, the worst possible system (barring all others) – Churchill
you can’t force it, can you? Let it evolve naturally
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:52 pm
“God is watching over His chosen people. That is why the death toll is so lobsided.”
So God is killing the Palestinians? Interesting. And when the rapture comes, He will then kill the Jews because they don’t believe that Jesus was the son of God. Very interesting, indeed.
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:55 pm
God is watching over Israel, He is not killing anyone.
You know, the word rapture is not mentioned in the Bible.
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:59 pm
Here’s something that will freak some people out:
Israeli author, Amos Oz, said,
“Both parties, in two different ways, are victims of Christian Europe: the Arabs through colonialism, imperialism, oppression and exploitation, while the Jews have been the victims of discrimination, pogroms, expulsions and, ultimately, mass murder.”
Let’s not forget, The greatest atrocity committed against the Jewish people was NOT a the hands of the Arabs.
And by the way, In India, the Muslim community in Mumbai says it doesn’t want the gunmen who attacked Mumbai to be buried in the Muslim cemetery.
A spokesman for the Muslim council said, “”These terrorists are a black spot on our religion, we will very sternly protest the burial of these terrorists in our cemetery .
January 3rd, 2009 at 7:01 pm
Gotta go.
Have a good night TDRO, Bilssful, Frosty.
January 3rd, 2009 at 7:01 pm
Now, you see why crazy Iran is working on a Nuke! And don’t tell me that they don’t have the right to defend themselves, as every other nation.
January 3rd, 2009 at 7:04 pm
“Gaza is almost like a concentration camp. It’s a turkey shoot.”
Yeah. Only that Israel isn’t after the turkeys. In fact, Israel is making phone calls to each house about to be bombed, letting the “turkeys” living inside know that terrorists have been using their home as a rocket warehouse. That they should get away so they don’t get hurt.
Phone calls, pamphlets, whatnot. Everything to keep the civilians out of harm’s way. But Hammas is still using mosques as armories.
January 3rd, 2009 at 7:08 pm
Thank god bush is on the way !!
and this time with a lighter wallet and a little more educated when it comes to flying shoes
January 3rd, 2009 at 7:11 pm
“You know, the word rapture is not mentioned in the Bible.”
Tell that to Pat Robertson. He’s counting on the rapture.
January 3rd, 2009 at 7:16 pm
Iraq is an Islamic Republic, EXACTLY the same kind of democracy as Iran.
January 3rd, 2009 at 7:24 pm
“Hamas is a terrorist organization, just like hezbollah.
bilssfulconservative”
Same thing said in Arabic except exchange in USA, Israel, Europe. Thanks for helping! You keep doing that, they keep this. We all get to die.
“They should send America’s micro-managing corporate supervisors in to discuss a “Performance Improvement Plan” that gets them to the ROOT CAUSE of their damned decades long dispute. Add in several thousand pictures of the dead, maybe that’ll finally work. CherylCarroll”
So we should send in a bunch of greedy warhounds into Gaza … I think we tried that before somewhere …
Somehow I don’t think a bunch of ‘infidels’ or whatever they call us these days are going to get much done. Why not send in the Chinese Army and just see what they want to do about it?
January 3rd, 2009 at 8:16 pm
Only part I don’t understand, as someone who understands the difference between a tactic and strategy (McCain the flip-flopper quote), is why Israel didn’t do this immediately. It is not a preferred option but under the density of civilian bystanders in the conflict it is the ‘hands-tied’ solution. But they bombed the living monkeys out of the place before going in. With all due respect to the Israels this is smacking of the ’shock and awe’ that proved unsound for USA.
January 3rd, 2009 at 8:21 pm
“”“You know, the word rapture is not mentioned in the Bible.””‘
Not specifically, although in revelations there is a similar description of the end of days and the death of the non-believers etc etc….
…all written by a man alone for months on an island who probably ate some bad cheese…
But there IS a huge contingent of radical christian fundamentalists who have twisted the religion around to suit their own purposes….the so-called ‘born-agaians’ and so on…they twist the bible to suit their own selfish desires…they are “first in line for heaven”…
When in fact, they should give thanks to their god that she DOESN’T exist…
yeah Eric, I agree – better idea though1
Why don’t some of these ‘end-of-times’ nuts create their own army and go over there to help their prophecy come true?
After all, as the polls show, their radical big ‘C’ christianity is repulsive to an increasing number of Americans anyway, so why not put their money where their mouths are?….
January 3rd, 2009 at 8:24 pm
“”Iraq is an Islamic Republic, EXACTLY the same kind of democracy as Iran.”"
yeah, well…it is NOW (?!) it wasn’t before (as you know of course, OL, I get your point :-))
Good job, brownie
YEEEEHAWWWWWWW!!!!!
January 3rd, 2009 at 8:25 pm
Every nation needs Nuclear Bonbs to prevent CONVENTIONAL/ PREEMPTIVE WAR CRIMES. It’s too easy for some coward nations . Only then, will there be peace.
January 3rd, 2009 at 8:35 pm
haven’t heard anyone comment on the fact that we turned over control in the green zone to the iraqi’s.
January 3rd, 2009 at 8:52 pm
Bombs AWAY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hilary’s libel to get get her [self] tossed out of Israel,remember when she hugged arafats wife?[uck].
All the way to Iran baby !!!!! Right Jimmy Carter? LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!
January 3rd, 2009 at 8:53 pm
“Why don’t some of these ‘end-of-times’ nuts create their own army and go over there to help their prophecy come true?”
Because they’re cowards, that’s why. They’re real tough talkers in the safety of their own homes, but wouldn’t dream of fighting for a cause they believe in. Much like the young republicans and the Iraq war.
January 3rd, 2009 at 8:56 pm
TDRO,
Christians, unlike the guy in Iran, do not believe we have to do anything to usher in end times. IT will happen no matter what we do or don’t do. Muslim extremists think it honorable to die a martyr, I value my life and the lives of others.
There is your answer.
January 3rd, 2009 at 9:00 pm
Blissful:
I don’t think you value the lives of others as you say you do, because if you did, you would want our troops home instead of dying in an unnecessary war. And, regardless of how you spin it, the Iraq war is UNNECESSARY.
January 3rd, 2009 at 9:07 pm
TDRO,
I am not nieve enough to believe that freedom is free, that there will be peace on earth, or that our enemies will leave us alone if we play nice. Tell the iraqis that are happy to out from under sadam that this war was unnecessary. Tell them that what we did was in vain, especially the ones in the green zone who proudly took over recently. Tell them it wasn’t worth it.
I value the life of every troop who has VOLUNTARILY served this country with honor and patriotism because they believe in what they are doing. And believe it or not, they do feel that what they are doing is good and right. I have friends and family who are or have served in mutliple missions, including the one at hand. Two of them had an opportunity to get out, but volunteered to extend their time because they felt they could do more good staying in longer.
You can sti on here and act like everyone who supports the war is evil, bad bad bad. That is your opinion. And you can thank a soldier for you being able to have that opinoin freely, without fear of persecution. (unlike the unfortunate folks in iraq, over 600,000 who were murdered while sadam was in power)
January 3rd, 2009 at 9:13 pm
“Tell the iraqis that are happy to out from under sadam that this war was unnecessary. Tell them that what we did was in vain,”
… at the cost of 4000+ American and million of Iraqi lives.
“And you can thank a soldier for you being able to have that opinoin freely, without fear of persecution.”
And you can thank a soldier who is dying so you can sit thousands of miles away in the safety of your home cheerleading a disastrous, unnecessary war.
January 3rd, 2009 at 9:36 pm
You really don’t get it.
January 3rd, 2009 at 9:51 pm
bilssfulconservative,
I’m done for the night, but I just have to say, nobody thinks that everyone who supports the war is evil, just duped by the neo cons.
Nobody thinks that freedom is free, just that it has nothing to do with Iraq.
And you can thank a soldier for you being able to have that opinoin freely, without fear of persecution, but our concern is that our troops are seldom used to guard OUR freedoms.
I’m sure you would the first to speak out if you thought their commander in chief was lying and they were being used for nefarious reasons, even if not everyone else agreed with you.
January 3rd, 2009 at 10:00 pm
One last thing,
What makes you think YOU get it?
January 3rd, 2009 at 10:01 pm
obviously those of you who hate bush, blame him for every bad thing under the sun, use the term chickenhawk only to identify republicans, and pick and choose which problems we should get involved in based on WHO is commander in chief think you have all the answers.
I am really tired of people telling me that because I don’t dog the president or talk trash about our military that somehow I don’t value human life.
What makes me think I get it? I don’t get my info from liberal commentators, liberal blogs, or second hand information. I have actual talked to folks who are actively involved in this and they have seen first hand the good things that have come out of this. Regardless if you want to acknowledge it or not, that is fact. The MSM doesn’t report the good things because violence, death and doom and gloom sell ratings and breed controversy.
So continue to batter, belittle, and look down your nose at me for standing my ground and continuing to support our military wholeheartedly. I am sorry that you refuse to step off your pacifist podium to see many of the positives that have come out of the war in Iraq.
January 3rd, 2009 at 10:12 pm
They should send our troops to guard our BORDERS !
No more dope or illegals commin in !
But then the peeps in the hood wouldn’t have nuffin to do !
January 3rd, 2009 at 10:20 pm
This was written by a Democrat who was against the war initially
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2003850954_bairdop24.html
January 3rd, 2009 at 10:21 pm
Nafta, and the republicans ,and the democrats, EXPORTED all of our good jobs!!!!! Toyota don’t hire out of the hood !
January 3rd, 2009 at 10:23 pm
http://www.las.illinois.edu/news/2005/soldier/
And a soldier who is also a college student who came home and said it is worth it. there are thousands of stories like these if you would just listen instead of playing politics with it
January 3rd, 2009 at 10:35 pm
Hey all you Palestinian-loving liberals:
Hamas STARTED this. Firing rocket after rocket into Israel and you idiot liberals want Israel to just lay back & take it. Hamas started this; Israel will end it. Long live Israel.
And Alan, for God’s sake….eat a cheeseburger already.
January 3rd, 2009 at 10:37 pm
“”Christians, unlike the guy in Iran, do not believe we have to do anything to usher in end times.”"
And this type of big “C” christian nonsense, TDRO, is precisely why we need to stop the radicals in the US. They are indoctrinating their children, poisoning their minds…acting against the very teachings of their so-called ‘Christ’!!
It’s dangerous! It was fine with the traditional religions..the Anglicans, the Presbyterians, even the ignorant fools that call themselves the ‘Southern Baptists”…
But now, with this ‘rapture’ nonsense – It’s a cult. A cult of frightened, lonely, ignorant people who find comfort in believing that they are first in line for heaven! Sound familiar? 72 Virgins? You Bet!!!
End of times, indeed!
““The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
Join me to fight the chaos, deception and lies that is religion!
Become, as I am, an active anti-theist!
We can eliminate this scourge, and allow humanistic compassion to rule the world that religion has used for its own gain for thousands of years!
Google it: “Anti-theist”
January 3rd, 2009 at 10:41 pm
“MSM doesn’t report the good things because violence, death and doom and gloom sell ratings and breed controversy.”
Is that why they didn’t show flag-draped coffins of our dead heroes who you claim to support? Do you support our military by continuing to cheerlead Bush’s failed policy?
You really don’t get it!
And by the way, only republicans are chickenhawks. And don’t give me that Clinton and Obama are chickenhawks crap, because Bush and Cheney were all too happy to send our troops to their deaths, while they themselves were too cowardly to serve when it was their turn, not Clinton and Obama.
By the way, they could sure use your help in Iraq. Why don’t you volunteer so one of our heroes can come home to his/her family?
January 3rd, 2009 at 10:44 pm
“…. see many of the positives that have come out of the war in Iraq…”
ACKKKK!!!
Sorry, that one caused me to spit coffee out my nose!
The only ‘positives’ have been that you have pretty well bankrupted yourself to dispose one of many ‘evil’ dictators’ that rule….it’s just this one tried to kill Dubya’s kin!
HAHAHAHA
Thank your ‘god’ that there may be a change in direction for the US, thanks to 80% of you, GOP and DEMS alike realizing that it’s not too late!
January 3rd, 2009 at 10:45 pm
Hey Blissful Conservative!
I too am blissful and here’s why;
It’s has been proven in study after study that conservatives are simply happier than liberals in EVERY aspect of life. Even a liberal columnist in our paper admitted that he believes this to be true. Really no sense arguing with these unhappy libs. They love misery. And misery loves them.
January 3rd, 2009 at 10:49 pm
Great idea, TDRO….
…bring in the draft, only exempt all youth from families that have a net income of under $50,000!!
(These families NEED their sons and daughters!)
Every other child is available, Ivy- league college, daddy’s influence, or not!
Perfect!
We’ll see how long support for useless and misguided and illegal war continues!
January 3rd, 2009 at 10:50 pm
“”It’s has been proven in study after study that conservatives are simply happier than liberals in EVERY aspect of life. Even a liberal columnist in our paper admitted that he believes this to be true. Really no sense arguing with these unhappy libs. They love misery. And misery loves them.”"
I too, as a former high school teacher, have worked with
‘always happy (never questioning)’ students. And I have found that, even with their Down’s Syndrome and other developmental disabilities…I have found them to be a real inspiration and joy.
At least we agree there!
:-)
January 3rd, 2009 at 10:53 pm
You make me smile Special K. (: Hey, but they do say: “IGNORANCE is bliss.”
January 3rd, 2009 at 10:56 pm
“They love misery. And misery loves them.”
Posted by special k
So THAT’s why the conservatives come to a liberal site to piss and moan. I guess misery loves company.
January 3rd, 2009 at 11:00 pm
FREE EVERYTHING InternetSurfShack.com
January 3rd, 2009 at 11:13 pm
I keep thinking I should say something, but what?
January 3rd, 2009 at 11:17 pm
President Bush Who?
January 3rd, 2009 at 11:25 pm
Bad,
EVery family NEED their son and daughter. This isn’t about class warfare, though you seem to try and sneak that in everyone blog alan posts.
thank God my husband served for almost 20 years. I think he paid his debt, and I mine.
January 3rd, 2009 at 11:30 pm
And for you to devalue the life of anyone who makes over 50 grand becaue you want to make this about income is SICK
January 3rd, 2009 at 11:31 pm
I most wonder if so much of the world can be wrong about Israel. Is it the case of something America isn’t seeing or accepting, or is our support for Israel a case us being the lone voice of truth?
A first cousin, 3x removed, moved to an Israeli border kibbutz (I don’t know which border, or the name of the kibbutz), possibly before the creation of the Israeli State in 1948 (I’m awaiting information on just when she and her husband settled in Israel). Her father is said to have been a victim of the Holocaust, but I don’t know when and how yet.
I mention that because, although it doesn’t greatly effect me in an overtly emotional way, I do wonder about heritage and the loyalty which is often expected go with it. My cousin’s decendants may still live in Israel, but I can’t say Israel is right, or wrong.
Millions are against it. Why? is it that clear cut?
January 3rd, 2009 at 11:35 pm
I’ll check back in later, so I’m not participating in debate or conversation right now. I just wanted to throw in some of my perspective.
January 3rd, 2009 at 11:39 pm
Good nite all, remember it will take republicans a week longer to become communists !!!!!
George Bush proved that with the patriot act. Voted in overwelmingly by the liberal democrats !!!
[wait till Obama gets his hands on the patriot act !
January 3rd, 2009 at 11:41 pm
WFG,
If israel were a muslim country and the roles were reversed, if muslims had suffered in the holocaust, would the reaction be the same?
January 3rd, 2009 at 11:41 pm
The rich republicans are the ones who want this war, therefore I say let them fight it.
I think you are afraid that if the draft was reinstated, either you or your children would be called up.
If that happens. we’ll see how long you keep supporting this useless, misguided and illegal war.
It’s easy to support a war when you don’t have to fight it. Bush,Cheney and John Bolton know that all too well.
If that happens,
January 3rd, 2009 at 11:48 pm
You know WFG, I have to believe that despite Bush himself being somewhat ignorant (trying to be nice here), the US government has to be filled with fairly successful/intelligent people. Besides, I’m not sure I would say staunch support for Israel is a purely Republican/Conservative doctrine.
I’m just not really sure what the main political reasons for this are though? e.g Is it because of the number of Jewish voters in the US? Is it because of economic issues (although I don’t get that argument because the US actually gives billions in aid each year) ? Or is it because of the importance of maintaining a strong ally or counterbalance where most of the worlds oil supplies exist? Or something else as a foolish liberal that I’m missing here..
I don’t think the main reasoning here is ’supporting the good-guys’ based on the fact the US doesn’t care/speak out or take real action in places like Sudan or Burma/Myanmar..
January 4th, 2009 at 12:50 am
WFG,
If israel were a muslim country and the roles were reversed, if muslims had suffered in the holocaust, would the reaction be the same?
Posted by bilssfulconservative
January 3rd, 2009 at 11:41 pm
I don’t know what it would be. But if you want me to tell you what I believe, I’ll admit that I doubt it would.
January 4th, 2009 at 2:03 am
Lee, I suspect many Liberal Jews, although empathetic to the Palestinians, are ultimately pro Israel. Alan may be the same, but his position on this issue isn’t clear to me.
January 4th, 2009 at 2:08 am
To comment further to Blissful, my doubt is mostly based in a conflicted feeling that such mass outrage is either justified, or a case of group think gone terribly wrong. When so many denounce you, even hate you, it’s hard to believe consistency would be given if the history was the same but the roles reversed.
January 4th, 2009 at 2:11 am
bilssfulconservative,
From everything I have read here, don’t YOU “and pick and choose which problems we should get involved in based on WHO is commander in chief?”
YOU certainly seem to act like you ” have all the answers.”
You say YOU are really tired of people telling you that because you don’t dog the president or talk trash about our military that somehow you don’t value human life, but don’t you tell us that because WE don’t believe the president, or support his policies, that WE are Anti American and don’t understand the cost of freedom like you do?
Don’t YOU continuously confuse trashing the small elite few with whom we trust the most awesome power with “trashing the military”? Question the mission = “trashing the troops? It’s a nice shield for the powerful to hide behind.
You say, “What makes me think I get it? I don’t get my info from liberal commentators, liberal blogs, or second hand information.” WE say , I don’t get my info from CONSERVATIVE commentators, CONSERVATIVE blogs, or second hand information. We ALL know actual folks who are involved in this and seen first hand, and we see disparate, views.
You assume the MSM doesn’t cover the news YOU want to hear, but did you say that when the conservative MSM was covering the Balkans? Were THEY trashing the military OR the president?
You don’t seem to realize that YOU come across as “belittling, and look down your nose at the left for standing OUR ground and continuing to support our military (remember, Tom Delay said, “You can support the troops but not the president”) AND our constitution.
Of course there are positives in Iraq, there were positives when we helped prop up Sadaam, there were positives in Iran when we installed the Shah, there were positives in Afganistan when we armed the wackadoodles, but it is ALWAYS trading short term gain for long term pain.
It is ALWAYS emotional, feel good, for right now, that results in disaster 20 years down the road, and then the C. Rice “Nobody could have seen THIS coming.”, but those who do are ALWAYS relegated to the “blame America first crowd” and their warnings pushed aside, and the predictable consequences AGAIN met with shock.
January 4th, 2009 at 9:50 am
TDRO,
Last night you said “The rich republicans are the one who want this war, therefore I say let them fight it.”
Then how about this idea. The liberals are the ones who want to pay higher and higher taxes and national health care, therefore I say let them pay the higher taxes and let them fund national health care.
January 4th, 2009 at 11:08 am
Everyone ready to hear about (all next week) Ann Coulter’s new book? I wonder sometimes, how many folks in the R party try to encourage her to find a new vocation. Talk about a rip-off artist – she is at the top of the list with along with Glen Beck and Dick Morris.
January 4th, 2009 at 11:39 am
Believe it or not OLD, contrary to popular liberal belief you can support the troops AND the war and still not want them to be harmed.
January 4th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Believe it or not bilssfulconservative, contrary to popular CONSERVATIVE belief you can support the troops AND feel it is your duty to prevent them from being put in harm’s way unnecessarily, AND want them to get the benefits they deserve when they get back.
I can only speak for myself, but I never suggested that conservatives feel lack concern for the troops, I have not had the same courtesy of that assumption from many conservatives who accept as conventional wisdom that liberals hate the troops, even though in recent years more Democrats have been vets.
January 4th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
more democrats have been vets? Where do you get your numbers? If that is the case, why then, does the active military vote overwhelmingly republican?
And yes, you can only speak for yourself because I have been told MULTIPLE times on this very site that if I support the war then I do not value the lives of the soldiers.
January 4th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
Anyone that thinks a cause is worth dying for should be willing to die for it themselves.
And no, you don’t get credit for your husband’s time served.
January 4th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Well, I am glad you think the hardship, heartache, sacrifice, and hard work that military families go through everyday isn’t up to par as far as you are concerned to be considered service to this country.
I will pass that along to the military wives I know who have been without their husbands for the past year or more.
January 4th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Okay. I am amending my first statement.
You get credit for a family member CURRENTLY SERVING for the cause… no credit for past service if not directly linked to the same cause.
Try to wiggle out of that one.
January 4th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Well, then I will pass on to all the women that the sacrifices they made in the past don’t count as far as you are concerned. Even the women who lost husbands, the husbands who lost wives, the children who lost parents, the parents who lost children,those suffering from PTSD, missing limbs, brain injuries, etc etc etc.
If your family member’s service isn’t currenty then it just isn’t good enough.
January 4th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
They get credit for the cause to which they lost their lives or well being… which was hopefully worth it. That has nothing to do with any unnecessary wars going forward.
You’re trying to find a way to get credit for military bravery without actually participating. That’s B.S.
January 4th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
I’m not ready to give credit just yet…. Hmmm what was the mothers name who lost her son and the right labeled her as a wacko, unpatriotic etc etc
January 4th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
Cindy Sheehan?
January 4th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Excellent point.
I saw that disgusting pig, Bill O’Reilly come down on her about that. Anyone that has anything less than unending sympathy for that woman is less than human.
January 4th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
POSTED BY BILSSFULCONSERVATIVE
JANUARY 4TH, 2009 AT 1:30 PM
The Military Times released its annual poll of active-duty service members, and the results showed something virtually unprecedented: a one-year decline of 10 percentage points in the number of military personnel identifying themselves as Republicans. In the 2004 poll, the percentage of military respondents who characterized themselves as Republicans stood at 60%. By the end of 2005, that had dropped to 56%. And by the end of 2006, the percentage of military Republicans plummeted to 46%.
-LA Times, Jan 5, 2007
January 4th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
“Then how about this idea. The liberals are the ones who want to pay higher and higher taxes and national health care, therefore I say let them pay the higher taxes and let them fund national health care.”
Posted by Willy
Well, Willy, I’d rather have the 3-trillion dollars we are pissing away on this unnecessary war pay for national healthcare. At least we will get something for our buck. And I can’t remember the last time somebody died because of national healthcare.
Funny. You and Blissful are constantly cheerleading this war. I think it would be very patriotic if you both joined the military and requested serving in Iraq. If not you, then your kids.
January 4th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
What percentage of the people in the poll were independents, PFKAM?
January 4th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Well, I checked a few different sources.
Although there are obviously no official statistics, I sited that source since the poll was from the Military Times which I would guess is as unbiased as any other.
One source broke down an estimate of 25% dem,, 25%, rep, and 50% independent.
If true, do you see any significance to that?
January 4th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
I think that’s rather harsh, PFKAM. I’m not for ad hominem attacks on Miss Sheehan(I think she’s divorced now; not sure), but you seem to be suggesting that her suffering should excuse her if she does the same thing. What exactly does it mean to have “…anything less than unending sympathy for that woman [Sheehan]…”?
January 4th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
The significance is in confirming an actual majority are self described Democrats. If Republicans were 60%, a reduction of that percentage isn’t necessarily followed by an increase in the percentage of Democrats in the military. The poll doesn’t really say one way or another which way the percentage of Democratic military persons has gone. Given the way things have gone, I am inclined to think the percentage of Democrats has risen.
January 4th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
The way things have gone in Iraq and Afghanistan, that is.
January 4th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Yep. I’m giving her a pass.
If I lost my only son to an unnecessary war based on lies, I might me a little irrational (if you come to that conclusion).
January 4th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
I am not asking for military honors, or credit for bravery. But I do believe that families who have sacrificed in having a family member who has served have served their country.
Obviously you do not.
and yes, people HAVE died because of nationalized healthcare. There is an increase in infections, sentinel events, botched surgeries, unqualified staff, unsanitary conditions, medication errors in every case of nationalized healthcare that I have researched.
January 4th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
Well, I can’t promise to do the same if I happen to think something she says is unfair.
January 4th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
These are very informative.
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9272
January 4th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
POSTED BY BILSSFULCONSERVATIVE
JANUARY 4TH, 2009 AT 3:05 PM
It’s time for our daily slander already.
I said “Anyone that thinks a cause is worth dying for should be willing to die for it themselves.”
I just implied in my previous post that although Cindy Sheehan did not serve, she certainly sacrificed.
January 4th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
I can understand that. Remember, we’re not talking about endorsing here. We’re talking about sympathy.
Mark
January 4th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
PFKAM
Everyone who has a family member who has or is serving has sacrificed.
January 4th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
… and your point is?
Do you think the sacrifice you paid for your husband serving is the same as Ms. Sheehan’s?
January 4th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
Gotta run.
I have to get my wife a new oven mitt (see above thread).
I’ll check in later.
January 4th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
Oh, now we are comparing sacrifice. WOW. It must be pretty bad when you have to argue degrees of sacrifice to try and prove to yourself that you are right and someone else is wrong.
done with this discussion
January 4th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
“Nobody thinks that freedom is free”
But it is. It is all around us. Every movement, every word, they are all free. Even in a totalitarian prison, there are choices to be made, and freedom of thought… freedom is our birthright. We are endowed with these rights by a creator, according to the Constitution. Even if some of us don’t believe in a creator, surely we believe in unalienable rights, no?
January 4th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
Oh Blissful, We KNOW you’re always right – in your mind.
January 4th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
Oh TDRO, we KNOW that everyone here just wishes conservatives would disapear so you could have a free for all liberal love fest with noone to keep you in check.
January 4th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
wouldn’t that be fun and peaceful? *sigh*
January 4th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
TDRO,
You just said that we ought to fight since we agree why we are there. I was just using your reasoning and saying that you and your fellow libs should pay the higher taxes you seem to what and force everyone to pay.
I served in the US Army. Being an all volunteer force those who sign up are agreeing to serve and put their lives on the line for our country.
January 4th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
we KNOW that everyone here just wishes conservatives would disapear so you could have a free for all liberal love fest with noone to keep you in check.
Posted by bilssfulconservative
……………………………………….
Awfully pompous.
It assumes you REALLY are keeping anyone in check.
It assumes you are the only one interested in honest debate.
AND it assumes that the liberal side vilifies you more than you vilify it….it implies a certain martyrdom.
At least Alan has a site where you can insult his side for free…..you have to pay to post on Rush Limbaugh’s site.
January 4th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
Hannity’s site if free Old Lefty. Try it out.
January 4th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
Willy,
So my butt can actually GROW into this chair? That’s why I actually like the conservatives posting here….one stop shopping.
January 4th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
OLD,
believe it or not you actually usually post your thoughts without getting personal. wish I could say the same for all the libs here.
January 4th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
bilssfulconservative,
Thank you
January 4th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
But you’ve only misquoted me once so far and haven’t even stated one of your trademark half-truths yet.
January 4th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
Frankly, for the U.S. to pretend that we are neutral and honest brokers in the Middle East is laughable to the extreme. Our lop-sided support for nuclear Israel is appalling.
The Palestinians are treated like the town mule where everyone takes turns riding on their backs, Jew and Arab alike.
I say again..religion is the ultimate lie and cancer on humanity, followed closely by money-grubbing corporatists and unfettered captialism.
January 4th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
Since everyone seems to be posting polls today on what the military want, here is the latest. 6 in 10 are wary or pessimistic about obama being their commander in chief.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/01/03/military-poll-finds-troops-wary-obama/
January 4th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
Yes, and I remember another Fox News poll…
The ones that showed Mccain and Palin won every debate by 85%
lol
January 4th, 2009 at 7:27 pm
the poll was from the MILITARY TIMES, reported by FOX
http://www.militarytimes.com/
January 4th, 2009 at 7:33 pm
“”"and yes, people HAVE died because of nationalized healthcare. There is an increase in infections, sentinel events, botched surgeries, unqualified staff, unsanitary conditions, medication errors in every case of nationalized healthcare that I have researched.”"
Rubbish. Thousands of Americans dies very year from medical mistakes as well. As you know full well if you really ‘researched’ it.
It is a false argument to link medical error with national health. Maybe you can post this type of nonsense on Hannity’s site, but I’ve got my eye on you here Bils, and so do others…
;-)
In fact the truth is that in a “for-profit” health system, doctors are rushed to see more patients, mistakes are madepreventitive health plays second fiddle to expensive operations… medications are prescribed willy-nilly because of kickbacks from big pharma…the list goes on.
Where did you do research? Fox News?
Hilarious.
January 4th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
http://everydayecon.wordpress.com/2006/02/26/canadian-health-care-is-failing/
bad, i have a bazillion different sources and none of them are from Fox news. free doesn’t mean good, and just because you have national health insurance doesn’t mean you will be taken care of. It is a fallacy.
January 4th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/newsandevents/news/6123.aspx
http://www.cato.org/pubs/catosletter/catosletterv3n1.pdf
I doubt you will even bother reading these. I have a lot more, not only looking into Canada, but the UK and Australia. We studied different health models in nursing school too. Did you know there is a problem with counterfeit meds coming from China into Canada?
January 4th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
I am someone who supports this war. I don’t understand how it can be called illegal, when Congress gave President Bush authority to act.
I have read some talk about Mrs. Sheehan. I agree she has suffered greatly with the loss of her son. However, he volunteered to serve. In so doing, she had to know this was a possibility. I agree that personal attacks on Mrs. Sheehan are a terrible thing, but disagreeing with her positions is not necessarily a personal attack.
Something else I think is very disgusting is how the left used her. When she was speaking out against President Bush and war, she was a media darling, and the Democrats were all about supporting her. However, once the Democrats gained control and then didn’t follow through on their promise to pull the troops out, she spoke out agains them too. Then all of the sudden, she was marginalized by the media and there was no more glowing support by the left. They used her pain for their political gain, which is more disgusting than disagreeing with her positions. At least those who disagreed with her didn’t play with her emotions.
I think a person can support the troops and be against the President and the war. However, not long ago, I remember hearing some, predominantly on the left, who almost seemed to be actively hoping for the US to lose the war. Sorry, but hoping for the US to lose the war is NOT supporting the troops.
I’m not saying anyone on this board wants us to lose, and I’m not saying that those who want us to lose are representative of the left in general. I am saying that wanting us to lose is not compatible with supporting the troops.
People who have family members in the service absolutely should get credit for serving their country also, irregardless of when their loved one served. When the member is deployed, it is the spouse, children, parents, siblings who have to keep everything going. They are the ones who spend sleepless nights wondering if their loved one was in the lastest battle or part of the lastest suicide bombing. They are the ones who have to deal with the scars from battles past. They spouses are hit particularly hard, because they have to comfort and be strong for the children, plus run the household in its entirety, while sometimes, not having much of a support system for themselves.
My father-in-law has a 100% VA disability rating, and he has NOTHING physically wrong with him. His wife is still serving by helping him through nightmares and other issues. So, yes, irregardless of when the person served, the family gets credit for it.
Like I said, I support this war fully. I think, while there have been many mistakes, that the overall goal is good. I’ not a war monger, but I understand that some people will never keep their word, and therefore cannot be negotiated with.
And yes, I am active duty. Yes, I have been deployed to Iraq. Yes, I walk the walk and talk the talk.
January 4th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Here is a web site with a laundry list of problems in the UK. From heart patients being told they are too old for lifesaving TX (I don’t think 61 is old), to people pulling their own teeth, to drugs NOT being paid for by the government.
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/issues/healthcare/socialized.html
But don’t let the facts of the problems in the UK alone stop you from thinking you have all the answers.
January 4th, 2009 at 8:01 pm
BADMRFROSTY—You are correct about the corruption in our for-profit medical system. IMO, the corruption and underhanded deals in medicine is much more egregious than anything that may be happening involving President Bush and Vice President Chaney with the war.
I see all sorts of the commericials for medications, in which the side affects are much worse than what they are trying to cure or help.
I remember before my grandfather passed away, he was on a medicine to help his heart beat, but another medicine to keep it from working too hard and having a heart attack. Then, he was on a blood thinner to help his heart not work as hard, but a blood clotter to try to help if he was injured someway. And it just went on and on with one medicine for this, and another to counter it. And he only lived about couple of weeks.
It all came to money.
So yes BADMRFROSTY, I agree that the medical system is a very corrupt and unscrupulous bunch.
I just don’t see government taking it over as an effective solution. I don’t see government offering an alternative to it as an effective solution. Hawaii tried it and had to quit it because even people who could afford health care on their own went to the free state provided insurance, and it nearly broke the state. And the hospitals were overrun with all sorts of nonsense.
IMO, some of the scariest words a person can hear are, “I’m from the government, and I’m here to help.”
January 4th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
TRA,
what you are describing is known as polypharmacy. Unfortunately many medications, especially heart medications have side effects that require multiple meds. The rule of thumb in treating hypertension alone is 3 meds. I know that sounds like over-prescribing, but in some cases as I mentioned it is necessary for a positive outcomes.
Yes I agree that medications are used too much in this country (for some things), but they are sometimes a necessity too.
And yes I agree that there has been a conflict of interest in the past between docs and drug companies. There is some crack down occuring though, and hopefully that will help.
As I have stated in earlier posts, free doesn’t mean good. What you don’t hear proponents for socialized healthcare talk about is long waits, denial for tx based on age, death before tx could occur, unclean conditions, staff that is underqualified, botched surgeries, etc.
January 4th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
BILSSFULCONSERVATIVE—I hope I didn’t give the impression of supporting government ran health care. I don’t. I just think there is a lot of corruption and dirty dealings going on now also.
And too many times, it seems more about money than patient care.
But I don’t think letting the government run it is the way to go either. IMO, it would just be another fund for politicians to raid, just like social security.
January 4th, 2009 at 8:26 pm
“” What you don’t hear proponents for socialized healthcare talk about is long waits, denial for tx based on age, death before tx could occur, unclean conditions, staff that is underqualified, botched surgeries, etc”"
So none of these things happen in the US for-profit health care industry? No denial of servive? No refusal to cover certain procerdures? No botched surgeries?Never? yeah, OK there… ;-)
And those quotes, BILS, are from Brian Day BTW.
We are very failiar with Dr. Day up here, lol.
He opened a ‘grey market’ for-profit clinic in BC a few years back and has been raking in the dough by charging clients for MRI’s etc, that they could have got for free within a few weeks, but he fear-mongers, and is fighting tooth and nail to be allowed to expand his “business” here in our country. It is no surprise that there are some doctors that look enviously upon the millionaire lifestyle of their colleagues to the south. Including the Canadian Medical Association.
Fortunately, most doctors here prefer to work in a system where they are free to treat EVERY patient to their full abiblity, EVERY time. Something that is sadly lacking in the US.
TRA, You are a little mistaken on our health care system here in Canada. It is not ‘run by the gov’t’. This is another Faux News lie. We NEVER have to talk to any beaurocrat, HMO administrator or any other gov’t lacky. I’m telling you the truth, take it or leave it, it doesn’t really matter I guess…
What we have is:
We have national health INSURANCE that is subsidized by our gov’t so that everyone has it. And it’s not free! Those of us working, contribute a small amount as well…less than $50 or$ 100 a month, never more, and it’s paid often by employers.
Even with the occasional long wait in some area of the country for things like hip-replacements, (My dad’s was 5 weeks)and gastric by-passes, gall bladder…my wait was a week or so), it still beats the heck out of your system, hands down!
It’s funded the way schools are, fire dept’s. the RCMP, the post office, our military ETC ETC.
Like yours are too. you gonna say that ’socialized’ education and military doesn’t work down there? lol
Now the UK system IS gov’t run, by medical specialists
, not beaurocrats…and although, like Canada’s it has it’s share of problems…but it’s unterestin g to note that one problem – MRSA and general cleanliness standards only came into view when they switched over from cleaning their own hospitals –
- to a privatized “for-profit” cleaner!!
LOl
January 4th, 2009 at 9:05 pm
BAd,
I don’t know anyone who has been denied care. A doctor or nurse would lose their job and be taken in front of their state board of licensing if they denied anyone care. The Dr’s and nurses are not even allowed to ask if you HAVE insurance when you come in for TX. PERIOD, or you will lose your job.
If you can’t pay you just can’t pay. Most people here use ER’s as their primary on days offices are closed and on the weekends. My parents, family, friends have never had to wait in line for surgery. And if a hospital wasn’t clean it would be shut down, end of story.
And no, our socialized education system is broken. the more government involvement, the worse things get.
You can keep your socialized healthcare, it isn’t the answer.
And I don’t know why you think every snippet of information anyone who disagrees with you has is from Fox News?? There are many of us who disagree with you wholeheartedly and we are educated, intelligent, informed individuals who actually research the topics we are interested in.
I am LOL that you are LOL based on the horrendous stories I provided you with. As a healthcare professional I don’t find them funny in the least. Patients ripping out their own teeth, being denied surgery because of your age (61), etc. etc. etc. And as I said earlier, Australia and the UK are facing similar problems. Just a coincidence? I don’t think so.
January 4th, 2009 at 9:24 pm
BADMRFROSTY—Our military does pretty good. The military is one of the few things our government should provide for us and be completely involved in, IMO.
Our public schools are suspect at best, as seen by our poor ranking among other nations. I don’t think it wise to use publics schools as an example supporting government health care.
I don’t doubt your experiences in Canada’s health care system. I just don’t think that providing/subsidizing health care or retirement is part of government’s role.
Do I like seeing corporate greed and putting money ahead of people? Absolutely not. However, politicians have showed themselves to be no less greedy. And even more power hungry.
January 4th, 2009 at 9:29 pm
“”Most people here use ER’s as their primary on days offices are closed and on the weekends.”‘
And you wonder why the US spends more on health per capita than anyone, yet is consistantly ranked in the low 40’s against the rest of the rich world. This is a ridiculous use of an ER.
Your life expectancy and infant mortality rate is below Cuba, just ahead of Sri Lanka.
And as for this nonsense about “No-one is ever denied care in the US”, how can you make this bold-face un-true statement, and look at yourself in the mirror? Unbelievable. There is no way you have researched this. No way.
Even if you were just talking about life-threatening Emergency treatment, you’re STILL wrong. Even ER’s in the US can turn people down.
Don’t take MY word for it, take the AMSA’s
ww.amsa(dot)org/tnp/articles/article.cfx?id=167
Replace (dot) with a period, and add a w, lol
The American Medical Student’s Association’s website has selected 6 typical and heart-wrenching examples, including being denied service at an ER, patients dying while waiting to make payment, and a bill for the night ($3,900) being sent, and collected on, to the widow.
I just cannot believe the things you post BILS. I mesan everyone has said trhat at one time or another, you must be used to it. but this cr*p takes the cake it really does.
And no, not everything you say comes from faux news, but most of it. You also cut and paste creationist un-truths and biblical nonsense from Christiananswers.com.
And your link to anti-national health care quotes from the Fraser Institute is beyond the pale. These are the free-market nutjobs who want to privatize everything from education to TRA”S precious military!
As well, I might add, as legalizing drugs…how’s that work for ya?
And TRA, if you are saying that the US educational system, and social security would be better off run as a “for-profit” industry, I feel sorry for the next generation of children and pensioners, I really do.
There are some things that must NEVER be run for profit. Amongst them, education, infrastructue (hahaha Imagine that!) a military, and in everywhere but the US, health care for the citizens…
January 4th, 2009 at 10:03 pm
“I don’t know anyone who has been denied care.” yeah I dont know any astronauts so they dont exist. I’m filling in for PFKAM lol
January 4th, 2009 at 10:22 pm
I hate Hamas as much as any Israeli would and at the same the Palestinians in Gaza are living in a prison. They can’t work, They can’t leave, they are stuck there in the middle of the conflict. Israel embargoes Gaza because of Hamas rule. Hamas uses children as shields. Gaza’s border with Israel – closed. Gaza’s border with Egypt – closed. Arab nations do nothing, like make attempts to rescue them from Gaza, especially for those who want to leave. The people of Gaza are their “poster boys” so that the Saudis and whoever can play the victim in reference to Israel. In this war, all I see is gray.
January 4th, 2009 at 11:17 pm
BADMRFROSTY—If socialized education is so good, why do we rank so low? Our infrastructure is pretty much socialized also. And all we hear about it how bad our roads and bridges are. Another failure.
I don’t know that these should be “for profit” per se, but the government is doing an absolutely horrible job running and managing them.
January 5th, 2009 at 7:09 am
Also, while the military has its problems, at least it is a Constitutionally directed responsibility of the our government. Education and health care, while important, not Constitutionally mandated to be a governmental responsibility.
January 5th, 2009 at 7:28 am
Obama healthcare plan is part private and gov,t to a degree. A example now,your sister needs a new lung to live and has no insureance. Her job fires her for lost of work due to her illness. She has no where to turn too for healthcare.
January 5th, 2009 at 7:42 am
craig,
it is against the law to deny someone care based on ability to pay. why do you think so many hospitals have financial problems? because they have so many bills that go unpaid.
January 5th, 2009 at 8:04 am
Actually, our public schools in school districts with a high tax base rank very high.
As for the military, there has always been debate over whether or not the constitution calls for standing armies over militias.
Consider the words of Madison:
A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence agst. foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home. Among the Romans it was a standing maxim to excite a war, whenever a revolt was apprehended. Throughout all Europe, the armies kept up under the pretext of defending, have enslaved the people.
The idea is that governments use their armies to produce the enemies, then scare the people with cries that the barbarians are at the gates, and then claim that war is necessary to put down the barbarians. With all this, needless to say, comes increased governmental power over the people.
Hermann Goering said the same thing:
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”
Let’s not forget Dwight D Eisenhower:
“Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.”
January 5th, 2009 at 8:09 am
old,
which school districts specifically.
And surely you aren’t saying we need to get rid of our military? iran, Russia, china, al qaeda MOVE ON IN
January 5th, 2009 at 8:15 am
Some of my favorite Eisenhower quotes:
History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
I despise people who go to the gutter on either the right or the left and hurl rocks at those in the center
If you want total security, go to prison. There you’re fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking… is freedom
In the final choice a soldier’s pack is not so heavy as a prisoner’s chains.
Pessimism never won any battle
January 5th, 2009 at 8:24 am
BILSS, i work in the healthcare business as well and alot of folks can not afford insureance. Quality of life is more important to deny somesome who needs care. I wish THE GOP rethinks some of EISENHOWER wisdom when they blasted the gov of CA for quoating IKE. You are a nurse and i know quality of care and care peroid is more important to deny care. All people without insureance are not deadbeats and can not afford those free market prices,high prices for insureance at that.
January 5th, 2009 at 8:40 am
GOCARDS
I have said over and over ad nauseum but liberals want to jump on my back over most posts I make.
I am FOR affordable health INSURANCE. I am NOT in favore of socialized healthCARE. BIG difference.
January 5th, 2009 at 8:45 am
Just google US School rankings, newsweek
We have two schools, Mt. Lebanon and Upper St Clair, very, wealthy areas, both at various years in the top 25.
I’m not saying we should get rid of our military, just that a piecetime standing army was never part of the plan.
As for:
~ China, perhaps if we stopped borrowing from them, and were not so eager to support thier cheap labor, they would not be so strong.
~ Russia and Iran, again, results of the arms industry that Ike warned us about.
Iran specifically because our big corporations refused to accept their democracy, and install and support dictators there.
~ al Qaeda, I see NO evidence that it is a predominately military solution.
January 5th, 2009 at 8:49 am
bilssfulconservative,
Great Eisenhower quotes, It depends on who you believe is weak or strong and defending freedom, and what OUR role is in questioning the veracity of those in power.
Those on the left agree with ALL of those quotes, they just believe that this Bush Cheney adm. is weak, (not having the strength to stand up to the PNACers and actually fight terrorism, but pursued their pre 9/11 plans to invade Iraq)
And we feel they have been more of a threat to freedom than a defender.
I don’t feel that most of our entanglements have ANYTHING to do with our freedom.
You should understand, because the right didn’t think that the Balkans was necessary to defend our freedom.
January 5th, 2009 at 9:00 am
I see nothing wrong with Obama,s plan. The private sector and gov,t sector. To many people are not covered and it hits our pocket books.
January 5th, 2009 at 9:04 am
OLDLEFTY—A standing military during peace time is necessary. If our military had not already been in place, we could not have responded to the various conflicts and wars of our times in any sort of an efficient or quick time table.
You can’t just go and pick people off the street and expect them to be able to drive a tank, fly a fighter, fly a chopper, fly a UAV, do mid-air refueling, sail a carrier, etc, etc. Neither can you just grab people off the street, thrust them into a battlefield and expect them to be able to function without having already been exposed to those conditions through training.
Also, that is an interesting hypothesis you have about the military. If I understand your interpretation of Madison, your belief is that we use our military to create enemies, so we can then attack our enemies, that we created in the first place. And this is done in the name of controlling the people. Interesting.
Sounds like more of the blame America for the ills of the world to me.
January 5th, 2009 at 9:07 am
Bush used 9/11 to abused power instead of winning a war. I said it a 1,000 times,Bush fumble the ball by going into Iraq. His polices are closed minded. He has wrecked our country money wise.
January 5th, 2009 at 9:11 am
OLDLEFTY—IMO, our freedom has everything to do with our “enemies”. They are jealous of our freedom and open market system, and instead of trying to establish it themselves, they try to destroy us.
It is a sad common thread throughout man…instead of trying to raise oneself to a higher standard, try to lower others to oneself.
I can’t speak for all, but I think former President Clinton’s actions the Balkans were correct, and I supported them. I have to admit, I was skeptical of his motivation. Did he really believe it was correct or was it a good deflection from other legal problems he faced?
In either case though, I thought the move was the correct move. Getting rid of Milosevic was a good thing, just like getting rid of Saddam.
January 5th, 2009 at 9:13 am
Old
I am assuming since you said it was a wealthy school district, most of the kids who attend the schools come from affluent homes? In other words, they have resources available to them outside of school to ensure their children suceed.
I have always believed that your home environment plays a strong role in your education. So does the teacher that you have. If you can afford to pay teachers higher salaries, you will get better teachers. And I have stated before I don’t necessarily think you need a degree in teaching to be an effective teacher.
January 5th, 2009 at 9:19 am
Getting rid of milosevic was a good idea. Getting rid of sadam was a good idea.
January 5th, 2009 at 9:20 am
Tra,
Don’t confuse Bush/Cheney with America.
I blame some of our ills on leaders who have had their personal wealth tied to the foreign policies that THEY make, and a public who thinks it is unpatriotic to question them.
When you overthrow a democratically government and install a corporate friendly dictator, there will be blow back.
Remember,
It was Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Recipient
Major General Smedley D. Butler – USMC Retired, who said
“WAR is a racket. It always has been.
It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.
A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small “inside” group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.”
Also,
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”
Clarence Darrow
To me, the GREATEST danger to freedom is the belief that any questioning of the leaders is “Blaming America”"
Last quote,
“In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot.”
-Mark Twain Notebook, 1904
January 5th, 2009 at 9:24 am
We should have went into Iran instead of Iraq. Iran tranis terrorist. Gives weapons to them and spews hate towards our nation and the world. Our forces are to thin as of now. I have said it before. Carter,Reagan Bush,JR and Clinton have all failed reguarding Iran. I blame France for letting that wacko preacher go back to Iran and it,s been hell since. The no fly zone kept Iraq at bay. We gave Iraq weapons to fight Iraq and we fight Iraq and do nothing to Iran. USSR invades AFGAN we give rebels weapons and they attack us on 9/11.
January 5th, 2009 at 9:31 am
Old
A lot of people DO blame America
January 5th, 2009 at 9:56 am
We should have respected the elections in the fifties, and left Mossadegh alone.
From the mid 70s EVERY person I met from overseas, (Middle East, India, even Greece), ALL said that overthrowing Mossadegh is the open wound that causes them to feel that the American government does not respect democracy,in countries who have valuable natural resources.
Fast forward to Kissinger, and the Chilian election of Allende:
Kissinger said,
“I don’t see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves.”
And then they proped up a brutal dictator, just like the Shah and Sadaam.
People from other parts of the world have ALWAYS said to me, “Don’t lecture US on democracy!”
January 5th, 2009 at 10:08 am
coulda, shoulda, woulda.
Do you really think that anything we could have done differently would have alleviated the hatred felt by so many fundamentalists who simply hate anyone who isn’t what they are.
I don’t
January 5th, 2009 at 10:10 am
Perhaps and Iran is the wildcard and think we should declare war on them to a degree.
January 5th, 2009 at 10:13 am
A lot of people DO blame America
Posted by bilssfulconservative
……………………………………
Who gets to be America?
The president, the whole government, the people, or all?
If your kid steals a car, who do you blame?
The kid, or the cop who told you your kid stole a car?
The kid can still grow up to be a good kid, but not if you refuse to take responsibility, based on, “Not MY little Pookie!”
Be gone for awhile.
January 5th, 2009 at 10:15 am
If someone calls you an infidel and says all the infidels must die, who do you blame?
the ones calling you an infidel, or yourself?
January 5th, 2009 at 10:34 am
If someone calls you an infidel and says all the infidels must die, who do you blame?
the ones calling you an infidel, or yourself?
Posted by bilssfulconservative
………………………………….
What does that have to do with the people of a nation, holding their elected officials to account, as you expect a parent to do with their child?
If an intruder breaks into your home, it’s their fault….but if one parent refused to repair a broken door, and was selling the intruder drugs, THAT parent is also guilty of neglecting the family’s saftey.
January 5th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
Old,
What it has to do with, is the fact that we were attacked on 9/11 by persons with the feelings I mentioned above. yet, you still have a lot of people blaming US for what they did.
January 5th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Iraq did not attack us.
January 5th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
bilssfulconservative,
My point is that when our government acts in ways that are against the interests of our saftey and values, we are not blaming America, when we blame bad policy.
It seems that the right blames, Carter for Iran.
I blame Eisenhower’s overthrow of Mossadegh for Iran.
Both sides blame a president’s policies….
You say I blame America when I blame ONE president, but you don’t think you blame America when you blame another president?
January 5th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
OLDLEFTY—I see what you are saying about blaming a President vice blaming a nation. But I don’t think the two can be separated.
While you, IMO, accurately say that a the President makes or leads policy, his policy, as President, becomes that of US. To the world, most do not see it as a President Bush policy, but a US policy.
I have even seen others on here, who say it is US policy toward the Middle East and other nations that has caused much of the anger toward us. While that policy is set by the President and Congress, it shows up as US policy.
Also, our President is freely and democratically elected, so he is the person we as a nation have chosen to represent us. We have agreed to follow the direction and the policies a given President sets. I’m pretty sure you didn’t vote for President Bush, but as a citizen of the US, he is your President. Just like I didn’t vote for President Elect Obama, but in 15 days, he will be my President also.
Even if a time comes that I disagree with his policy in some world event, in the end, his policy will be US policy. And if I critize that policy, I would be essentially critizing US policy. Just like critizing President Bush’s policy is critizing US policy.
I don’t thing there is anything wrong with critizing US policy, but I think saying that other countries are justified to attack us based on our policy is wrong.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
Old,
I find it sad when people on both sides act as if there is nothing bad coming out of their party.
There are things that Bush has done I do not agree with, the latest being the stimulus packages. That does not mean, however, that I go around trashing him and I certainly would never go to a foreign country and talk trash about my own.
I know that is getting off the subject a bit, but it has happened a lot the past 8 years.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
bilssfulconservative,
But you will trash Clinton.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
How have I trashed clinton? Other than stating things that happened?
January 5th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
I have not resorted to calling him names, like many liberals on this site have done to Bush, nor have I insulted his intelligence as many have done to Bush on this site.
I have never talked trash about his child, though many here did that to Sarah Palin. maybe you should point this out to your liberal counterparts?
You can disagree with a politician, discuss events, without trashing them.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
Tra,
Saying that other countries are JUSTIFIED in attacking us based on our policy is not the same as saying that if you pursue THIS or THAT policy, people will WANT to attack us.
Add to that, the fact that as the case of Afganistan, you armed every zealot and malcontent in the region with stinger missiles, and trained them to bring down a super power, then left.
Intel people warned….’What are you going to do when they don’t like our having bases in THEIR countries, and turn on us as they did the USSR?
They were ignored.
They are ALWAYS ignored, and the answer is ALWAYS, ‘no one could have een THIS comming’.
Trouble is, those who see it are ALWAYS renounced and rejected.
January 5th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
have not resorted to calling him names, like many liberals on this site have done to Bush, nor have I insulted his intelligence as many have done to Bush on this site.
I have never talked trash about his child, though many here did that to Sarah Palin. maybe you should point this out to your liberal counterparts?
…………………………..
Then you are one of the few.
As I’ve said WHOLE industries were built on Clinton hatred.
McCain and his Chelsea jokes, Limbaugh and the Whitehouse dog joke, Foster, etc.
I have not called Bush names, I just think he and the neo cons felt that they were here to serve a small, like minded elite, and not We The People.
I think the left are still pikers when it comes to trash talking.
I’m tired of bringing this up, but we did not come up with, Language: a Key Mechanism of Control, instructing the party to ALWAYS refer to the opposition as “immoral, unpatriotic, radical, traitor, and of course, ALWAYS refer to them by the incorrect name, “Democrat party”.
January 5th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
NO, we are called us neocons, bible thumpers, right wing whackos, chickenhawks, the extremem religious right, homophobes, racists, bigots, zealots, war mongers, misogynist people.
And I still didn’t see you condemn your liberal counterparts who do what you get angry with conservatives for doing??
Yoy don’t think there is hatred for Bush? Come on.
January 5th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
BILSS,that goes both ways. UNAMERICANS,the liberal media,socialist,green freaks,big spenders and tax rasiers,baby killers and left wing wacks. Don,t expect a rose garden from the left. The past 8 years the name calling has been tough. Your views warrent name calling. This is not a pro-Bush site. Hannity and Rush call folks like myself and others on this site names everyday. Reality.
January 5th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
bilssfulconservative,
You ARE called those names, but I think that Falwell started it in the 70s,with the Moral Majority, to BE divisive, and to create an us against them mentality, and then Gingrich ran with it in the 90s.
People who are older will say that both sides disagreed, but it wasn’t until then that they called each bad Americans and immoral.
It’s not my place to condemn my liberal counterparts, anymore than it’s your place to condemn your conservative counterparts.
There’s ALWAYS going to be hatred for a president who people feel caused great damage.
There was enough hatred for Clinton, and he went out with a 65% approval rating.
January 5th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
My views warrant name calling? Wow. You voted for a man who says change is in the air, but you are holding onto politics as usual?
Interesting.
I guess it was just talk?
January 5th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
Old
You may not feel like it is your job to correct your liberal counterparts, but at the same time it seems one sided for you to condemn republicans for one thing all the while your side is just as guilty.
And you continually pick pastors who do NOT represent everyone who is a conservative to try and make the republican party seem like a bunch of religous zealots. That is divisive.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
I’m not calling you names, I don’t complain about being called names, you don’t condemn YOUR fellow conservatives, and these pastors are no different then Wright, Sharpton, and Jackson….It’s the MSM who treats them ALL like they are mainstream.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
No different from wright, who liberals staunchly have defended time and time again. Many of those liberals who defended wright condemn robertson and falwell.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
You asked me this ? Name me some people from the right that have messed up? Ideals,etc,etc. Perhaps you agree with everyone of them despite how wrong they are.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
And many conservatives who defend Falwell and Robertson condemn Wright, and so it goes on and on and on…….
January 5th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
Name me some right wing buffoons BILLS.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
And many libs who condemn Falwell, may he rest in peace, and Robertson, defend Wright, Ayers, Rezco, etc..
“And so it goes on and on and on…”
January 5th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Susan Collins, Arnold the Governator, Ted Stevens, Larry Craig, George Voinovich. How is that Cards? I know you weren’t asking me but I just jumped in. Sorry.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
Who are your left wing buffoons?
January 5th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
Stevens,Craig,You will say Blago and Jefferson.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
Whew. Press conference city at the capital.
Now, you want me to name some people on the right who have messed up? larry craig, ted stevens, strom thurmond, dan crane
Now I am waiting on your list of libs?
January 5th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
More WILLY,but that,s a start.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
Stevens and Craig would not fit into the lest wing catagory Cards.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
Left wing buffoons Cards???
January 5th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
“”And many libs who condemn Falwell, may he rest in peace,”"
Hoho, somehow I doubt that very much…
Many of these types of hostile and angry big ‘C’ christians are lucky that there IS no heaven..
January 5th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
Jefferson with that money in the freezer. I can,t defend him. Give me the money.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
That was uncalled for, unclassy, rude and downright wrong for you to say bad.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
ONe? you can only think of one?
January 5th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
BILSS,WILLY NAME SOME BAD FROM THE RIGHT. WHAT ABOUT YOU.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
I posted a list. it either didn’t post to the blog or I posted it to the wrong blog.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
Aren’t you reading my posts, Cards?
Posts, Cards. Hey, I mada a funny!!! Posts, Cards!!!Ha, ha, hee.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
no, it posted. look above
January 5th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
You think that was rude do you bliss – perhaps then I should post some of the things that that old B*astard has said over the years, shall I…I almost wish there was a hell, so he and his like could rot in it…
January 5th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
OLDLEFTY—You said, “Saying that other countries are JUSTIFIED in attacking us based on our policy is not the same as saying that if you pursue THIS or THAT policy, people will WANT to attack us.”
I suspect that many people simply use our policies as convenient excuses to do what they want to do anyway. Similar to the Palestinians. They want to destroy Israel, and they use whatever excuse they can find to try to justify it.
Israel could have continued to do nothing and just take the rocket fire. Hamas would have continued to fire them.
We could have just sat back and did nothing, but we would still be being attacked today. Look at the 90’s when we had no to limited military response to the attacks against us.
Bottom line is that some groups will want and try to attack us regardless of what we do. If we retaliate and defend ourselves, then we are being disproportinate and unfair and picking on people weaker than us, and it brings on further attacks. If we do nothing or try to talk, then we are perceived as weak, and it brings on further attacks.
January 5th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
Tra,
Everybody says that about us too.
Every time you decide that you have the right to overthrow a leader, especially one who the people elected, they feel that as long as they have natural resources that you want, you will call them some name and justify an attack on them.
From Zelaya in Nicaragua, Arbenz in Guatamala, Allende in Chili, Mossadegh in Iran….Everytime you tell people you don’t care about the will of THEIR people, they you call us the terrorists.
There is a reason why St. Augustine wrote:
“Because I do it with one small ship, I am called a terrorist. You do it with a whole fleet and are called an emperor.”
~A pirate, from St. Augustine’s “City of God
Ask yourself why our corporations LOVE China but we hate Cuba.
Ask yourself why we always supported and armed the dictatorship of Pakistan, over the democracy of India.
As for the Gaza, interesting that Israeli author, Amos Oz, said,
“Both parties, in two different ways, are victims of Christian Europe: the Arabs through colonialism, imperialism, oppression and exploitation, while the Jews have been the victims of discrimination, pogroms, expulsions and, ultimately, mass murder.”
Let’s not forget, The greatest atrocity committed against the Jewish people was NOT a the hands of the Arabs.
January 5th, 2009 at 8:55 pm
OLDLEFTY—Interesting how Nicaragua, Guatemala, and Chili haven’t attacked us. Only the Arabs/Muslims/Islams.
I assume from your quote from St. Augstine’s City of God, that you are saying the US is doing the same thing as terrorists, but because we have more military might and overall resources, we call ourselves right and terrorists wrong. Am I interpretting that correctly?
If that is the case, why does Iraq have something like a $40 Billion surplus? Why isn’t every drop of Iraqi oil going directly to the US oil companies for FREE?
Yes, we need the resources of these countries. Partly because we are too dependent on oil for energy. Partly because we aren’t allowed to use our own oil resources here in the US without companies having to jump through hoops and frivolous legal issues for 10+ years just to increase refinery capacity.
IMO, corporations love China for two reasons. One, they have the industrial and manufacturing capability that Cuba has not developed. Second, China is half the planet away, so while still Communist, it isn’t sitting 90 miles off our coast. And while I’m sure China has missiles with Nukes on them with the US’ name on them, again, they are half way around the Earth from us. Cuba allowed Russia to put them within 90 miles of us.
As far as the quote from Amos Oz…yes both sides have been vicitimized by people claiming to be Christians. But like many say we should not judge Arabs/Muslims by the actions of their few radicals, neither should Christians be judged by their few radicals, or even worse, people who claim to be Christians but truly aren’t.
When looking at singular events, what Hitler did during the Holocaust is indeed the worst thing to EVER happen to the Jews. And while Hitler may have tried to claim his actions where “Christian”, I can assure you there nothing in the Christian faith that says “erradicate the Jews”. I know we aren’t supposed to judge, but based on their fruits, Hitler, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Jeff Warrens were not Christians.
Also I suspect if we had the ability and willingness to look at History as whole, the Arabs have done far more overall harm and damage to the Jews than even Hitler did.
January 6th, 2009 at 8:11 am
Old Lefty, are you saying that Saddam Hussein was freely elected? I remember him bragging about winning 100 percent of the vote. HA. No one ever wins all the votes in a free election.
January 6th, 2009 at 8:31 am
Tra,
There REALLY is no reason to assume that EVERYONE who dislikes the policies of the corporatocracy, like Nicaragua, Guatemala, and Chili want to attack us. All now have elected more left leaning governments.
It’s interesting that the ones who DO want to attack us now, are those whose dictators WE support, AND who we have armed and trained to bring down a superpower.
From the fifties WE supported the Muslim Brotherhood, because Islamic fundamentalism was anti communist.
“Why isn’t every drop of Iraqi oil going directly to the US oil companies for FREE?”
You NEVER get away with that.
The money usually gets dispersed between a small clique of leaders and the corporations.
Remember, they tried getting Chalabi, then Ayad Allawi in, and the Iraqis went nuts, we called it insurgency. Little by little they had to give up much of what they thought they would get when Rumsfeld said it would take “no more than 6 months.”.
“Yes, we need the resources of these countries. Partly because we are too dependent on oil for energy. Partly because we aren’t allowed to use our own oil resources here in the US without companies having to jump through hoops and frivolous legal issues for 10+ years just to increase refinery capacity.
But oil is only ONE resource: In South America, it was United Fruit, IT&T, the copper mines, water and the canal.
What do you do in ten years when THAT oil is gone?
It’s not about the Iraqi surplus now, it’s about transferring OUR treasury to private contractors.
The Iraqi resources will be regulated more by the World Bank and the IMF.
As for Cuba; many with more first hand knowledge than me say Castro was radicalized after Batista’s coup scraped the elections.
Would Castro even have been there if we had dealt fairly with Cuba to begin with?
As for China v Cuba; With China’s military might , and human rights record, why should be in debt to them, promote them and use THEIR manufacturing base at all?
Look at history as a whole; not ONE group has ANY right to claim ANY moral high ground.
Just as a parent can REALLY only worry about their OWN kids, (as the kids say, “but so and so did worse…” well I can only worry about MY kids and MY country…..The greatest problem I have is that I believe that the very powerful often operate in ways that violate American values, the American people would not accept it , so they must be lied to.
We all know, as Lord Acton said, “Power tends to corrupt and absolute power
corrupts absolutely.”, yet we tend to be willing to give almost absolute power, with little oversight, and a media that covers celebrity and trivia 24/7, then get angry when anyone points to the very corruption we were warned about, and the rest of the world talks about.
I fear that many Americans say, “Just tell me what I want to hear, What I don’t know, won’t hurt me.”
January 6th, 2009 at 9:26 am
Old Lefty, are you saying that Saddam Hussein was freely elected?
Posted by Willy
………………………………………..
Absolutely not!
But in 1958, we supported the coup that overthrew Abd al-Karim Qasim, and resulted in Sadaam, who we liked better.
January 6th, 2009 at 9:30 am
OLDLEFTY—I agree on the China issue. I personally wish we would deal with very little if at all.
I also agree that the media, and most Americans, are way too caught up in celebrity than more pressing issues. It is a shame when many parents can know more about a given celebrity and that celebrities friends and romances than they can their own children.
It’s not just about the amount of oil. It is more about refining capacity. Refineries today run about 95% capacity. No new refineries have been built in 30+ years. We can have all the oil in the world sent straight to us, but without refineries to process it, it does no good. And everytime a proposal is made to build a refinery, the “greens” file lawsuit, after lawsuit, after lawsuit with other intent than to stop it.
Also, we have more than 10 years worth of oil in the US, given the Continental Shelf, ANWR, and a large deposit being explored in the northern plains. And as oil recovery technology continues to develop, it will provide access to more oil previously unreachable.
Many of the incidents you site of America’s “misdeeds” have been spread out over various administrations. So, while I commend you for not cherry picking only conservative Presidents as being the problem, it is obvious you are someone who believes most, if not all of the world’s ills belong on our nation’s shoulders. It’s ok for you to think that, just disappointing.
I fully understand our nation is not perfect, because it is ran by imperfect people. Both our elected officials and we the people. And, yes, there is much greed and coruption in our system, especially in the last 20 or 30 years. But I think it is a bit ridiculous to blame our nation for people who would want to see us fall anyway.
It’s just like in sports. Many people were initially in love with the New England Patriots, because they were the upstart and had a franchise history of being the NFL doormat. Now they are perennially considered favorites for the Super Bowl. Many are now tired of them, simply because they have been so successful for so long. Sure, the Patriots have had some brushes with rules violations, but overall they run a pretty clean operation. So, it is simple comes down to jealousy that drives people to dislike them. People who loved them just 6 or 7 years ago. Instead of others working and trying to raise themselves, they want the Patriots to fall.
I still say it is the same the U.S. We have been successful for so long that others are just tired of us, and instead of being willing to do what is necessary to raise themselves, they want to bring the U.S. down.
But instead of realizing that, too many want to blame the U.S. for its success. It is just disappointing.
January 6th, 2009 at 10:18 am
Tra,
Here’s where I disagree with you:
In the 35 years that I have worked with and known people from other countries, and in the 27 years I have been married to a man from India,(non practicing Hindu), I feel that very few people hate America, and in fact most people love and admire America, even Muslims from the Middle East and Pakistan.
They just think that as a people, of a nation that effects so much of the world, many of us do not want to oversee what our government does in our name.
No one REALLY blames our nation for the actions of those who want to see us fall, (those people are fewer than they would have you believe), but we want our nation to do the right thing, and treat people fairly, and not cause people to feel that, ‘my son was killed by the Shah, now I hate you because you kept the tyrant in power’ Too many Americans would respond by saying, Of course, that would be wrong, but we would never do that.
I think it’s too easy and comforting to assume that, ”too many want to blame the U.S. for its success.” without our taking more responsibility for the actions of our officials.
Too me the analogy is more like:
We are raising a baby and often disagree which way is best way, but definitely agree both sides love the baby and want the best for her.
I think the baby shows first emotional, then physical signs that the babysitter is abusing the baby.
You like the babysitter, and accuse me of blaming the baby for crying or having marks on her arms.
And so it is not blaming the nation, it IS blaming the caretakers, the hired help if you will, for not acting in the interests of the values we hold dear, and lying to us, (and sometimes to themselves).
As for the NE Pats, I thought the problem was that it’s boring for one team to always win.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
Actually, it is not America we dislike, after all, a great many people want to go there: its AMERICANS we can’t stand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
January 6th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
It is amazing that the same people who expect the world to share collective guilt about their treatment by Nazi Germany, now believe that the world,collectively, should share their desire to abuse their neighbors in the same evil manner.
Mankind has a long way to go.
January 6th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
It is amazing that the same people who expect the world to share collective guilt about their treatment by Nazi Germany
Nazi Germany was hardly unique in their Antisemitism
now believe that the world,collectively, should share their desire to abuse their neighbors in the same evil manner.
How does Israel’s neighbors treat their own Jewish populations?
The middle east is a big mess, thanks mostly to Europe and the U.S. Those of us from those countries don’t necessarily need to feel ‘guilty’, but we should probably be part of the solution. (I don’t know about Canada’s role in the setup of all those fake countries in the middle east, but I guess Canadians inherit Great Britian’s culpablity)
January 6th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
Wish I felt the same way. I’ve done quite a bit of international travel and I’ve noticed a significant change in receptiveness over the past 10 years.
… then again, maybe it’s just me that they hate.
January 6th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
PFKAM,
The Bush years were the exception.
I’m talking about my experience over 35 years.
Remember the world’s reaction when JFK was killed….
then go back just ten years even when they loved Clinton.
Then look at Obama. The world wants America to be the shining city on the hill again, they just want us to act like responsible citizens.
January 6th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
Well, this is frustating. I had a post done, hit submit, and poof it was gone.
Anyway, OLDLEFTY—I see your point about the actions of our officials. I believe too often in national affairs, they think of themselves over us. However, I think for the most part, our officials do their best to achieve what is best for us in international affairs, some of the free trade agreements not withstanding. And if what is best for us, is not best for another country, tough. Our officials are to do what is best of us. I would be pretty upset if our officials settled for second best so another country could have best.
I don’t however, want our officials doing something illegal. I think it should be best within the law.
I see similarities between how former President Clinton responded to attacks on us, and how the world is demanding Israel to respond. Now that Israel is really sticking it to its enemy, the world is condemning them, just like the world condemns us for sticking it to our enemies.
Since our nation was so popular and looked up to under former President Clinton, why did so many revel and cheer at the 11 Sep 01 attacks on us? President Bush had been office barely 8 mos. Surely you don’t think that was enough time to tick off the world so much that they cheered the attacks on us do you?
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the international part of this.
January 6th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Saying you like America, but not Americans is double-speak. Americans make up America.
January 6th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
TRA,
I just read your post. Your point about the world cheering when we were attacked the first time was a good one. We have been hated by many for a long time, and they will continue hating us no matter who is in office
January 6th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
“And if what is best for us, is not best for another country, tough. Our officials are to do what is best of us. I would be pretty upset if our officials settled for second best so another country could have best.”
………………………………………
That’s not what I said. I said they often do what is best for an internation elite class of super rich Saudis, Americans, French, Africans…..the billionaires of the world, at the expense of what is best for us.
In other words, Bush has more in common with Prince Bandar, who his mom calls ‘Bandar Bush, then with us.
Don’t forget, Halliburton moved to Dubai.
*************************
“Since our nation was so popular and looked up to under former President Clinton, why did so many revel and cheer at the 11 Sep 01 attacks on us? President Bush had been office barely 8 mos.”
………………………………………
So many DID NOT revel and cheer at the 11 Sep 01 attacks on us?
We saw one clip of a few poor people in the Palistinian territories.
Do you remember the candlelight vigils in Tehran? It was on the TV.
January 6th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
OLDLEFTY—I don’t remember seeing any middle east country showing support to us. I won’t say it didn’t happen, but I didn’t see it.
As above, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I just don’t see President Bush as having thrown us under the bus. I guess I am too willing to give people in general the benefit of the doubt. This includes former President Clinton and will include President-elect Obama.
January 6th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
Tra,
“I don’t remember seeing any middle east country showing support to us. I won’t say it didn’t happen, but I didn’t see it.”
……………………..
Just google it.
I remember both scenes very clearly, the Palistinian woman, (chubby), with her hands folded upwards as though in prayer, AND the Iranians (mostly young),in the streets holding the candlelight vigil.
From Cnn:
Amanpour: Bin Laden still hugely significant
POSTED: 12:53 p.m. EDT, September 6, 2006
Christiane AMANPOUR: Yes, they have empathy and, if you recall, after 9/11 most of the world was on America’s side, sympathetic and in solidarity. People even held candlelight vigils in Tehran, Iran.
Then Tom Friedman on pbs:
MARGARET WARNER: So what is their attitude about these clerics, these conservative clerics that are still running the show in so many ways?
THOMAS FRIEDMAN: Many of them – and you saw this in – there was a little mini-Tiananmen Square there in July 1999, which we really didn’t follow here, where there was a student uprising. And it really said what they think of this clerical regime, which is that these are people who have had enough democracy now, Margaret, to know they want more of it. And they’ve had enough theocracy now to know they want less of it.
Remember that Iran was allied with the Northren Alliance viewing the Taliban as Sunni enemies.
Then Bush called them evil, put troops on BOTH their borders and they elected Ahmadinijad, over the moderate
Rafsanjani.
I’m sorry, I’m more sceptical of those to whom we give such awesome power especially those whose personal fortunes are closely tied to the foreign policy they get to make.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”
~Clarence Darrow
January 6th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
“” We have been successful for so long that others are just tired of us,”"
They’re not tired of you, they are weary of broken promises by subsequent administrations.
Other nations have come much further in fufulling their goal for foreign aid, although most fall short as well.
I say fine, if the US doesn’t want to come through, stop making the promises…
January 6th, 2009 at 8:10 pm