Outcry By UN, Red Cross And Vatican
International aid groups are accusing Israel of neglecting needy Palestinians, some of whom are trapped among rotting corpses.
The United Nations declared a suspension of its aid operations after one of its drivers was killed and two others were wounded despite driving vehicles bearing United Nations flags and coordinating their movements with the Israeli military.
The death toll in Gaza is at 750, with women and Children accounting for 40% of the dead. The UN says it’s being told by Gaza authorities that among the 758 fatalities are 257 children and 56 women. Among the injured are 3100, 1080 of which are children, and 15% of which are women.
The International Committee of the Red Cross reported finding what it called shocking scenes on Wednesday, including four emaciated children next to the bodies of their dead mothers. In a rare and sharply critical statement, it said it believed that “the Israeli military failed to meet its obligation under international humanitarian law to care for and evacuate the wounded.”
Cardinal Ranato Martino, the head of the Council for Justice and Peace at the Vatican says Gaza “is looking more and more like a concentration camp.”
While noting that Hamas rockets into Israel were “certainly not sugared almonds” he called the situation in Gaza “horrific” and said conditions there went “against human dignity.”
Yes, Israel has a right to defend their self against rockets being propelled into their land – but this has gone too far!
January 8th, 2009 at 8:53 pm
Even if you are of the viewpoint that Israel is 100% in the right taking the actions they have taken. I belive that you would have to find this very troubling and sad. Sometimes I guess humanity just have to face the reminders that our basic nature has not changed that much since the stone age.
January 8th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
Didn’t it go too far long ago when hamas and hezbollah sent homicide bombers into israel killing innocent women and children??
This is sad, noone should have to bury their child. But I wonder where all the outrage was BEFORE israel decided to defend themselves, and why everyone always insists THEY have to concede.
Silent.
January 8th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
Placefield
I couldn’t agree more.
January 8th, 2009 at 9:10 pm
This is one of those posts where debate should not even enter ones thoughts. Blissful, I agree with some of the things you post but sometimes you have to lay down the sword. It’s okay to be sickened by this and be overwhelmed with heartbreaking compassion – any human being should be. It has nothing to do with conservative or liberal, Israeli or Palestinian – it has to do with humankind. When children are suffering we ALL should feel the pain.
January 8th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Alan: You say you are Jewish: whether you practice your religion, I don’t know. God says repeatedly in the Bible: “I will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel”. The fact is that Hamas is a terrorist group who has been barraging Israel for years with bombs; they are aligned with Iran and they call for the total destruction of Israel—your people.
Israel has the right and obligation to defend it’s people. Hamas uses the Palestinians as shields and are responsible for killing their own people. Please stop comdemning Israel. No one wants to see the Palestinians hurt/killed. But, if they support Hamas and the destruction of Israel they are responsible for their own misery and their own deaths. They teach their children to hate the Jewish people. If the Palestinians loved their children more than they hate Israel, they would not be suffering. Any intelligent person would not believe the U.N. The Jews are God’s Chose People. Remember what God says: “I will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel”. You need to take what God says seriously.
Deborah
January 8th, 2009 at 9:56 pm
Rise,
that is how the west thinks, and we are fortunate for that. the sad part is, many of the children in this picture might have been taught to blow themselves up. for some reason that I can’t understand, many in the middle east, especially those assocaited with hamas, hezbollah, and al qaeda do NOT value human life. period.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
Alan Colmes is a good ‘jewish’ man who knows when a line is being crossed and is Not persuaded by noise and false emotion that can cause the deaths of many innocent women and children.
I’m glad the regime in power in Isreal today doesn’t represent the views of All jews people; I’m not saying I did’nt know that but it is asuring to see one out in the open.
Alan Colmes you are respected in my book.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:33 pm
The great, excellent radio windbag (you know who that is) explained this on the radio this morning.
The Arabs are only killing themselves and their children to make Israel look bad.
Many of the hornblower’s listeners, no doubt, believed this. I’m certain “Deborah Wallace” ate it up.
Religion is a pox on humanity. It’s a disease.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:34 pm
Hamas must stop shooting rockets from kindergarten, hospital, and school, and making BS statements that Israel is killing civilians.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:57 am
Funny I don’t seem to remember Jews shooting 6,000 rockets out of Auschwitz.
And it’s even funnier hearing the Vatican mention concentration camps…since they didn’t have a word to say when 6 million Jews were tortured to death.
The Jewish claim on Palestine is partly based on God’s (alleged) promise but mostly
based on the fact that Jews have lived in the country for thousands of years.
The Palestinians have been the majority in specific locations (Gaza, Hebron, West Bank)
But never have the Palestinians laid claim to the large swaths of land Jews bought legally hundreds of years ago, not to mention cultivate the land impossibly against the worst of conditions.
The facts against Jews are skewed at best. Jews have always longed for a 2 state solution.
All Palestinian claims to Israel are perverted with fictious accounts of imperialism, inflated population numbers in Jordan, and claims to land far from Jewish settlements.
Furthermore, Jews are fighting for their very lives. It doesn’t matter that Palestinian deaths measure in the hundreds and Jews few. An open highway of weaponary into Israel begs for a catastrophe.
1 bomb. 1 nuclear device. 1 suitcase or missile is all it takes to decimate the entire Jewish population in Israel.
The Palestinians have never shown an ability to compromise. To be honest. To ensure the best agreements for their people.
The Palestinians have never shown themselves to want anything more than to kill every Jew.
No not just Hamas. Hamas was voted in overwhelmingly by Palestinians. Palestinians daily show their children despicable Jewish hate TV. Sesame Street in Palestine shows like a Hitler youth propaganda peice.
Palestinians overwhelmingly supported Hitler.
Palestinians overwhelmingly support every opportunity to kill Jews.
Yes war is horrible. War is graphic. I’ve never known a war where children don’t grasp their dead mothers. I’ve never known a war where corpses don’t surround us.
But if Israel is going to drag Palestinians into a forceful peace kicking and screaming, I am going to support them.
I’m sorry but Israel is 110% right in what they’re doing. This war is bigger than 6,000 missiles this war is for the very survival of a nation and people who have endured every atrocity mankind can visit on a people.
If Palestine wants peace, prosperity, school for their children, healthcare, and happiness…..stop killing Jews.
I promise you Israel will always support a healthy, peaceful, Palestine.
Stop killing Jews.
January 9th, 2009 at 1:01 am
Oh and for the record let’s stop pretending America gets fed a big daily spoonful of Israel propaganda.
There is so much pro-Palestine influence in our colleges, in our communities and intellectual circles (not to mention the NY Times) that I’m amazed how one sided the issue is and how often it is ignored in favor of opinion and bluster.
January 9th, 2009 at 1:08 am
and one more point. Hamas has an interesting ideology:
a dead jew is great, but a dead palestinian is even better. Those in the media who have similar views to yours are proof enough of that.
January 9th, 2009 at 1:13 am
I’ve seen/heard a lot of right-wing views before but my jaw still drops when I read some of the right-wing posters here and realize they are not joking.
Firstly, Hamas is indeed a ‘terrorist’ group and the tactics it employs with rockets/bombings against everyday Israeli’s are despicable and should be condemned.
But the notion that all the civilian casualties in Gaza are 100% on the hands of Hamas is ridiculous. If you conduct airstrikes in a densely populated area, even if you ‘drop leaflets’ in advance, civilian deaths (including innocent children) are inevitable but entirely avoidable by not resorting to such a response in the first place.
Repeat after me “There is no such thing as a guilty child!”. Yes, I understand many of them hate Jews and are taught to hate Jews but they are still not legitimate targets, even if deliberately used as shields by members of Hamas.
Why do you think those in ‘intellectual circles’ i.e “smart people” are ‘pro-Palestinian’? Do you ever stop and think that maybe you are missing something in the debate or have got desensitized to the concept of children and innocent people being killed?
Finally, please note, not only are Palestinians willing to negotiate, even Hamas has spoken of being willing to negotiate. The problem is that the only people in both Palestinians as a whole and Hamas whom would seek peace are ‘moderates’ but their voices tend to get snuffed out when Israel takes action like the blockade and this pointless military action.
January 9th, 2009 at 1:45 am
There are other intellectual circles beside pro-Palestinian ones.
The argument is complex sure, but would you denounce fighting WW2 because German children were murdered? Would you halt your attacks on the vile and evil because the innocent suffer in the midst?
War is hell and horrible and necessary.
No one targets children. Except the terrorists who hide among them. Why don’t the Palestinians fight?
Why not fight Hamas? Why not resist? They don’t. They cheer. They promote.
Tibetans die for freedom. Darfur resists. East Europe suffers for what is right. Africans struggle for peace. Americans protest evil.
Palestine does not negotiate.
They say they negotiate when it suits them. Arafat got everything he asked for in the Peace accords.
Everyone said “Take the deal” they got everything they wanted.
Arafat declined. Because Palestinians only want one thing. Dead Jews.
I’m sure there are good Palestinians. Thousands maybe.
But unless they begin to stand up to tyranny as so many do and have throughout human history, Israel will have to defend itself.
All Israel wants is peace.
Peace for Palestine. Peace for Jews. Peace for the world.
This is not a pointless military action.
(Essential unbiased reading: Idiot’s guide to the middle east conflict-assorted authors; The case for Israel by Alan Dershowitz)
January 9th, 2009 at 2:01 am
Noel, Guess what I agree with you about Arafat but he alone does not equate to “Palestinians will not negotiate”. Arafat was a bad political leader but don’t blindly assume that all Palestinians are the same.
Anyway, its foolish to compare this to WWII, i.e conventional armies fighting conventional armies. What you don’t get is its not ‘Israel versus Palestinians’ but meant to be ‘Israel versus Hamas’ and hence why your analogy is so utterly flawed.
Why not use more realistic comparisons like Spain versus ETA or UK/Ulster versus IRA? Or are those two inconvenient for you?
If you studied either of those conflicts, you would learn lessons on how to deal with terrorists without sacrificing your ethics and the moral high ground.
As for “This is not a pointless military action”, ok what is the point then? What do you think Israel can really achieve here? Please educate me..
January 9th, 2009 at 2:13 am
Let’s not get into an argument over what I’ve studied and what you’ve studied (sigh) the point is clear that innocents die in war.
The argument is “is the war necessary”.
And my opinion is “Yes it is.”
This is not a conventional army. It is an army that hides in schools and shoots rockets from hospitals and mosques.
It is an army that “negotiates” treaties and murders a week later. (or hours later)
It is an army that has commited every atrocity imaginable against the Jewish people.
The Jews waging war back is not a comparable argument or an honorable rebuttal.
You seem to suggest that the Palestinians have not endorsed Hamas or partaken in countless atrocities against Jews.
You seem to suggest Palestinians do not rejoice over dead Jews.
Jews do not want to wage this war.
Israel has to wage this war.
Israel will use this war to close weapon traffic lanes through Egypt. Israel will use this war to make life so insufferable that Palestinians will discourage Hamas. Peace will seem favorable to killing Jews.
Right now Palestinians allow Hamas to gather weapons, to use their mosques, and schools.
Right now Palestinians encourage Hamas to kill as many Jews as possible.
Tell me Lee where was your outrage when 6,000 rockets flew into Israel?
Where were the protests when Muslims marched into India and killed every Jew they found?
Do you really think Israel wants to move in on Palestine? Do the reserves really want to risk death? There are only a handful of Jews -in a global relation- living in the world. Every Jewish life is rare and hard fought over 3,000 years of oppression.
Israel deserves our support. They are doing the right thing.
January 9th, 2009 at 2:33 am
Lee, in your opinion how many rockets does Israel have to take from Hamas before they decide to defend their own children’s lives? What would be an acceptable or legitimate response?
January 9th, 2009 at 2:44 am
I’m going to sleep, but I want to leave you the reminder that the instant the first Jews walked the earth they suffered the near genocidal ravages of the Babylonians and the Egyptians.
The Assyrians and the Persians. The Greeks and the Romans. The Blacks and the Whites. The Christians and the Muslims. From Russia to Africa, from France to Britain nearly every race on earth has its hand in Jewish blood. The blood of Jewish children.
The screams of Jewish woman being raped and murdered have been heard by every nation. The cries of Jewish families have followed them all over the world.
And most of all in their very home. In Israel, where the Jews have done everything to live in peace. In Israel where 80% was taken from them to give Arabs Jordan and then more for peace that would never come.
And then they gave away even more for another hope at peace that would never rise as hight as the rockets that riddled their homes.
Yes they have American support. Yes they have a better, stronger military. But there is no country on earth as vulnerable as Israel.
There is no other people has haphazardly near to death as the Jewish children.
Israel will fight. They will fight and they will struggle. If there is a God and I believe there is then his time must be near.
Because the time of idleness is nearly over and a culmination of all we done should be upon us.
Sleep tight. Sleep deep.
January 9th, 2009 at 3:00 am
Well said Noel… thanks for your comments and your support of Israel. By the way, my boss is a Jewish carpenter.
January 9th, 2009 at 3:05 am
Noel,
The point about looking at other conflicts was not meant to belittle you but to make a point by comparing how those conflicts which have many similarities to this one, have largely been resolved without those nations resorting to oppressive blockades and bombing civilian populations.
“Hamas are evil, Hamas have done terrible things to the Jews (sic)”
I do not agree with Hamas’s charter, nor do I agree with their methods. However, the only way they can really hurt their enemy (Israel) is to fire low-tech Qassam rockets, take hostages (note they usually go after soldiers here) and/or launch suicide bomber attacks (or homicide as Blissful states). Trying to use the UN to put pressure on Israel has proved useless as Israel ignores the UN and other Arab countries are too afraid to launch direct action on Israel because the IDF (and the US in case Iran attacked) are far too strong militarily.
So as you can see the reason they resort to these tactics is they don’t have any others.
Now, as to my outrage over the rocket attacks. If the Palestinians were killing Israeli’s everyday with these attacks I’d have a lot more sympathy. In reality, the main effect of the rocket attacks is to cause Israel’s in the affected areas to be fearful and constantly reminded of Hamas’s presence. Again, not a tactic I agree with/condone, but one I understand.
After the failure of the Camp David talks, Israel should have been more patient and helped build up Abbas’s standing. However, even before the blockade there were illegal settlements and the barrier wall erection which all but destroyed any chance of negotiations.
Once Hamas got elected by frustrated Palestinians, then Israel punished them with the blockade.
It seems to me that you think by ‘waving the big stick’ you can make a nation cower to Israels terms. But thats not how most people react, instead you make them more defiant and you encourage greater support of radicals like Hamas.
This is one reason why this military action is pointless because the best result you can achieve is a short-term cessation in the number of rocket attacks (due to eliminating current stockpiles) but thats it and at the cost of increasing hatred towards Israel by Palestinians and a great recruitment commercial for Hamas.
Both Israeli’s and Palestinians deserve ‘our support’ and it is naive to think that either are completely in the right or completely in the wrong. Both have contributed to this mess and both are culpable for the deaths caused.
Oppression is not the way to solve this problem.
January 9th, 2009 at 3:08 am
Dusty,
The way to respond is firstly to at all costs avoid targeting those not affiliated to Hamas. So let me give you some ways:
1) Firstly, get rid of the blockade.. If you are concerned about smuggling arms then maintain checkpoints and just reserve the right to conduct searches.
2) In response to rocket attacks, use your your Intelligence services to identify areas/persons used to launch these attacks and then ask for Palestinian cooperation in bringing them to justice. If inevitably they don’t cooperate then you send in special forces to specifically target and capture the individuals concerned.
3) While maintaining 2) which does not impact everyday Palestinians, you look for ‘carrot methods’ to increase Palestinian support for peace e.g investment in infrastructure, dismantling illegal settlements and preventing new ones, negotiating with Syria, helping to empower more moderate factions etc etc
4) You keep up 2) and 3) unceasingly and despite casualties caused by the terrorists until you finally achieve your aims of peace.
If you can suggest another path to peace or even just how you will stop the rocket attacks, please let me know.
January 9th, 2009 at 3:30 am
What have the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob done to deserve the historical persecution of their nation, Israel?
It’s worth taking a look at.
http://www.inspiration.net/thinkitthru/index.cfm/page/3/video/1272074236
Does God bless His chosen people?
http://www.inspiration.net/thinkitthru/index.cfm/page/4/video/1272150871
Who are the chosen people?
http://www.inspiration.net/thinkitthru/index.cfm/page/3/video/1442318772
January 9th, 2009 at 4:03 am
The Vatican, the Red Cross, and the U.N. That’s who we are supposed to believe? Three of the most virulently anti-Semitic organizations ever to stalk the earth. The trouble with a lot of the posters here is that they believe the fakery coming out of Pallywood. Do you know France 2 – a main supplier of footage from the Arab regions has been taken to court and found guilty of manufacturing stories and staging the dramatic ambulance style footage of “injuries” to Arab “civilians we are so used to seeing.
Don’t believe me? Go to www dot seconddraft dot org/movies.php.
Question the media you are consuming like kool-aid.
January 9th, 2009 at 4:08 am
Lee, i like your proactive ideas… especially efforts to involve moderate palestinian sympathizers, many of whom are fed up with the extremists who have been successful in railroading any stability.
Jake has an interesting point, however. Much of the media seems to support the terrorists. That is very perplexing indeed. The media seems at war with Israel’s efforts to defend itself. Who is leading that charge?
January 9th, 2009 at 5:15 am
Completely Tragic!!!! I really pray that the ADULTS on both sides can see the tragedy in the loss of these children’s lives and find a way to peace! For the sake of their children. Good God, please!
January 9th, 2009 at 5:45 am
Dusty,
To be honest I’d tuned out to Jakes response once he started up bringing up the UN, RC and Vatican as ‘virulently’ anti-Semetic and then started implying that all the ‘bad’ news against Israel is just propaganda..
However you raise an interesting point. To be honest, after thinking about this a little I think the media like to explore the impact on everyday people. I have seen reports before on the effects of the rocket attacks and the way Israeli’s have got used to running to bomb shelters but I’ve certainly seen a great deal more reports recently of how Gazan civilians are getting caught up in the crossfire, particularly children.
I think certainly more left-wing biased outlets tend to be more slanted towards Palestinians and vice-versa but I don’t see it as black and white like that. I think if anything the Palestinian deaths right now are simply ‘more controversial’ and controversy sells.
January 9th, 2009 at 5:53 am
Lee,
According to your own methods, it really has been Israel’s last resort, going to war.
1) That was the situation before the blockade. But when ambulances are being used to smuggle explosives – you would have to search every square inch of every vehicle and every person going through those checkpoints, which is impossible.
2) Again, this was what was done in Israel. But the areas used to fire rockets were either empty fields or populated areas – what can you do about those? And getting the persons… There are hundreds of them, they hide within civilian population, and they are all Hamas. Would you expect Hamas to arrest its own army?
3) But this was done as well! Until 2001, the entire textile industry in Israel was based almost entirely on palestinian workers. There were so many Israel-initiated industrial projects that employed Palestinians, it all stopped when those palestinians used their work permit to commit suicide bombings. In 2005 Israel disengaged from Gaza, forcing thousands of Israelis out of their homes. I didn’t see how this affected the Palestinian opinion over Israel.
4) And again, for 8 years Israeli cities were attacked by Hamas. I don’t see any modern country trying to find a peaceful solution for eight years under rocket fire.
It has all been tried, as you can see.
January 9th, 2009 at 6:36 am
Hi Dvir,
Re: 1) Please.. Are you seriously trying to state that one of the most experienced nations in the world if not the most experienced at combatting terrorism, is unable to implement search procedures good enough to detect rockets and explosives.. come on..
2) You use intelligence and satellite to track them, its hard but not impossible. Moreover its the morally ‘right way’ to bring these people to justice. And you missed my point about cooperation, although obviously you aren’t going to get much, you never stop trying if you don’t get the cooperation thats why you launch special forces operations which don’t inflict civilian casualties (or have a much lower risk) and more importantly maintain moral superiority.
3) Not long enough and it doesn’t work well if you do the other things I said not to (i.e build illegal settlements, erect barriers that essentially annex land etc)
4) Again see 3) but also try doing this for decades like Spain and the UK and then tell me its been long enough.
Besides, I don’t see an alternative path to be peace being offered/suggested here only a way to get some measure of revenge as far as I can tell? I’d still like to know how this latest military response can possibly help lead to peace? Do you really think the IDF will destroy Hamas or even prevent the rocket attacks long-term?
Thats not a rhetorical question btw, I’m really curious to understand how this action can logically help Israel’s long-term goals.
January 9th, 2009 at 7:12 am
Lee,
The logic is simple: Israel has for 15 years tried to end violence by talking, negotiating with the help of US and Europe, disengaging from Gaza, trying to make industrial projects work, releasing hundreds of Palestinian prisoners – nothing ever changed anything.
Whenever Israel reached its hand out for peace, it was always answered with more violence. It happened in 1993 (when Israel gave the Palestinian police guns to keep the civilian peace – guns that eventually were used to shoot Israelis), in 2001 (when Arafat was offered 98% of his demands), in 2005 (when Israel disengaged from Gaza).
The goal of this operation is not to destroy Hamas and not to prevent rocket attacks by force. The goal here is to make Hamas, Egypt, and whoever is willing to listen, that Israel will not tolerate these attacks anymore. If the world wants the violence to stop, the world will have to be responsible for stopping the smuggling of rockets into Gaza. If Israel can’t get the world to do something to protect Israeli civilians, now the world will act to protect Palestinian civilians, and everyone will enjoy the peace.
It seems that not even Hamas wants the Israeli attack to stop. It hasn’t been 3 hours since the UN decided on a cease-fire, and Hamas fired 30 rockets at Israeli cities.
January 9th, 2009 at 8:25 am
The UN has been outwardly anti Israel for many, many years. Over 3000 rockets fired into Israel this past year and I don’t remember hearing a peep out of the UN. There was no call from the UN for Hamas to cease fire. When Hezbollah was firing rockets into Israel from Lebanon there was no outcry from the UN. But when Israel went into Lebanon after Hezbollah the UN immediately called for Israel to back off and cease their march against Hezbollah.
The UN doesn’t hide their contempt for Israel. Israel has all the right in the world to do what they are doing. Hamas hides behind women and children all the time because they know what kind of response they will get from the UN. They store their weapons in mosques knowing that if Israel attacks them in a mosque that the world, the UN will comdemn Israel.
Hamas is nothing but a cowardly terrorist group who sole, stated agenda is the total destruction of Isarel. Hamas must be destroyed before this brutal conflict will end.
January 9th, 2009 at 9:08 am
I see it like this:
For some people, 100% of their sources believe that THEIR side is 100% right and the other side is 100% wrong.
This justifies ANYTHING and EVERYTHING their side does AND condemns ANYTHING and EVERYTHING the other side does.
These 100%ers are on BOTH sides.
Then there are those who see it as 55-45, 45-55.
These people are ALWAYS seen by 100%ers as 100% on the WRONG side.
Unfortunately, it is the 100%ers who always condone the violence.
January 9th, 2009 at 9:29 am
I do not condone violence. You cannot sit on the fence all the time. There are times when action is needed. What should Israel do? Maybe we shouldn’t have gone into Afghanistan. Maybe we shouldn’t have beat back Imperial Japan and Tojo. Maybe we shouldn’t have defeated Nazi Germany and Hitler. Hey, maybe we shouldn’t have kicked Britian out of our country 230 odd years ago.
No one is ever 100 percent right. (Heck I was wrong once) lol But Israel is justified in what they are doing.
January 9th, 2009 at 9:41 am
I am speaking as a 55-45%er, here:
That is EXACTLY what the other side says. I believe you can take the rhetoric of EITHER side, not identify them , think it comes from YOUR side, and agree with them.
“What should Israel do?”
The Palistinians say the same thing. They claim that the right wing Israelis want them to sit in their refugee camps and shut up.
“ Maybe we shouldn’t have gone into Afghanistan. Maybe we shouldn’t have beat back Imperial Japan and Tojo. Maybe we shouldn’t have defeated Nazi Germany and Hitler. Hey, maybe we shouldn’t have kicked Britian out of our country 230 odd years ago.”
The 100%ers on the Palistinian side think the Israelis are the Tojo, the German war machine, or the British Empire,….the Goliath battling the David.
They think they are justified.
January 9th, 2009 at 10:00 am
Some people think what hitler did was noble. It doesn’t make them right.
January 9th, 2009 at 10:07 am
Why won’t my post go through??
This is getting frustrating.
January 9th, 2009 at 10:09 am
Old Lefty, are you one of those fence sitters? I know what you are saying but it doesn’t make any sense to me. You are saying that evil cannot be identified and therefore cannot be taken on and defeated.
Would you adhere to that logic if a hoodlum broke into your home and looted it and harmed your family.
I am talking about evil regimes and people who have advocated the total annihilation of the Israeli people. That is their stated goal. Hamas that is. They are evil. And evil must be defeated.
January 9th, 2009 at 10:10 am
Hey Placefield, trying to get ones point across can be frustrating also. I think we all have that.
January 9th, 2009 at 10:12 am
Hamas, hezbollah, iran, and others have ALL said all jews need to die. They have said the holocaust was a myth. Their beliefs are in line with nazis and white supremacists, who many on this site abhore.
There is a right, and a wrong. There is good and evil. perspective might influence where you think you fit in the mix, much like a person who is crazy thinks they are perfectly sane.
That does not mean there isn’t a right and wrong.
January 9th, 2009 at 10:14 am
Well said Blissful. There is no gray areas here. Hamas is evil. Evil has to be defeated.
January 9th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Maybe if I paraphrase and give the readers digest version it will go through. I was trying to say that sometimes violent and harsh action is needed and warranted, such as droping the bombs on Japan. Wether or not that is the case here this is affecting alot of incocents or unlucky swimmers. Everybody should find that deeply disturbing and revolting. I find that compasion lacking in some of the above posts.
January 9th, 2009 at 10:24 am
I don’t think any of us lack compassion Placefield. “The way for evil to win is for good people to do nothing.” I don’t know if that is an exact quote but it makes all the sense in the world to me. Most of the time evil has to be defeated by violence, which is war. And war is not compassionate. I believe our soldiers are compassionate. They go out of their way to avoid innocent casualties. I believe the Israeli soldiers go out of their way to avoid innocent casualties. But, as in any war ever fought, innocent lives are lost, tragically. It is unavoidable.
I pray for all those who died who were not involved in the conflict. But Hamas does hide itself behind these innocents. They are cowards.
January 9th, 2009 at 10:36 am
Anybody ever read the Geneva Conventions? They are available on line. Here.
http://www.genevaconventions.org/
Purposefully firing rockets and mortars at civilians (Hamas) is a war crime. Accidentally killing civilians (Israel) is not. Firing rockets and mortars from among the civilian population (Hamas), thus ensuring civilian casualties when your enemy strikes back, is a war crime.
The blood of every dead and wounded civilian, whether Palestinian or Israeli, in this conflict stains only the hands of Hamas.
War is an ugly thing. There are worse things though. Try losing one.
January 9th, 2009 at 10:37 am
Oh, by the way, from Geneva Convention IV:
The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favor or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations.
Big fat war crime.
January 9th, 2009 at 10:43 am
“Two wrongs don’t make a right” is an exact quote. If Israel absolutely has to retaliate then they should at least make it an objective to reduce Palestinian women and children’s casualties to much less than 40%.
January 9th, 2009 at 10:52 am
Willy,
I am not saying that evil cannot be identified and therefore cannot be taken on and defeated, I’m saying that I do not agree that in THIS one side is evil, and one side is good. Both behave in an evil manner at times…You want to tell me who is evil.
“Would you adhere to that logic if a hoodlum broke into your home and looted it and harmed your family. “
Would you respond by bombing the hoodlum’s entire neighborhood?
The stated goal of the Israelis is to annihilate the government of the Palistinians.
I believe that if SOME group of people were given a chunk of YOUR state, and given huge military might, and you had to leave , and had no where to go, and nothing to lose, many 100%ers on THIS site do what Hamas is doing.
The Israelis engaged the same tactics against the British, who called THEM terrorists.
The only people who don’t are the Tibetans, and SURPRISE!!! Nobody cares about them.
January 9th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Purposefully firing rockets and mortars at civilians (Hamas) is a war crime. Accidentally killing civilians (Israel) is not
………………………………..
They say the Israelis are “Purposefully firing rockets and mortars where they know they are accidentally killing civilians.
White phosphorus is also against the Geneva Conventions.
January 9th, 2009 at 11:01 am
They do. The Palestinian militants just don’t care. In fact, they want more civilian casualties. In addition, I don’t believe their figures, or the UN figures based on Palestinian sources. Go look at the originally published and accepted figures for the Jenine “massacre” and then look at the actual figures tallied but studiously ignored, later. Look at the faked al-Dura footage propagated by France 2, and still accepted as truth throughout the Middle East. Here, their latest fakery:
http://frum.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MTF…mMzZGVlODZlMDA=
Or, here, if you want to understand just how much these religious whackos care about the civilians they use as human shields.
From today’s NYT:
By TAGHREED EL-KHODARY
Published: January 8, 2009
GAZA CITY — The emergency room in Shifa Hospital is often a place of gore and despair. On Thursday, it was also a lesson in the way ordinary people are squeezed between suicidal fighters and a military behemoth.
Dr. Awni al-Jaru, 37, a surgeon at the hospital, rushed in from his home here, dressed in his scrubs. But he came not to work. His head was bleeding, and his daughter’s jaw was broken.
He said Hamas militants next to his apartment building had fired mortar and rocket rounds. Israel fired back with force, and his apartment was hit. His wife, Albina, originally from Ukraine, and his 1-year-old son were killed.
“My son has been turned into pieces,” he cried. “My wife was cut in half. I had to leave her body at home.” Because Albina was a foreigner, she could have left Gaza with her children. But, Dr. Jaru lamented, she would not leave him behind.
A car arrived with more patients. One was a 21-year-old man with shrapnel in his left leg who demanded quick treatment. He turned out to be a militant with Islamic Jihad. He was smiling a big smile.
“Hurry, I must get back so I can keep fighting,” he told the doctors.
He was told that there were more serious cases than his, that he needed to wait. But he insisted. “We are fighting the Israelis,” he said. “When we fire we run, but they hit back so fast. We run into the houses to get away.” He continued smiling.
“Why are you so happy?” this reporter asked. “Look around you.”
A girl who looked about 18 screamed as a surgeon removed shrapnel from her leg. An elderly man was soaked in blood. A baby a few weeks old and slightly wounded looked around helplessly. A man lay with parts of his brain coming out. His family wailed at his side.
“Don’t you see that these people are hurting?” the militant was asked.
“But I am from the people, too,” he said, his smile incandescent. “They lost their loved ones as martyrs. They should be happy. I want to be a martyr, too.”
The blood of every civilian wounded or killed in this conflict stains ONLY the hands of Hamas. They must be destroyed.
January 9th, 2009 at 11:04 am
Don’t blame the palestinians for placing the women and children where they know they are storing weapons. don’t blame the palestinians for storing weapons in mosques and schools.
Continue to say that a group who has said repeatedly that israel and every jew should be wiped off the map are legitimate in their terror. coddle them, take up for them. It is what they want.
If you lived in new jersey and that ws the first home you had for centuries, and you were surrounded by the rest of the U.S. and they hated your guts and wanted you and your family dead. If you lived daily in new jersey while a country beside you fired rockets into your home repeatedly, over and over, year after year….would you defend yourself or lie down like a sick dog and let them take away your life?
January 9th, 2009 at 11:06 am
Please show me where white phosphorus is referenced in the Geneva Conventions. It is not, nor are cluster munitions, napalm, or depleted uranium. Personally, I think they probably should be, but they are not. It is a bogus argument, built on wishful thinking.
Hamas needs to be crushed. It is the right thing to do.
Again, the blood only stains the hands of Hamas.
January 9th, 2009 at 11:07 am
Old,
According to this:http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/wp.htm
Use of white phospherus is not against any international law.
January 9th, 2009 at 11:08 am
And, of course, according to the American Society of International Law (bunch of really smart lawyer guys and gals):
Both the 1925 Geneva Protocol on the use of poisonous gases and the 1993 Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC) prohibit the use of chemical weapons in armed conflict.[10] The United States is a party to both of these treaties. WP munitions contain chemicals but are not necessarily chemical weapons because their uses for marking or illuminating targets, creating smoke screens to cover military maneuvers, and incendiary purposes are allowed by the CWC as �[m]ilitary purposes not connected with the use of chemical weapons and not dependent on the use of the toxic properties of chemicals as a method of warfare� (Article II.9(c)), as long as the types and quantities of the chemicals are consistent with such purposes (Article II.1(a)). To bring the use of WP munitions under the prohibition on the use of chemical weapons in the CWC, it would have to be established that WP (1) is a toxic chemical or p recursor chemical; and (2) was used for purposes prohibited by the CWC.
Feel free to go look up the references.
January 9th, 2009 at 11:13 am
Maybe now the palestinians will stop supporting Hamas. Here’s a good election slogan, “Vote Hamas, and we’ll stand behind your kids.”
January 9th, 2009 at 11:23 am
Willy,
My original message that would not post was more elegant then what I was able to post above and I think was clearer that I am not trying to claim that anybody is actualy lacking in compasion, I certainly do not know what is in your heart. Just that I find it lacking in some posts. As someone who was in the armed forces (lucky for me right in between the two Iraq invasions) you are right there are alot of good compasionate people serving this country in the armed services. There is also training with the sole purpose of limiting civilian casualties. Battle is hectic and caotic and things happen. For some reason (just the way I am wired I guess) I have a hard time viewing things from purely a good vs evil approach as I think there are usualy (not always) aspects of both on every side.
January 9th, 2009 at 11:29 am
Ah, Good morning! Now where was I? Oh yes,
the Jewwwzz. (As Alan would say)
I’ve read all your posts and I think we’ve exhausted the debate. The totality of ideas expressed here cover the gamut of opinion considering the Middle East conflict.
But that’s sort of the problem.
There are plenty of Wikipedia experts throwing around smart ideas about what is going on and what needs to be done.
But this war is bigger than the past 12 months. This war is the culmination of Israel fighting for peace for the past 100, 300, 3,000 years.
Please turn off the Wikipedia and if you want to read an interesting, smartly written book about Israel and Palestine read the exhaustive “Idiot’s Guide to the Middle East Conflict.”
I can think of no better book, written by assorted authors, covering the conflict from Abraham to Gaza with no bias, no spin or lean but all at once fun to read (with pictures!) and smart enough to get you started in the right direction.
You can read all about it on Wikipedia.com
January 9th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
According to this:http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/wp.htm
Use of white phospherus is not against any international law
………………………………..
As a smokescreen, not as a weapon.
“The Geneva Treaty of 1980 stipulates that white phosphorus should not be used as a weapon of war in civilian areas, but there is no blanket ban under international law on its use as a smokescreen or for illumination.”
January 9th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
OLDLEFTY:
“The stated goal of the Israelis is to annihilate the government of the Palistinians.”
That is not true. The stated goal is to stop attacks on Israeli civilians. I don’t know where you got that information from.
“I believe that if SOME group of people were given a chunk of YOUR state, and given huge military might, and you had to leave , and had no where to go, and nothing to lose, many 100%ers on THIS site do what Hamas is doing.”
Are you talking about 1948? There was no Palestinian state. Israel was just founded, and so should have Palestine – but didn’t, and chose to fight instead. The Palestinians had all the military might of the Arab countries in the Middle East. If anything, the Jews didn’t have anywhere to go.
“The Israelis engaged the same tactics against the British, who called THEM terrorists.”
Did pre-1948 Israelis ever suicide bomb a bus full of British soldiers? Did they aim rockets at civilians? The organizations that did use terrorism against British targets were immediately outlawed when the state of Israel was declared.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Dvir,
Didn’t they say the goal was to destroy Hamas?
From The Jerusalem Post:
“Israel will push forward with its offensive in the Gaza Strip until it “completely destroys” Hamas, Israel’s ambassador to the United Nations, Gabriela Shalev, said Monday, saying that the operation will continue as long as necessary to reach that goal.”
Of course they engaged in those activities.
You had Irgun and Black Sunday.
Under Raziel, the Irgun stepped up terrorist activities against the Arabs. The most significant acts were explosions in the Arab markets of Haifa and Jerusalem. On July 6, 1938, a member of the Irgun, disguised as an Arab, went to the Arab market in Haifa, placed a large parcel beside one of the barrows in the center of the market and left. Shortly afterwards there was a heavy explosion, which killed 21 Arabs and injured more than 50. A week later a similar incident took place in Jerusalem.
No one is working on a two state solution.
A one state solution will provide a homeland to the Semites, but not a Jewish state.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
Oldlefty,
I read a story today about that quote from Mrs. Gabriela Shalev. She did not express herself correctly. Both Israel’s PM and minister of defense clearly stated several times that it was NOT the goal of this operation to eliminate Hamas. Gabriela corrected herself later, saying that she meant completely destroy Hamas’s military capabilities.
About the terrorist activities that you mentioned – I didn’t know about them. However, as I said before, they were outlawed and their arms were removed as soon as the state of Israel was declared in 1948 – much unlike Hamas, which uses terrorism as official policy.
A two-state solution is the only diplomatic solution Israel is pushing forward.
January 9th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Actually:
Protocol III: Protocol III of the CCW, as adopted in 1980, allows the use of incendiary weapons to attack military targets located near concentrations of civilians only when the military target is clearly separated from the concentration of civilians and all feasible precautions are taken to minimize civilian casualties and collateral damage.
January 9th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
Your points are well taken Placefield. But in this case of Hamas, I believe it is evil. Israel doesn’t have an untarnished halo, but they are taking on an evil organization. Hamas stated goal is the destruction of Israel. Israel in in the fight for it’s right to exist. And they will defend it any means available to them.
You sound like a very reasonable and compassionate person. I look forward to further discussions with you.
January 9th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
Lefty, I agree with Gabriella on this point. Simply because Hamas will not and have never shown any restraint against Israel. They fire rockets during a cease fire. They have broken every truce or cease fire between the two parties. They can never be trusted, therefore their destruction seems to be the only way to stop the violence
Israel is backed into a corner, and they have no other choice.
January 9th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
So….Noel….Tell us how you REALLY feel?
“”Israel has been fighting for peace for 3000 years?”"
Yeah, that book you’ve been reading sounds like a real wealth of knowledge…
“” In Israel, where the Jews have done everything to live in peace”"?!
and my favorite;
“”Israel will use this war to make life so insufferable that Palestinians will discourage Hamas”"
Surely you do not really believe this?!
What kind of ridiculous strategy would THAT be?
When has that EVER worked for a people?
All this brutality from Israel is GATHERING support for Hamas by the people!
Why kind of silly book would say otherwise?
January 9th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
“”You need to take what God says seriously.”"
God talks to you?
January 9th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
Noel, you keep pumping a book by Alan Dershowitz and even have the chutzpah to say ‘its unbiased’. I haven’t read the book but are you honestly telling me a book is unbiased about the conflict when written by a Jew whom publically advocates destroying Palestinian ‘villages’ as a means to responding to terrorism!.. Do you work for Fox by any chance?
Dvir, as I stated before if you offer the carrot approach but then simultaneously beat with the big stick or take other actions to humiliate your enemy, the carrot approach won’t work. Also, not to beat a dead horse but for the umpteenth time I agree Arafat was not committed to peace.. It doesn’t mean his successors aren’t.
And finally to all the Israel 100%’ers here, I would just echo Oldlefty’s comments that neither side is 100% right or 100% right. Arguing that Israeli actions are wrong/immoral etc does not equate to Hamas actions are right..
January 9th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
Please give me a definition of ANTI-SEMETIC. Were the “Russian and European Jews semites?
January 9th, 2009 at 6:57 pm
Doesn’t matter who is wrong or who is right, both countries need to stop the murder, PERIOD!
January 9th, 2009 at 7:49 pm
“Please give me a definition of ANTI-SEMETIC. Were the “Russian and European Jews semites?”
Yes.
January 9th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
Lee:
“It doesn’t mean his successors aren’t.”
So Hamas ARE committed to peace? Interesting.
I don’t think Israel is 100% right. Both sides have done many wrongs. But I have no doubt that Israel stands on a higher moral ground here.
No offense Lee but I think you’re not being realistic about this. It’s the middle east, not Europe. Conflicts in this area have always been resolved with violence, long before the first Zionists came to Israel. It’s no coincidence that Israel is the only real democracy in the Middle East. Sometimes the modern, western tools just can’t work.
Even worse: Hamas is using the western morals against the world, just like some villain using the superhero’s morals against him. Staged scenes of blackouts and murder have been spread out to the world media before by Hamas, and still are.
January 9th, 2009 at 8:24 pm
“”Staged scenes of blackouts and murder have been spread out to the world media before by Hamas, and still are.”"
Unlike their opponents, who of course have never used the media for their own gain…
January 9th, 2009 at 8:33 pm
I have to admit, although I knew Hamas were using their own people as human shields, one thing I didn’t know up until now was that Hamas even planted explosives in/near civilian homes so that when the IDF strike it is more likely to kill civilians (this is sourced from the IDF, but its credible to me).
It still doesn’t excuse the military action but perhaps those fiercely defending the Israeli response will realize folks like myself are actually trying to be objective here and not just blindly condemn Israel.
January 9th, 2009 at 8:34 pm
Alan, it is courageous to speak out against the massacres Israel is perpetuating in Gaza. However, I fear for your future career as usually critisism of the Israeli war machine results in the wrath of the powerful zionist lobby in the US (as evidenced by some of the hateful comments above.) I am beginning to see light at the end of the tunnel though. We are slowly, but surely, realizing that our blind support of Israel bears no fruit for America and our values whatsoever. The whole world cannot be wrong yet again and only the US and Israel are right as has always been the case in the past. I envisage in the next decade or so, especially with the difficult economic times ahead, a slowing of our endless financial aid to Israel and finding better ways to spend our money right here at home. Keep up the good work. The tide is slowly turning.
January 9th, 2009 at 8:51 pm
Lee, you may be right that the Hamas-supported terrorists are using horrible tactics in this ‘war’.
I suppose this is the result of being badly outgunned.
And yes, the whole world is now calling for some restraint from Israel. In fact, a few days ago the UN proposition for a cease-fire was vetoed by, you guessed it, the US…
C’mon Jan. 20th!
Personally I blame it all on religion.
Here’s a charming quote from the Talmud that may explain why some (not all) Israelis think that their massive and deadly response is justified…
“”Baba Kamma 37b. “If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite…the payment is to be in full.”"
Isn’t religion great!?
January 9th, 2009 at 9:04 pm
Check out this link, and click the blue “video” link. It made me want to vomit. They are encouraging people to act as human shields.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mitchell-bard/video-reveals-that-a-lack_b_156565.html
January 9th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
Lee,
I never considered you as one that blindly condemns Israel, just as I don’t blindly defend it (even though as I said before, I am Israeli). I greatly respect your opinions and even try to learn some new things.
January 9th, 2009 at 9:10 pm
“Unlike their opponents, who of course have never used the media for their own gain…”
Using the media for your own gain is legitimate, everyone does that, and should. But staging a scene of a child being shot by Israel soldiers? Staging blackouts in Gaza while the power is still up and running? What kind of a comparison are you trying to make here?
January 9th, 2009 at 9:13 pm
Frosty:
“Personally I blame it all on religion.”
Me too :D
January 9th, 2009 at 9:13 pm
Not sure about those things, DVIR…but I do know that there ARE blackouts and dozens if not hundreds of children being killed, perhaps just not conveniently caught on film?
And yes shot. I read the book ‘War’ by the respected non-politcal war correspondant Chris Hedges.
He tells a ghastly story that he witnessed at one of the Palestinian refugee camps. Israeli jeeps with loudspeakers would patrol just out side the fence and call out to the “Dogs” inside, calling out the worst imaginable insults in Arabic. Until finally gangs of children would come running to the fence to throw rocks at the soldiers.
Of course these children had been indoctrinated to hate Jews, and taught that they were ‘heroes’ for doing this. The soldiers then picked them off with silenced sniper rifles as they fled. The Palestinians actually knew this would happen, and had rickety ambulances standing by! Madness from both sides!
The point is that the hawks on both sides seem incorrigable to me…I don’t see one side as being more or less morally right! And the moderates are silenced.
But I know the solution can’t be this massive onslaught…
January 9th, 2009 at 9:36 pm
Thanks Dvir,
You also have my respect even though we may radically disagree on certain issues.
January 9th, 2009 at 9:40 pm
@blissfulconservative
If you go into history, then do it from the beginning!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
Who startet the terror now?
January 9th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
And just for information. Hamas offered to stop their attacks. The only thing Israel had to do was to end the siege. Read an learn:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231167305710&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
January 9th, 2009 at 9:56 pm
Mr. Israel Terminate the Occupation Mr. Jew Break down the Fence around Gaza. Mr. Israel Stop being an Arafat/A. Sharon(they are both dead ).
January 9th, 2009 at 9:57 pm
Obviously human shields are not working against the Israelis, if that is indeed the case.
They didn’t work against the US in ‘03 when many Canadians (stupidly) went to Iraq as such, and many were, of course, killed. Along with hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians.
I really do not think there would be so much support of this violent disproportionate action by Israel if it weren’t for some misguided religious belief that the Jews are needed for the ‘End of days’ ..where they will convert to Christianity, !
It’s not likely though, is it?
From the Talmud:
“”Rosh Hashanah 17a . Christians (”minim”) and others who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations”"
“”Sanhedrin 90a.Those who read the New Testament will have no portion in the world to come.”"
Good luck with that…
January 9th, 2009 at 9:59 pm
Lets see.. god promised a land that would be theirs “for an everlasting possesion” thats in genesis (look it up) the chosen people. “peculiar unto me” thats in exodus. one wonders was this land already occupied? Yes. Who dares occupy this land that god has already claimed for his “chosen people”? Canaanites? yeah but heck they didnt matter, their extermination was already decided by ? common lets say it together “god”.. ” I will cut them off” exodus. yeah we can go back along way.. My question is why did god allow anyone to occupy this land when it was already promised? told ya judiaism was next. Wow I feel like Rush… exploiting a problem without a solution. Nahhh I have a solution but the good people will not like it, so they can have their killings and feel bad about it which I guess makes them feel good(?!) gods will?
January 9th, 2009 at 10:46 pm
I guess in alot of ways we are still just tribal in nature. It is just the nature of our tribes that have changed
January 9th, 2009 at 10:51 pm
“”My question is why did god allow anyone to occupy this land when it was already promised?”"
Well Craig, God works in mysterious ways…
Presumably that’s why it’s called “God’s mysterious ways”…
January 9th, 2009 at 11:00 pm
Well Craig, God works in mysterious ways…
Presumably that’s why it’s called “God’s mysterious ways”…
Posted by badmrfrosty
LOL
Yes that explanation was used to answer many of my questions I had while growing up. Apparently I just asked to many questions and eventually grew tired of that answer.
January 9th, 2009 at 11:07 pm
Yeah im guessing the signs that said “promised land” wasn’t very specific.
January 9th, 2009 at 11:12 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OefgMtXOc1M
Here is an example what is really going on in Israel. Realize, I could not post recent photos on here. Found this video. Little Palestinian children (around 3 or 4 years old) are trained wearing military uniforms/machine guns. They are taught to hate Jews at a very early age by terrorists. There are also photos of these children wearing bogus suicide belts. And saying, “We want to be martyrs.”
January 9th, 2009 at 11:49 pm
Frosty,
I know of stories such as the one you told. The difference is, when Israeli soldiers are caught doing such things, they are being tried and often go to military jail.
Human shields worked against the Israelis for 8 years. But how many attacks against your civilians can you take before they stop working? If an Israeli plane drops a small bomb on a building, and then the explosive hidden below the building blow up and kill all the civilians inside – who’s morally responsible? It was the terrorist fire who killed the civilians. I think some moral questions are going to have to be debated thoroughly when this war is over.
And finally: as an Israeli and Jewish I don’t know any of the quotes you suggested, very few Israelis do, and see them as completely irrelevant to the debate.
January 10th, 2009 at 5:26 am
Well DVIR, my point is that just like christians, jews tend to cherry pick the ‘acceptable’ and benificial bits out of the Talmud and the bible,
It’s not a big deal…every religion does it, and it just shows (to me anyway, and maybe one or 2 others here) that a religion’s so-called ‘holy book’ is not perfect. They were written by (many different) men, and as such are fundamentally flawed, and need to stop being used as history, science, law…and worst of all they must not be continued to be used to influence policy…
As an Israeli, DVIR, are you saying that young jews are not taught history sympathetic to Israel? Blaming EVERYTHING on the Palestinians like you kinda seem to be doing? (That’s a rhetorical question btw, I already know the answer, cheers)
Form our point of view, sure, we can condemn terrorists acts by Palestinians ….
….but there seems to be a psychological block – a “desire not to tarnish the creation myth”, that prevents many Iraeli Jews (And US Cristians) from acknowedging the profound injustice the creation of the state of Israel meant for Palestinians…
January 10th, 2009 at 11:09 am
Frosty,
Yes, as kids, we do learn our history sympathetic to Israel. But how can it be otherwise? Young kids shouldn’t be faced with the full conflicts of reality at a young age. But there’s a difference between history education that favors one side, and preaching a child to hate.
Moreover, Israeli media is in constant debate about the morality of the occupation. Newspapers are full of articles, the web is full of blogs. There is a wide variety of opinions, and all of them are heard. That’s what democracy means, and as I said before, Israel is the only place in the middle east with that kind of freedom. Last week there was a demonstration in Tel Aviv against the war, where flags of Palestine were raised. That’s the power of the Israeli democracy.
I believe Israel has done, and still is doing, many wrongs. But when debating a subject you have to take sides. I don’t think Israel is 100% right, I don’t even think it’s 80% right. But at least people are making an effort here.
I totally agree about the holy book thing.
January 10th, 2009 at 11:38 am
.but there seems to be a psychological block – a “desire not to tarnish the creation myth”, that prevents many Iraeli Jews (And US Cristians) from acknowedging the profound injustice the creation of the state of Israel meant for Palestinians…
Yea, and others forget the European antisemitism that led to Jews feeling like it might be kind of dandy to have their very own country. One where today about 10% of the folks in government are Muslim.
I haven’t been able to find out what percentage of Jews there are in Israel’s neighbor’s governments. Anyone out there know? I know Saudia Arabia is a bastion of religious tolerance, but I’m not too sure about the others.
January 10th, 2009 at 11:48 am
But isn’t Saudia Arabia’s national anthem, Onward Christian Soldiers?
January 10th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
“”Moreover, Israeli media is in constant debate about the morality of the occupation. Newspapers are full of articles, the web is full of blogs.”"
Yes, you’re right. In fact I heard a young Isaraeli girl on the CBC radio a few days, calling for restraint by the military. Of course she said her family, at least her father, had disowned her :-(
She, like many moderate Israelis, is questioning why there can’t be a better solution…”teaching a lesson”?!
When has that EVER worked in history? Did it work in the 1770’s in the colonies when Britain “taught them a lesson” in representative gov’t and taxation?
Did it work in Norther Ireland when Ulster Loyalist forces fought back against the IRA (No).
How about Iraq? Think we’ve “taught them a lesson?”
Instead al Quaeda has had a membership boom!
I disagree that to debate you always have to take sides. (I agree with you…never 100% anyway)
Perhaps that ‘black and white’, ‘right v. wrong’ type of mentality…so prevalent in American life (from highschool sports, to war) is part of the problem. Mind you, I have taught, and taught with, Iraelis as well in an International school…and they like a good debate as well, lol
I also disagree that we can’t teach our children right from wrong in a truthful way from an early age.
We did that for many years as regards our own history of slavery. We tried to say it was OK becuase ‘Everybody did it” Whereas the truth is that many people, including my parents’ religion, the Quakers, have been opposed all along.
We tried to teach that the native Americans were “savages” and warred amongts themselves before we came. well, that’s true, kinda, lol. Indian wars were swift and sometimes brutal, but with NO WHERE near the casualties inflicted by “Guns Germs and Steel”…
Even now many Americans would rather bury that part of our past.
UMCARA, I don’t think anyone has (or will ever) forgot the atrocities against the jews in Europe. Although many Americans conveniently choose to forget about the hunderds of thousands that were turned away from coming to America before the holocaust…
But it doesn’t lessen the fundamental unfairness of the creation of ‘Israel’ in a land that had been primarily Muslim since the 7th century. I just think that has to be kept in mind.
Of course I’m not saying give it back, lol, or any such nonsense…anymore than we should ‘give back’ Manhattan Island, or Edmonton to native peoples that we ‘bought’ it from….a people that had absolutely no concept of ‘private property’, especially regarding land!
But the mistakes of the past HAVE to be remembered.
And like it or not, Israel may well have been a mistake…A hostile and unforgiving land that was only coveted because of bible stories and myths…
January 10th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
But isn’t Saudia Arabia’s national anthem, Onward Christian Soldiers?
Ha! It certainly should be, since it was a bunch of Christians that created that fake kingdom.
January 10th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Sure Um cara
but 20% of israelis are Muslim, not 10.
And what percentage Israelis are women? in gov’t? , this land of the free, as you imply?
And what precentage of them are allowed to marry a foreigner, or non-jew in Israel?
Israel may be more ‘democratic’ than other nations in the area (although Iran and iraq USED to have women in gov’t…don’t get me started…)
January 10th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
I don’t think anyone has (or will ever) forgot the atrocities against the jews in Europe. Although many Americans conveniently choose to forget about the hunderds of thousands that were turned away from coming to America before the holocaust
Good point, pretty much the whole world sucked. For example, Canada only allowed 5000 or so Jews to enter their country during the holocaust.
Perhaps that ‘black and white’, ‘right v. wrong’ type of mentality…so prevalent in American life (from highschool sports, to war) is part of the problem.
non snarky, genuine question alert-> Do you live in the US now or in the past? If so for how long and at what age?
January 10th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
Although women enjoy full representation and near-equaility in the conscripted armed forces, I will admit that…
And that’s what this young girl on the radio had done…refused to be drafted…
January 10th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
but 20% of israelis are Muslim, not 10.
Well, I bet Israel’s neighbors are way more tolerant Jews than Israel is of Muslims, what percentage of Saudia Arabia’s population is Jewish? And what percentage of their kingdom has Jewish ‘politicians’? Or Iran’s? Or Lebanon’s? I mean, surely the Jews don’t need their own country when their neighbors have been so historically tolerant of Jews, right? I bet a much higher percentage of the population of Israel’s neighbors are Jewish, and have representation equal to their population in government.
Israel really should learn the tolerance their neighbors and history has shown them.
January 10th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
Not only did Canada turn away applications from Jews, we actually turned back a transport ship full of them…not even allowing it to land!
Of course we didn’t take very many refugees from the USSR when Stalin allowed 20 million to starve either.
And neither of us helped out too much when under mao, 40,000,000 Chinese were killed under histories largest genocide.
Although poor old Romeo Dallaire of the Canadian armed forces tried to get the world to help in Rwanda, but no-one listened…
And so, history is full of this sort of thing. Recent history too, just a generation or 2. But supposedly we are in an enlightened time. Strong-arm tactics need to be updated, don’t they?
The whole ‘myth’ of war revolves around one side having to be RIGHT, and the other WRONG. One side has to WIN, the other be VANQUISHED.
Do you disagree that in many western countries, especially the US, we are raised to be competitive, to vanquish our opponents, winning is everything, ‘right’ is ‘might’….
Personally, although I have never lived in the US, I have worked there for a few months here and there over the years…and I HAVE seen the competitive streak that pervades US culture. It is in other countries as well of course, but less. Futbol is a good example.
Although, when the match (and the subsequent riots, lol)
are over, most Europeans go back to normal. In the UK for example there is much less of this `win or die trying mentality, especially after WW2…which perhaps is why they never win at sports anymore
January 10th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
Personally, although I have never lived in the US, I have worked there for a few months here and there over the years…and I HAVE seen the competitive streak that pervades US culture.
OK, that is good info to know. I think folks should keep that in mind when weighing your opinions on the United States. I know my understanding of Brazil is much deeper after having lived here for 2+ years, as opposed to my previous first hand experience of a few months of working here off and on.
As for me and Canada, I’ve worked there a few months (in total, over the past 10 years), and thus have as superficial an understanding of Canada as you do of the US. In Canada people are extremely polite, the friendliest drivers of any country I have ever been to, and don’t know how to pronounce ‘about’. Oh, and they like beer, bacon, and hockey. (And Vancouver is in my top 3 favorite cities in the world).
January 10th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
“Israel really should learn the tolerance their neighbors and history has shown them.“
Point well taken.
But after that, how helpful is it, really, to say “well THEY get away with it…so”…
My understanding of Arab culture is that women DON’T have full rights and freedoms…and so they are underrepresented in gov’t about 7% to Israel’s 14%.
What’s Israel’s excuse? I’ll give you a hint…it’s biblical!
I’m just saying that Israel is far from the beacon of light and freedon that Americans like to credit it with.
January 10th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
I don’t think anyone has (or will ever) forgot the atrocities against the jews in Europe.
Actually, plenty of folks have forgotten and/or don’t think it ever happened.
January 10th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
“”I think folks should keep that in mind (that badmrfrosty has not lived in the US) when weighing your opinions on the United States.”"
They can do that, sure.
But I will say then, as now, that one needs only to trust ones sources to learn much about the people of a nation. Especially one as written about as the US.
I suppose the time I have spent there working, mostly as a long-haul truck driver (plus a handful of gigs as a touring musican back in the 80’s/90’s – and one month-long gig as a studio assistant in Maui, but that hardly counts, all I did is drink and try to learn to surf, couldn’t, and so then drink more…)
…the time as a trucker, (maybe 4 months in total, that’s all) I am not exactly rubbing elbows with the hoi-polloi of American culture, but I stand by my observations of the US, because I trust my sources, HAVE worked there, visited friends there at least 50 times over the years, and don’t forget…there’s a cartload of you Yanks up here.
A fellow musician, and good friend of mine here in Halifax , (name redacted), is in fact, a draft dodger from Vietnam… a fact that was (and still is) mentioned, to his horror every time he made the press, back in the day.
Now it’s more of a novelty. “Appearing tonight…” and helps him get bookings!
Anyway I agree that there is nothing like living in a country to get a ‘feel’ for it. And Brazil, wow.
But remember that you don’t get everything just from living there, do you? One needs to read and study a culture as well. And the history. You could live up here in Nova Scotia for 2 lifetimes amongst many of my fellow musicians and not learn very much at all, I assure you,,,lol
January 10th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
I’m just saying that Israel is far from the beacon of light and freedon that Americans like to credit it with.
You often speak w/ absolutes. I don’t think Israel is a ‘beacon of light’. But sure, some Americans do.
I agree with you quite a bit, but I must confess you irritate me greatly. Probably the whole, I can talk bad about my wife but I don’t want anyone else to syndrome (not that I am married anymore, but you get the point).
Oh well, end of true confession hour. I’d buy you a Moosehead if we were having this conversation in a bar. Nah, make that a Sam Adams, you can buy me the Moosehead. More cross-cultural understanding that way.
January 10th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
“”tually, plenty of folks have forgotten and/or don’t think (the Holocaust) ever happened.”‘
Yes, and it’s sickening when done by ‘educated’ deniers like the Canadian teacher, Ernst Zundel, who we convicted and shipped back to Germany.
Holocauset denial by young shinheads, however, who have never opened a book in their life, or by militant Islamists like (fill in name of Iranian titular head of gov’t here)…I think it’s more about posturing and saber-rattling, although still very hateful, but naive and silly as well.
Some Jews do it too, or course, prevaricate I mean; I was recently reading an account where some scholars teach that 16,000,000 Jewish children were killed by Romans over the years.
Impossible, of course.
And remember stauch Catholic Mel Gibson’s “Apocalyptico”, which slyly implied that the Mayans would have wiped themselves out even without the “Guns, Germs and Steel” of the (Cathloic) conquistadores.
Talk about denial….
January 10th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
“irritate me greatly..”
Oh well, :-(
yes, I have heard that a few times in my life. More and more the older I get.
When I first started debating online, many years ago – remember BB’s? I was often called the ‘voice of reason’ but I grew weary of that after a few years.
why? Well I guess because I know that it’s natural for people to get their back up when they feel someone is being ‘unfair’…and we end up defending things we were attacking just a few days ago!
and so when I live in Canada I spent all my time criticising Canada…when I moved to the EU, I defended Canada…When faced with US-bashing, I defend the good aspects of the US etc etc…and now here on Liberraland, it’s a mixed bag, really…
I certainly will not agree to some sappy ‘middle road’, or ‘agree to disagree’ when it comes to some things. Evolution vs Creationism for one. The Bible, Talmud or Qu’ran as anything other than ancient texts written by men (understandably) ignorant of science for another.
I think we’re all like that, I’m just worse.
Trust me, I’m even more annoying on the Ebay “fightin’ boards”!
January 10th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Cheers Um Cara, love your input on these boards, a bit centrist really, where most of us probably are when we’re not fightin’ mad!!…
lol
I’m off to an overnight wedding (my bass player in fact) that is 3 miles back in the woods, and we have to get there by sleigh…
and yes, there will be beer involved (we’re nova scotians)…so i’ll swig an extra 6 for ya bud, eh?
January 10th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Arafat has said, and it’s the belief of ALL Palestinians, that they will NOT stop attacks on Israel until they have CONTROL of Jerusalem. So, what part of Israel’s defense is wrong? Israel removed their own citizens so these scum could take over the area without paying a single dollar, THEN they shoot 5000 missiles into Israel from private residential areas. The POPE is an ASS, and I’d like to kick him there in hopes to wake him up! The Catholic Church protected Nazi’s after the war and NOW turn against Israel? Follow the money trail with the Catholic Church, their trying to save their precious holy sites their when things escalate.
January 10th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
“I’m just saying that Israel is far from the beacon of light and freedon that Americans like to credit it with.”
The president of the Israeli supreme court is a woman. The head of the Israeli parliament is a woman. One of the two top candidates for the next PM is a woman. There are gay parades in Tel Aviv, and Haifa, and Jerusalem, and Eilat, and being openly gay is well accepted in most parts of the country.
Yes, the Israeli democracy is suffering from some problems, originating from the inability to separate religion from the state. But remember Israel is a young state, it’s only been around for 60 years. Some things just take time, including more women in the parliament.
“And like it or not, Israel may well have been a mistake…A hostile and unforgiving land that was only coveted because of bible stories and myths…”
I suggest you come visit that “mistake”. We would love to give you a ride on our camel and let you stay in our tent.
January 10th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
So I have a question for all those Jew haters and those who think they have this Gaza-Israeli figured out.
When the terrorists or the anti-American factions start setting off bombs or killing our people here in the United States whose side are you going to be on? I imagine the bad guys side since you cannot see the forest for the trees.
You all need to do a lot of research going back to day one and see the truth for what it is. Over time and history the Jews have been the most persecuted peoples who really no reason but being Jewish. In case some of you do not know this, if you look at history around the world almost every country has had Jewish settlements since the beginning of time. Without Jews there would be NO Christianity (and I am not talking about the questionable Roman Catholic religion), we would not have a lot of the things we all enjoy today.
Now speaking of Catholic Church, they need to be quiet as they have done an enormous damage throughout the years. No one really cares what the Pope, arch bishops or cardinals say. You leaders of the Catholic Church need to sweep your own doorstep as you have most complicent with the exception of Pope John Paul II, in the persecution and anti-semitism through the centuries.
You know God says several places through the Bible, I will bless those who bless you, I will curse those who curse you. You need to see what he means by this.
Lastly, if you think that lobbing rockets into Israel on a daily basis is okay then you need your head examined. Just the though of having to live through that terror each and every day is really scarry.
Hamas is the most despicable people. Anyone or any organization who submites their people to danger because they are cowards themselves. I know that the aid that is sent to Gaza is confiscated by Hamas from time to time to buy weapons and other deadly thngs. Hamas do not care about their Arab brothers & sisters (they are not Palestinians but Philistines who came from Egypt originally). No person in their right mind would defend the barbarism of Hamas and what it has done to its people. Now Hamas has subjected their people to more pain. Hopefully, Hamas can be diminished and the Arab people of Gaza can find some kind of peace. If Hamas is desimated, then the rest of the world would gladly help Gazans pick up the pieces and create a different life for them.
January 10th, 2009 at 10:43 pm
The difference between “condemning” terrorist murder and “stopping” it is the proof of the pudding…
Lee said: Firstly, Hamas is indeed a ‘terrorist’ group and the tactics it employs with rockets/bombings against everyday Israeli’s are despicable and should be condemned.
Lee,
Thank you for admitting that Hamas is a TERRORIST group and that it kills innocent Israeli civilians – both adults AND children – who have only tried to live peacefully side-by-side with Palestinians. But why do you offer only “condemnation” of Hamas’ murder rather than a call for it’s end? I would think “ending” Hamas strikes far more effective than “condemning” them! Do you presume that your “condemnation” will stop Hamas? If not, then what would you advise to actually STOP Hamas from murdering innocent Israeli children who mean Hamas no harm? If someone was shooting rockets into YOUR backyard where your children are playing would you stand by and “condemn” them – or would you attack whoever was shooting those rockets in an effort to preserve the lives of your children?
Libs need to grow wise to the fact that their “condemnation” of Hamas is not sufficient to make Hamas stop murdering Israelis. And, until Libs find a WORKABLE solution to stop Hamas’ premeditated murder of innocent civilian children – both their own by hiding amongst them in schools and hospitals AND the Israeli children they rocket from afar – I cheer the Israelis for responding in such a manner as to STOP the attacks for NOW and into the FUTURE…
January 11th, 2009 at 11:41 am
Kregg,
What you don’t seem to get is that “Lib’s” do want to ’stop Hamas’ but they also want to stop Israel doing the bad things it does as well.
The rocket attacks have made lives miserable for a subset of Israeli’s but have actually caused very few casualties.
Hamas is not a conventional army. They hide among civilians making a conventional war against them futile and inevitably the response kills large numbers of innocent people for ultimately no real purpose since Hamas is not going to be destroyed by this action (even the Israeli government admits this).
Forgive me if I happen to value human life, even if they are Arab’s which I’ve found many right-wing people seem to view as second-class citizens or worse.
But anyway, you asked how to ’stop’ Hamas, the answer is simple, you eliminate their support amongst everyday Palestinians. This military action is not cutting their support but in fact fuels hatred of Israeli’s (whom are the ones the Gazans generally blame) and thus increases support for radicals whom want to ‘hurt’ Israel versus seek peace.
I actually like Israeli’s, like Jews and certainly find them easier to relate to than Arab friends I’ve had. However, I don’t like their government which over time is so blinded by anger that they make the same mistakes time and time again in trying to solve the problems by military force.
I’ve mentioned before in these forums how you can achieve peace. Basically, Israel has to stop doing all the things which anger the Palestinians (e.g blockades, settlements, walls etc), offer carrots such as investments in Palestinians and other things which help improve their quality of life, stop thumbing their nose at the UN and seek more international support for their proposals. In turn they should also demand an end to the rocket attacks/bombings and if they continue retaliate with means designed to eliminate impact on everyday Palestinians such as using special forces incursions versus large scale military responses.
Even if they keep receiving rocket attacks, they must still hold the line and keep up the ‘carrots’ until inevitably Palestinian support for Hamas would wane and moderate voices that will agree along the lines of the Camp David accords would take over.
Thats how you stop Hamas and if you really think you have another way, please share..
January 11th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Does anyone taking up for the palestinians/hamas realize that israel had over 3000 missiles launched into their city last year?? 3000.
Does anyone care that the hamas charter calls for the complete destruction of every jew??
January 11th, 2009 at 7:20 pm
Blissful,
Who exactly is ‘taking up for hamas’? I’m not and I haven’t seen anyone either on this forum.
Also, the rocket attacks are terrible as they make many Israeli lives miserable.
However, can you actually offer a solution to this other than just cheering Israel getting some pointless ‘revenge’?
January 11th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
Everyone who says israel is in the wrong is taking up for hamas. The rocket attacks are more than horrible, they were an act of war in my opinion.
I don’t think defending your home from savages who want to eradicate your family, let’s take it a step farther, an entire race, is revenge. It is self defense.
And as I stated above, hamas doesn’t want to talk, talking won’t solve the problem. When you have a group who wants to eradicate an entire race, talking won’t help.
It didn’t work with hitler, and it won’t work now.
January 11th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
I can take it a step further. IF the obama administration sits down with Iran, who has been supplying the missiles to hamas that have until recently been send through tunnels via Egypt, they will legitimize not only iran, but hamas as well.
Not a good idea.
January 11th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
blissfulconservative,
I’m going out now, but you REALLY sound exactly like Hamas.
“My side is 100% right the other side is 100% evil, therefore, ANYTHING my side does is justified.”
That is EXACTLY what those you hate say.
January 11th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
Blissful,
I love your logic which is basically stating if you say one side is doing wrong then you are automatically stating the other side is doing right. I would love to live in your black and white world where there are only ‘good guys’ and ‘evil-doers’ and nothing in between.
Its probably not worth me trying to reason with you about ‘talking to Hamas’ but some Hamas representatives have offered ‘truces’ in the past (lookup Hudna). If you could get Hamas to provide a 10 year truce then you would effectively have a permanent peace even if technically Hamas doesn’t recognize ‘Israel’.
But even better, if you could eliminate Hamas’s powerbase then you could even negotiate with a Palestinian faction like Fatah that would recognize Israel.
January 11th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
IF the obama administration sits down with Iran, who has been supplying the missiles to hamas that have until recently been send through tunnels via Egypt, they will legitimize not only iran, but hamas as well.
Here’s one you can help me with. What does it mean to “legitimize” a country, government, or leadership? Does it mean to recognize that they exist? If so, what are we waiting for?
Let’s realize that they are real and have to be dealt with. Then let’s figure out a way to deal with them.
Where does pretending that they don’t exist get us?
January 11th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
Sorry. didn’t give proper credit…
POSTED BY BLISSFULCONSERVATIVE
Here’s one you can help me with. What does it mean to “legitimize” a country, government, or leadership? Does it mean to recognize that they exist? If so, what are we waiting for?
Let’s realize that they are real and have to be dealt with. Then let’s figure out a way to deal with them.
Where does pretending that they don’t exist get us?
POSTED BY PFKAM
JANUARY 11TH, 2009 AT 8:19 PM
January 11th, 2009 at 8:22 pm
Sitting down with a KNOWN terrorist nation to “talk” to them legitimizes their position if nothing else. European leaders have offered every prize you can think of to Iran in the hope that they will stop their nuclear program. have they? NO. They are 5 years closer to having nukes. Do you really think talking to a country whose mission in life is total destruction of israel will help things? They don’t give a flying rip what the U.S. thinks about their nuclear program.
The wall street article written by john bolton is a good one on this topic. So is the one on the link I provided below.
Maybe one way to look at it is this: we are taught that if you have a problem you talk it out. communication is the solution. in the middle east, according to experts, being empathetic and trying to think yourself so great that you can come in a talk your problems out is a sign of weakness.
http://globalpolitician.com/25372-barack-obama-middle-east
January 11th, 2009 at 8:38 pm
Lee,
As I and others have stated hamas wants to kill every jew. what part of that do you an others not get?
and yes, sometimes there is a black and a white. If you lived in deleware and the state of jersey continually bombed your state because they wanted your land, would you sit back and take it or would you defend yourself and your family??
And I find it ironic that folks are constantly wanting, sometimes demanding that israel fold and give in. The arab countries own 640 times more land than the state of israel. Mohammed taught that arabs had all the land they needed, and that israel was the rightful home to the jewish people given to them via abraham.
How about a little talk of arab countries giving in a little and providing more land to the palestinians since their plight is so bad?
January 11th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
Blissful,
If a terrorist group has real support of a significant portion of its people, then to defeat them you need to either negotiate or somehow remove the support of the people. I hate to burst your bubble but negotiating does work.. See IRA/Sinn Fein. In that case the IRA refused to ever consider the notion of a non-united Ireland yet somehow we have peace there thanks to negotiations and compromise?
On the other hand what has ignoring negotiations and resorting to military responses ever achieved?
Now as to your analogy between New Jersey and Delaware, its not Israel versus Gaza here, its Israel versus a criminal subset of Gazans. So if some criminal subset of Delawarians sent rocket attacks into New Jersey, New Jersey doesn’t have a right to just attack back Delaware as a whole including the innocent people.
Thats morally wrong and not how the ‘good-guys’ should behave.
Again, please explain how this military action is helping Israel stop Hamas and/or achieve peace? Since you believe so strongly in it, can you not explain what it is going to achieve other than short-term revenge?
January 12th, 2009 at 3:18 am
Lee,
You tell me, since talking works, the longest span of peace between israel, hamas, hezbollah, etc???
And according to my analogy between delaware and new jersey, if a criminal element in delaware was launching rockets the U.S. government would intervene. What is the palestinian government doing to STOP hamas other than blaming israel??
Until you and others open your eyes, look at what IRAN, HAMAS, HEZBOLLAH, AL Qaeda, and some muslims are saying about the jewish people, there will continue to be pity for groups who want to do the same thing hitler tried to do.
January 12th, 2009 at 7:47 am
Hey Old Lefty, when are you going to get off the fence? You sound like a moderate on the Israeli-Hamas conflict. You don’t know which way to lean.
January 12th, 2009 at 8:16 am
Willy,
That’s because it IS two sided, and I feel dreadful for BOTH sides.
I guess when BOTH sides have as much lobbying power, and money, and military might, and as much to loose….then I can see being as smug as some here and applying the same standards to both sides.
January 12th, 2009 at 8:32 am
I guess what I am saying Lefty is that Hamas is a terrorist group that intentionally targets innocent women and children who have done nothing to deserve rockets landing in their back yards, or homicide bombers (aka sucicide bombers) walking into malls and places of worship or on buses and blowing up innocents.
I cannot, in good conscience, set the same standards to both sides.
Would we in America sit idly by while Canada, for example, launched rockets into New York or Michigan or any state which borders Canada? Would you say that the standards are the same for both sides here?
January 12th, 2009 at 8:52 am
Willy, what I’m saying is would they be called a terrorist group who do all the things you say IF they had tanks, fighters and bombers AND access to military targets?
My fear is, that with enough lobbying, a ‘terrorist’ can become a ‘freedom fighter’.
Remember, the Israelis did the same thing when they only trying to carve out a place there. Don’t forget Irgun was also called a terrorist group.
What CAN you do to resist occupation?
Some would say, ‘It’s NOT occupation, and anyone who says it is, and resists is labled a terrorist.
Others would say, just be like the Tibetians, who NOBODY cares about, and suffer silently.
I think they would do better following the Ghandi model….they kicked out the British empire.
Some say you have to fight with what you have.
Your example:
“Would we in America sit idly by while Canada, for example, launched rockets into New York or Michigan or any state which borders Canada?”
I think the more accurate example is,
What if the Canadians, with superior force, pushed Americans out of the North, and said, sorry, we live here now, you have to find somewhere else to go?
Would you expect those people to say, “OK”, or resist?
Should they stop at what you call “terrorism”?
January 12th, 2009 at 9:15 am