Change Is More Than A Word
Obama has signed an order to close Gitmo in a year. In addition, military war crime trials will be reviewed, and harsh interrogation techniques will be banned.
With his action, Obama started changing how the United States prosecutes and questions al-Qaida, Taliban or other foreign fighters who pose a threat to Americans – and overhauling America’s image abroad, battered by accusations of the use of torture and the indefinite detention of suspects at the Guantanamo prison in Cuba.
“The message that we are sending the world is that the United States intends to prosecute the ongoing struggle against violence and terrorism and we are going to do so vigilantly and we are going to do so effectively and we are going to do so in a manner that is consistent with our values and our ideals,” the president said.
Here’s what else Obama has done:
- Required all U.S. personnel to follow the U.S. Army Field Manual while interrogating detainees. The manual explicitly prohibits threats, coercion, physical abuse and waterboarding, a technique that creates the sensation of drowning and has been termed a form of torture by critics.
- Directed the Justice Department to review the case of Qatar native Ali al-Marri, who is the only enemy combatant currently being held on U.S. soil. The review will look at whether al-Marri has the right to sue the government for his freedom, a right the Supreme Court already has given to Guantanamo detainees.
And there are more reversals of Bush policies, including meeting with generals to discuss speeding the process for leaving Iraq
He also signed a series of executive orders and directives intended to slow the revolving door between government service and lobbying, and ordered his administration to share information more freely with the public.
[...]
Obama called President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of Israel, King Abdullah II of Jordan and President Mahmoud Abbas of the Palestinian Authority. Obama pledged “active engagement” for a fragile cease-fire between Israel and Hamas in the Gaza Strip, aides said.
Not bad for a day’s work.
U.S. Army Field Manual? I hope that the CIA doesn’t have to follow that.
CIA: Hello Mr.Terrorist, do you want to tell me where the next bombing will be?
OKMID: NO
CIA: How about any knowledge of blowing up buildings in America
OKMID: NO
CIA: Come on, PLEASE
OKMID: NO
CIA: Well that’s all BO will let me do, sorry America.
January 22nd, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Separate man,
Of course…Why would we want to get good solid information, the way in which ALL previous interrogators have assured us we do, when we can torture, and get false, UNRELIABLE information?
Why would we want to do that?
January 22nd, 2009 at 12:52 pm
So we get no info at all, good plan. Way to keep America safe!
Wait didn’t by water torturing that one guy, we saved the lives of all thoes troups! Sounds like reliable info to me.
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:10 pm
What exactly is the reward for giving info if you play patty cake while trying to get it?
I guess everyone is living like it is SEp 10, 2000 and everything is okey dokey in the world.
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:21 pm
I guess that’s why the experts speak out AGAINST torture:
WWII veteran Nazi interrogators denounced Bush’s Torture techniques:
The group of World War II veterans kept a military code and the decorum of their generation, telling virtually no one of their top-secret work interrogating Nazi prisoners of war at Fort Hunt.
“During the many interrogations, I never laid hands on anyone,” said George Frenkel, 87. “We extracted information in a battle of the wits. I’m proud to say I never compromised my humanity.”
And,
Matthew Alexander who led an interrogations team assigned to a Special Operations task force in Iraq in 2006 said in the Wash Post,
“ The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001.”
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:28 pm
I agree that we can’t arrest and detain these guys forever. They have to have their time to determine innocence or guilt.
I don’t think that they have the same rights that I have, as a citizen. Nor do I think that they are protected under the Geneva Convention; they are not uniformed soldiers adhering to a rigorous chain of command. [Nor did their leadership sign the Convention].
With all of that said, somewhere between offering these guys a beer and a cigarette and pulling off fingernails is where we need to be. So the question is; where is that line?
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:30 pm
So MOST of our soldiers died NOT because the enemy wants to defeat them, it is because of our interrogation techniques??? YEAH RIGHT.
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:30 pm
Pino said: With all of that said, somewhere between offering these guys a beer and a cigarette and pulling off fingernails is where we need to be. So the question is; where is that line?
K: Pino, perhaps “that line” is to put them in cushy detainment until they can’t do us any harm. Seems like a pretty good solution given the alternatives…
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:35 pm
Separate says “Wait didn’t by water torturing that one guy, we saved the lives of all thoes troups!”…..You don’t even have a source for that drivel? Am I supposed to believe You? You are not credible. Prove that you do ANY research of your own.
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:37 pm
So MOST of our soldiers died NOT because the enemy wants to defeat them, it is because of our interrogation techniques??? YEAH RIGHT.
Posted by Blissful Conservative
…………………………..
#1) Take it up with the expert who said it. I believe him more than the Bush Cheerleaders.
#2) Whether or not we are even fighting “the enemy”, or the Iraqi people is up for debate.
A lot people think we turned our back on the enemy to invade Iraq.
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:42 pm
perhaps “that line”
I’m not sure where the line is. But I don’t think that we can just hold these guys forever. Nor do I think that we should just sit them down and ask them politely for information.
My guess; we try them in military tribunal. Certainly in places where the burden of proof is not the same as required of US Citizens.
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Bliss, Every thing is NOT OK in the world. Now we have the mandate to fix things. Just continue your fear mongering. You are part of the problem. The adults are in charge now. Come out from under your bed once in awhile and check on us. OK?
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Just continue your fear mongering. You are part of the problem. The adults are in charge now. Come out from under your bed once in awhile and check on us.
Nice Change. Unity in Action.
Awesome.
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Pino said: I’m not sure where the line is. But I don’t think that we can just hold these guys forever. Nor do I think that we should just sit them down and ask them politely for information.
K: Pino, I doubt that we intend to. But, just as in a hockey game where one player pins another to the boards to take him out of the play, we are simply doing the same with these guys. Despite the fact that some people’s hearts bleed for ‘their freedoms’ and ‘rights’ maybe these warriors could have solved their own problems by not acting or plotting and acting in any way toward the downfall of the US.
P: My guess; we try them in military tribunal. Certainly in places where the burden of proof is not the same as required of US Citizens.
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:54 pm
Pino,
Four military tribunal prosecutors have resigned in disgust. But that means nothing to you. You are scared of getting killed by terrorists? You got a better chance of getting hit by lightning.
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:54 pm
You got a better chance of getting hit by lightning.
And what are the chances that someone gets hit by lightning? I guess just because it doesn’t impact you personally, it’s okay just to let these guys roam free? Maybe here, in the good ‘ol USofA?
January 22nd, 2009 at 2:01 pm
maybe these warriors could have solved their own problems by not acting or plotting and acting in any way toward the downfall of the US.
I agree with you. My point is this: Just try ‘em and imprison ‘em. I think everybody would be down with that.
January 22nd, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Jeffro said: You are scared of getting killed by terrorists? You got a better chance of getting hit by lightning.
K: Jeffro, 756 people died in the US between 1990 and 2003. I’m not willing to take the chance that terrorists would kill this many US citizens so agree with Pino and we cannot just let them go…
January 22nd, 2009 at 2:05 pm
Pino said: maybe these warriors could have solved their own problems by not acting or plotting and acting in any way toward the downfall of the US.
P: I agree with you. My point is this: Just try ‘em and imprison ‘em. I think everybody would be down with that.
K: Pino, I still believe the reason that we DON’T put them up before a military tribunal – which, BTW could have them shot if found guilty of violating the rules of warfare if I recall correctly – is that we don’t want to reveal our methods of catching them. The minute such news hits the NY Times (the terrorists paper of choice ;-) ) the uncaught would change tactics and become harder to capture. I say let them wait out the duration and THEN try them…
January 22nd, 2009 at 2:08 pm
Pino,We got problems in this country that we should discuss. How do you feel about your guy not letting us know where the first TARP installment of 350 Billion went? And you supported these guys! Pathetic.
January 22nd, 2009 at 2:13 pm
“”Just try ‘em and imprison ‘em. I think everybody would be down with that.”"
Sure, but not by military tribunals, the judges which are not appointed for life, and have to rely on “pleasing” their superiors for re-nomination.
And also that the ones found innocent, where there is no evidence, or the evidence is contridictory, such as 15-year-old Kadhr (at the time, he’s 22 now)…where the miltary first reported that someone else threw the grenade, then changed their mind after it was discovered that a US soldier had shot him in the back.
Oops, we better change our story!
And Kadhr was tortured by goons in Guantanimo Bay, and threatened with rape, shackled in positions of “little-ease” until he shat himself, kept awake for days at a time, the list goes on.
Shame on the US gov’t for allowing this treatment of a child soldier, against every concept of honorable warfare.
January 22nd, 2009 at 2:31 pm
“”I say let them wait out the duration and THEN try them…”"
And when exactly do you predict that to be?
The end of a “war” on a tactic that has been around for eons?
Anyway, thank the gods that Obama is in!
!
WOOHOO
January 22nd, 2009 at 2:35 pm
“to take him out of the play, we are simply doing the same with these guys. Despite the fact that some people’s hearts bleed for ‘their freedoms’ and ‘rights’ maybe these warriors could have solved their own problems by not acting or plotting and acting in any way toward the downfall of the US.”
SOME of those warriors were falsely imprisoned, completely innocent. And yes, those are the ones my heart bleeds for.
January 22nd, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Pino,
With all of that said, somewhere between offering these guys a beer and a cigarette and pulling off fingernails is where we need to be. So the question is; where is that line?
Yep. I don’t see why so many seem to think the options are to let them rot in detention until we have stopped everybody on earth from engaging in a tactic (a tactic that will always be used by those with orders of magnitude of power less than those they fight) or to put them all next door to one of us filthy liberals.
Honestly, I would have thought your above statement to be obvious to all, and not something one would even need to state, but never let it be said that I don’t overestimate some people.
January 22nd, 2009 at 3:01 pm
It is a great image on this post. Obama behind that desk in the Oval Office. It has been a long time coming that someone who I argee with politically is in the White House. I am thankful to live in democracy.
January 22nd, 2009 at 3:02 pm
“What exactly is the reward for giving info if you play patty cake while trying to get it? I guess everyone is living like it is SEp 10, 2000 and everything is okey dokey in the world.
Posted by Blissful Conservative”
What is the reward for giving info if your captors are going to skin you like a potato anyway. You obviously fail to understand that everytime we torture anyone we risk another, much larger, 9-11. I am fully aware of the date. But I refuse to become a frightened little lamb because some crazies took a piece of our country eight years ago. We don’t live in a safe world but GEORGE W. BUSH thought we did prior to 9-11. He did nothing to stop or attempt to prevent the attacks but he still has the arrogance to claim that he kept this country safe.
Playing patty-cake or going back to what we have done for decades prior to the Bush admin. Patty-cake would be if we talked for awhile and let them go if they asked. Doing an interrogation where you don’t draw blood or torture someone is not ‘patty-cake’ and your comments paint you as a violent and heartless human being. Obama gets it as does most of America. What exactly is your problem in understanding here? The more we torture the more we die, the less we torture the more we live.
January 22nd, 2009 at 3:10 pm
1. I am fully aware of the date. But I refuse to become a frightened little lamb because some crazies took a piece of our country eight years ago
I bet you don’t feel the need to arm yourself for a camping trip either. It would seem if we were successful the past half dozen years in our ‘war on terror’ our citizens would be a whole lot less terrified, eh?
Be glad America voted for a new approach.
January 22nd, 2009 at 3:16 pm
As much as I don’t want to admit it so as to agree with a lot of you libs (and I always mean that as a term of endearment: call me a con), I don’t like the idea of having people just sitting in jail in Gitmo, US citizens or not. We need to do something with them. Try them, convict them if they’re guilty, execute them or give them life terms. Fair military tribunals. But do something.
I don’t think there necessarily should have been a *rush* to prosecute, but the old saying “justice delayed is justice denied” is true even for ostensible terrorists. As human beings under our Constitution they deserve that much. FNC’s Judge Napolitano is correct in that regard.
January 22nd, 2009 at 3:23 pm
“What exactly is the reward for giving info if you play patty cake while trying to get it?”
Start with something simple: “The Psychology of Interrogations, Confessions and Testimony,” by Gudjonsson, Wiley & Sons 1992.
What most of us know about the science of modern interrogation is pure television. And all the big mouths on TV who want to see people smacked in the head and shock prods on their testicles don’t really know anything about anything.
January 22nd, 2009 at 3:52 pm
Whoa, this discussion today is impressively civilized. Unity is prevailent at Alan’s today! Good sign. Congrats to everyone for being so agreeable today. It puts me in a good mood.
January 22nd, 2009 at 4:32 pm
When George Bush was president, we were appalled at his failings. His failing policies, his poor decision making, and his indifference to it all. We watched day after day as he failed to improve this country.
But through all of it, we never prayed for his failure or hoped that he would fail. We always hoped for the day he would wake up and get it right.
Now there are those who call for people to pray that Barak Obama will fail, or that his policies will fail. If we had done that with respect to George Bush, we would have been labeled as unpatriotic.
Isn’t it unpatriotic to pray for the new president to fail?
January 22nd, 2009 at 5:02 pm
Jeffro,
You do realize that YOUR guy voted in favor of the first bailout and now wants another? You do realize that dems in congress who had the majority also voted for the first bailout, right? And you do realize that YOUR guy Frank gave a bank in massachusetts 12 million dollars because they were a minority bank and it would be a social disaster to let them fail. Guess what they bought their execs?? A Porsche.
I don’t live in fear anymore than any other american. AFter 9/11 I got up and went about my life as normally as possible. Too bad so many families lost loved ones on that day, they will never have a normal life again.
January 22nd, 2009 at 5:03 pm
I guess being vigilant and protecting yourself or having the ability to protect yourself is living in fear.
Yeah. let’s disarm the military and all our citizens. That will work.
peace and harmony hope and love. That’s all you need.
January 22nd, 2009 at 5:06 pm
ERIC G
As far as skinning folks like a potato, ask the civilian american contractors how that felt right before they were burned and hung from a bridge in Iraq. maybe they can fill you in on that one.
January 22nd, 2009 at 5:07 pm
Bliss,
let’s disarm the military and all our citizens. That will work.
Whoa there! Let’s not disarm the military! I will partially support you though. I agree it is ridiculous that the US is responsible for almost half of military spend worldwide, let’s do cut the military for sure.
But disarm? I really don’t think that would be wise.
peace and harmony hope and love. That’s all you need.
I’m with you sister, that’s a noble goal. (I also want a cheeseburger, however)
January 22nd, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Seems to me like a lot of folks are thinking of torture as punishment. The problem is these folks haven’t even been convicted of a crime.
Of course, we should never use torture as punishment (!) but if that is the argument, it is a separate one from the situation we have here.
If you want to torture murderers_ that’s one one issue. If you want to torture people who may or may NOT be murderers, that’s a whole different issue.
Surely you conservatives can see the difference, right?
(Woohoo, President Obama! Getting right to work!)
January 22nd, 2009 at 5:14 pm
Heya Sky,
It’s creepy how many of our fellow Americans seem to be pro torture, isn’t it? It’s like they think life is a episode of 24 or something.
But the times, they are a changing!
Woo hoo!!!
January 22nd, 2009 at 5:17 pm
Yeah. Cut the military so they are spread more thinly than they already are. Disarm the entire military, the entire country. If we don’t have weapons we can’t wage war. If we can’t wage war, everyone will leave us alone and we will live in sunlight and peace. Everyone will like us for sure then.
January 22nd, 2009 at 5:18 pm
Um Cara:
*Dancing in the streets*
I can’t believe the clouds have finally parted. Like Jeffro said: the adults are finally in charge. No kidding. This country has been very “Lord of the Flies” lately.
January 22nd, 2009 at 5:22 pm
Yeah. Cut the military so they are spread more thinly than they already are. Disarm the entire military, the entire country.
I appreciate the sentiment, Bliss – but I really do think disarming the entire military is too much. I’m sure your heart is in the right place, but the reality is we still need a military.
Maybe cut it in half? Surely 1/4 of world military spend is enough for little ‘ol us? We don’t have to be spread so thin, we could get out of quite a few places where we currently have bases.
If we don’t have weapons we can’t wage war. If we can’t wage war, everyone will leave us alone and we will live in sunlight and peace. Everyone will like us for sure then.
Please excuse me for saying this Bliss, because, honestly – I do think your heart is in the right place, but that view is a bit naive.
January 22nd, 2009 at 5:26 pm
Well, maybe Blissful Conservative has a point, you know? I mean, if everyone everywhere laid down their weapons and beat their tanks into tractors, maybe we could all live in sunshine and harmony.
;)
January 22nd, 2009 at 5:30 pm
Bliss,
You do know that the US of A spends half of all the military money spent in the world, right? Half. In the WHOLE world. You still want to spend more? No. We will NOT disarm our military. Ever. Ever. Our military spending though, even if you don’t agree, in my opinion is pretty excessive. It IS very lucrative for many private companiest though. Also, why are you so eager to wage war? The world does not need war. We need peace. Take it easy Bliss. We will defend ourselves when we need to, but waging random wars is no good.
January 22nd, 2009 at 5:31 pm
Bliss said: You do realize that YOUR guy voted in favor of the first bailout and now wants another?
Umm, so did your guy.
January 22nd, 2009 at 5:37 pm
Wanna know how I really feel? We were underequipped and unprepared for the war in iraq and afghanistan. Part of the reason stems from the cuts in the military during the clinton years.
If we want to remain a superpower on the world stage we shouldn’t cut military spending. Freeze government pay, take away some perks that our beloved representatives enjoy. pay them based on performance.
And it doesn’t matter what we do. There are groups, countries, leaders, people who will hate us no matter what. It is bullcrap to blame all the hate toward us on the last 8 years. We were hated before he came into office, and we will be hated with obama in office.
I posted on another topic about iranians burning obama’s picture in the streets.
If you want the fundamentalists in the muslim world to love and adore the U.S., the only way that will be accomplished is by helping them defeat israel all the while turing over all the zionists living here in the U.S.
January 22nd, 2009 at 5:41 pm
vegas,
my whole point in pointing out that HIS guy voted for the bailout was him saying MY guy didn’t watch where the money went. HELLO?? There is blame on both sides and I am really sick of some dems blaming only the republicans.
If you are EVER going to have unity, then both sides have to admit mistakes and own up to them. And right now I am still seeing a deep, insane hatred of bush and everything conservative.
January 22nd, 2009 at 5:43 pm
And right now I am still seeing a deep, insane hatred of bush and everything conservative.
Bush who? And conservative? You mean that quaint political ideology that was voted down a couple months ago?
Why would I hate something so irrelevant?
Wooo Hooo!!!
We have a president who doesn’t think the anger of the rest of the world is a badge of honor!
Expats the world over are rejoicing, I assure you.
*Dancing with Sky and Diego and Blissful*
January 22nd, 2009 at 5:47 pm
UM CARA, I do like your style. :)
I vow to try to adopt it for myself.
January 22nd, 2009 at 5:50 pm
I don’t think anyone believed it was a badge of honor. But love him or hate him, George Bush did what he thought was best to keep this country safe. And we have been for the past 7 years.
“why would I hate something so irrelevant?”
58 million americans are very relevant, and just as important as any liberal.
January 22nd, 2009 at 5:52 pm
Bliss said: Wanna know how I really feel? We were underequipped and unprepared for the war in iraq and afghanistan.
We were not underequipped. We WERE unprepared. The strategy was flawed. Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld did not listen to Gen. Shinseki and then it got pretty ugly in Iraq. When they finally agreed that we DID need more troops in there (the so-called surge), that’s when we began to win the war. If those three would have listened to Shinseki in the first place it would have been better earlier.
Bliss: If you are EVER going to have unity, then both sides have to admit mistakes and own up to them.
I have stated and restated repeatedly here that not one side is perfect. Both sides have radicals, but I didn’t think you as a radical, Bliss. Do not join the radicals. It seems you’re leaning in that direction. The best thing you can do is ignore those people, and somehow I’m starting to feel inclined to ignore you.
January 22nd, 2009 at 5:53 pm
I’ll use liberal logic about abortion on torture: I’m pro-choice concerning torture. I am personally against it (religious belief) but I have no problem with others making a choice to do it. Human rights, you say? To that I say: PRO-CHOICE! PRO-CHOICE! CHOICE! CHOICE! Don’t take away our right to choose!!
Actually I’m not necessarily for torture…perhaps in extreme cases…but I enjoyed being illogical there, just like half the country on the abortion debate.
January 22nd, 2009 at 5:53 pm
vegas,
If being radical means not changing my beliefs to suit others, then yes I am radical. If it means that I love my country and believe that the office of the president should be respected no matter who is in there, then yes I am radical.
And that is why I have a BIG problem with folks making some of the comments they do.
January 22nd, 2009 at 5:56 pm
58 million americans are very relevant, and just as important as any liberal.
Lighten up, Bliss – join the dancing
*Dancing with Flap, Bliss, Diego, Lily, Sky*
January 22nd, 2009 at 5:57 pm
It’s so funny, the old, Clinton’s fault chestnut.
Funny how they touted such success in Afganistan, never gave Clinton credit for leaving them a great military).
Meanwhile, one of the most basic tenents of the PNAC, was that we can fight wars in multiple theaters with few troops, as long as we have our razzle dazzle weapons.
Nobody said they want the fundamentalists in the muslim world to love and adore the U.S, only that the way to defeat them is to get good reliable intel on them, get the icons like bin Ladin, and not to prop up the dictators who pander to them, and fund them.
January 22nd, 2009 at 6:01 pm
Bliss,
No, being radical DOES NOT mean changing your beliefs to suit others. I haven’t done so. I also love my country and believe that the office of the President should be respected no matter who is in there, but I am still not a radical. The radical and extremists are only the ones that begin to put so much passion and anger in order to support their views that they just shut everyone with an opposing view out and allow themselves to become ingnorantly closed-minded.
January 22nd, 2009 at 6:01 pm
*singing*
“we shall overco-ome”… oh wait, we already DID!!!!
Come on, Blissful, join the singing: “This land is your land / this land is my land…”
January 22nd, 2009 at 6:02 pm
everybody!
January 22nd, 2009 at 6:03 pm
Vegas
There are some like like on the right and some like that on the left.
January 22nd, 2009 at 6:05 pm
As long as we are talking about radicals:
“The radical of one century is the conservative of the next. The radical invents the views. When he has worn them out, the conservative adopts them.”
Mark Twain
January 22nd, 2009 at 6:07 pm
And by the way. Yes, some of our troops were very underequipped for the afghan/iraq war. Their humvees didn’t have proper armor, many soldiers didn’t have proper gear, etc.
January 22nd, 2009 at 6:07 pm
Bliss said: There are some like like on the right and some like that on the left.
Agreed. I stated the same thing earlier and suggested you try and ignore those people.
Bliss: And by the way. Yes, some of our troops were very underequipped for the afghan/iraq war. Their humvees didn’t have proper armor, many soldiers didn’t have proper gear, etc.
And yet we still do 50% of ALL military spending on Earth.
Old quoted Twain: “The radical of one century is the conservative of the next. The radical invents the views. When he has worn them out, the conservative adopts them.”
I wish I could switch the word radical in this statement with liberal. LOL.
January 22nd, 2009 at 6:16 pm
Not enough armor for vehicles? Too few troops? Forced duty extensions? “You go to war with the Army you have,” he told complaining soldiers testily in Kuwait Wednesday, “not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time.” Yes, but Rumsfeld himself dealt this hand.
January 22nd, 2009 at 6:48 pm
I’ll say again, when President Obama was sworn in it brought tears to the eyes of my cold, uncaring, conservative heart.
I know a lot of people are ecstatic about him and what he can bring to us as a nation. I’m serious about this: I truly, truly, truly hope he is everything that you all want him to be or believe that he is. He may be that, and I hope he is!
This IS the greatest country in the world. That’s all I can say yet again. President Obama’s election proves that despite some evils in our past, we got past many of them. We are far from perfect but still standing above the rest…a shining city on a hill.
January 22nd, 2009 at 7:00 pm
Hatred for Pres. Bush is mostly unwarranted. I don’t believe he was ‘evil’ and I think you should always be careful of using the term ‘hate/hatred’ as it has a particularly dark connotation.
However, while you should always respect the office itself, the person occupying the office has to earn respect through their actions. Unfortunately, for many liberals like myself, Pres. Bush did little to earn my respect because of not only his policies but moreover his poor leadership, poor oratory skills, poor judgements, and propensity for cronyism.
Hence even though it is right not to fully judge his impact in office until a few years have passed, it is not ‘insane’ why folks like myself harbor deep resentment to his time in office versus even his father or Pres. Reagan.
January 22nd, 2009 at 7:03 pm
“…data compiled by the RAND Corporation show that the global rate of terrorism, as measured by the number of people killed per year, increased by almost fivefold during the Bush presidency. And according to the government’s own terrorism statistics, 2007 was the worst year ever, with over 22,000 people killed worldwide. Does the President consider that record a success?”
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/White_House_Increase_in_terror_attacks_0110.html
January 22nd, 2009 at 7:07 pm
We all can appreciate how amazing it is that this most awesome power is transfered peacfully, time after time.
January 22nd, 2009 at 7:18 pm
The message we are sending to the world is that if they put enough pressure on the US we will fold under that pressure and do their will.
Pres. Bush, whether you liked him or not, stood by his convictions and principles and was willing to take the heat. He was a very good wartime President.
January 22nd, 2009 at 7:53 pm
He was a very good wartime President.
Maybe that’s why he kept getting us into them?
January 22nd, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Abraham Lincoln, Woodrow Wilson, FDR, Lyndon Johnson, Ronald Reagan, George #1, Bill Clinton, and George #2 all were President when we got involved in a war, conflict, etc.
January 22nd, 2009 at 8:07 pm
Willy,
Firstly, how do you arrive at the conclusion that “The message we are sending to the world is that if they put enough pressure on the US we will fold under that pressure and do their will.” ? I don’t agree but I’m curious to know why you think this?
Secondly, I’d also beg to differ about your summary of Pres. Bush . Unless his principles include that ‘torturing people is ok’, I’d say at the very least he ‘compromised’ some of his principles versus stood by them. Also, taking the heat means admitting your mistakes.. a common theme of his presidency was he failed to do this, until poignantly as he was leaving office.
To be honest, although there are recognized ways of determining ‘good leaders’ and ‘good military leaders’, I think the concept of a ‘good wartime leader’ is somewhat subjective. Therefore, I’d like to state he was a bad wartime leader as well, but being fair, I think I couldn’t help myself from defining one by using characteristics where Pres. Bush ‘is not so strong’.
I would state he at least started off well and initially gave a stirring speech at Ground Zero after 9/11 but in my opinion he went completely downhill after that..
January 22nd, 2009 at 8:51 pm
The main failure,Bush had our nation in his hands and unity after 9/11. Bush fumble the ball going into Iraq. Spying on us and abuse of power. He led us into a recession into Fannie and Freddie. The failure of keeping WALL STREET SOBER and leeting the banks run amok.
January 23rd, 2009 at 12:36 am
Frosty said: Shame on the US gov’t for allowing this treatment of a child soldier, against every concept of honorable warfare.
K: And, of course flying plane loads of civilians into civilian targets of opportunity IS a concept of ‘honorable warfare’?
January 23rd, 2009 at 1:55 am
I blame going to war againist Iraq. We are in a recession because of it.
January 23rd, 2009 at 2:17 am
Kregg,
I don’t know how old you are, but I can remember during the Vietnam war, the North Vietnamese would strap explosives to children and send them into an American camp and blow up our troops.
Our soldiers did not know who the next child would be with explosives strapped on him. So, unfortunately some of those children were killed by our soldiers. The Left used that as propaganda to demonize our troops and called them baby killers.
Frosty’s statement brings back those memories of blaming America and our soldiers while giving a pass to the enemy.
January 23rd, 2009 at 9:08 am
Lee,
First, in every story about Gitmo it is always the same. We have to close Guantanamo Bay because the EU and the rest of the world looks at the US as a tarnished nation. It is a black mark on the US says Europe. The US is torturing the prisoners says the world. The US standing in the world is brused. You see, we are more concerned about what the world thinks of us than we are of keeping America and our soldier over in Iraq and Afghanistan safe from the terrorist there and in Gitmo.
Ok, second. I don’t believe waterboarding is necessarily torture. It is an effective measure to withdraw information that will aid us in fighting the terorists and saving lives.
Taking the heat. I meant that he withstood vicious attacks from the left in this country. Not only from private citizens but from members of Congress. They called Pres. Bush “Hitler”, “liar”, “incompetant”, “buffoon”, and Harry Reid said, while our troops were fighting, “this war is lost.” These are supposed to be our leaders and they acted like a bunch of jackasses. Our own leaders cannot even debate this war in a civil manner. If you ask me Harry Reid and co. are the buffoons.
Pres. Bush was a good wartime leader because he kept our nation safe since the 9/11 attacks. He let the Generals run the war but kept very close contact with them while they devised strategy. He changed strategy when the old didn’t work and divised the surge strategy which led to winning in Iraq. And he showed great honor and respect to each and every member of our military.
January 23rd, 2009 at 9:23 am
He let the Generals run the war but kept very close contact with them while they devised strategy. He changed strategy when the old didn’t work and divised the surge strategy which led to winning in Iraq.
Posted by Willy,
Actually he disregarded there advice, went in with his own strategy, and after few years of that not working implemented there original plan.
January 23rd, 2009 at 9:29 am
Man if I could every us the correct there, their it would be a miracle.
January 23rd, 2009 at 9:30 am
Their, their Placefield. Not erer body are a English major.
January 23rd, 2009 at 9:36 am
If it were not for spell check I would look like a complete chuckle head. Guess I still do sometimes.
January 23rd, 2009 at 9:41 am
Awww Placefield, we all have some trouble spelling at times. Heck, just blame it on your keyboard. That is what I do. It makes me feel better anywho. lol
What is a chuckle head? I have heard of knuckle head before.
January 23rd, 2009 at 9:46 am
Hi every1,not a English and spelling major myself. Anyway,close GITMO. Yes,it,s a black eye on our nation. My beef is,Bush/Cheney shouted out to the world what we where doing their. I served in the Navy and we are at war. I have no beef what we did at GITMO. That,s top secert information and no information from their should have been leaked.
January 23rd, 2009 at 9:47 am
I have to go right now. You have a good day.
January 23rd, 2009 at 9:48 am
Placefield that nudge you felt was me before you posted… to steal a line from Animal House, “forget it, hes rollin”
January 23rd, 2009 at 9:48 am
Willy,
It is a term that I picked up from a project manager I work with. Funny though I was actualy able to find a definition on line.
chuck·le·head
n. Informal
A stupid, gauche person; a blockhead.
January 23rd, 2009 at 9:52 am
Hooray, here we go along the path of regaining the moral high ground. Here is where we begin leading the way instead of just bullying. With leadership that reflects a regard for humankind and international law may help us to regain a standing abroad that more befits a superpower. Go Obama Go!!!
January 23rd, 2009 at 10:55 am
I have a solution,since we have open borders anyway, let’s just send boats to where all the terrorists are and bring them to the U. S. and let the Liberals talk them to death. Theirs, that is.
January 23rd, 2009 at 11:48 am
“”Pres. Bush was a good wartime leader because he kept our nation safe since the 9/11 attacks.”"
How do you know you safe? perhaps an attack is being planned right now, and has been for several years, in order to further divide your nation?
After all, and attack this summer would naturally (and stupidly) be blamed on Obama by 49% of Yanks, and Bush by the other 49%…(the 2% would be smart enought to realize you’re being ‘played’!).
If you were a terrorist, perhaps you would wait…
It could cause a civil war in the US, it really could.
..and so the ‘terrorists’ win!
What happened to ‘undivisible’ and ‘united we stand’?
Is that just more partiotic hooey, or will the US actually come togther under this administration? At least for a trial period (Bush had 90%)…
January 23rd, 2009 at 2:23 pm
If this forum is any indication of US division, lol, I think you better start preparing now for civil war!
signed,
one of my friends
January 23rd, 2009 at 2:26 pm
“” Not erer body are a English major.”"
No suh, but VD is a disease of the privates, and we’s corporals!
January 23rd, 2009 at 2:28 pm
Hey ya’ll. Lovin’ the news reporting that Gitmo prisoner, now released, is a leader in Al Qaeda. Awesome.
Now many of these guys do the Dems wanna let go?
January 23rd, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Yeah Pino go figure, I guess the torture didnt stick or did it?
January 23rd, 2009 at 2:47 pm
What we should do is give these guys Constitutional rights [cause they are citizens, right?]. Offer them free defense lawyers at my expense, I say my because “our expense would be incorrect, seeing as that under Obama more than 50% of America wouldn’t pay Federal taxes] and then force us to pay for a trial in American courts.
How sweet it is.
January 23rd, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Why was the Bible not used in the second time????
January 23rd, 2009 at 3:21 pm
“”Now many of these guys do the Dems wanna let go?”"
All the ones that are not convicted, thanks.
Imagine the nerve of someone turtured by the US, actually learning to ‘hate’ the US?
Your little example or recidivism pales to your own failed penal system, are you as critical of that?
The ‘founding fathers’ are spinning in their graves, for they fought for freedom from tyranny and injustice…they did not say ‘fight fire with fire’, or ‘eye for an eye until the whole world’s blind’…
January 23rd, 2009 at 3:37 pm
“”Why was the Bible not used in the second time????”"
The ‘christian holy book’, the bible, is not necessary to the oath, it’s an old tradition.
And a few of your presidents used alternatives, btw,…I’m too lazy to continue teaching ‘civeics and ‘histroy’ to un-read Yanks, but at l;east one of your prez’s swore in on a book of US civil laws…
…sounds like a better idea to me…
January 23rd, 2009 at 3:40 pm
..or speeling too, I guess..
January 23rd, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Why was the Bible not used in the second time????
Posted by spamalot
………………………………………….
You better ask Chief Justice John Roberts.
January 23rd, 2009 at 3:43 pm
News Flash Frosty…..These people HATED US before there was any myth about torture in Gitmo. They hate anyone who is not of the Islam faith. At least many of them do.
Did our Founding Fathers fight for abortion rights, government run health care, medicare, medicaid, food stamps, the fairness doctrine, subsidies out the wazoo, Constitutional rights for our enemies, homosexual marriage, grouping different people into different groups to claim victim rights, the eradication of faith from our society, etc.?
Yea, I’d say they are turning over in their graves.
January 23rd, 2009 at 3:47 pm
Eheheheheh. “…bring them to the U. S. and let the Liberals talk them to death.” Eheheheheh. Stupid.
January 23rd, 2009 at 3:51 pm
Why, in general, does everyone talk about what the ‘founding fathers’ want?
They can’t vote anymore.
January 23rd, 2009 at 3:55 pm
From the start of the cold war, we have supported fundamentalist Islam, starting with the Muslim Brotherhood, because, ‘communism’ is antithetical to their banking system, and Nassar (who was a nationalist, was seen as an infidel by the very few fundamentalists at the time, and as a threat to the control of the Suez canal, by the British.)
Then support of the Saudis, because THEY were easy to do business with, while they pour money into radical madrassas,all over the world, and are basically seen as hypocrits proped up by the US by their own people.
Then on to Afganistan where we armed every zealot with stinger missiles and taught them they could bring down a super power……
We imbued them with the same feeling we imagine that Crusaders must have had.
So that in the late 1980s, Pakistani President Benazir Bhutto, tells President George H. W. Bush, “You are creating a Jihadist Frankenstein.” However, the warning goes unheeded.”
THEN, when Sadaam, who we also supported, invades Kuwait, and Osama offers his Mujahidine to repel the infidel, Sadaam, the corrupt Saudis pat him on the head and tell him, it’s OK, we’ve got the Americans here.
Then, when they morph into al Qaeda, and everyone is suprised and says “they hate us for our freedom”. So we can do it again, and again be suprised.
January 23rd, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Willy,
Firstly, thankyou for clarifying some of your positions. I would like to explain why I feel you are wrong:
1) The reasons/pressure to close Gitmo isn’t simply because other nations think it makes the US a ‘tarnished nation’. Instead, what we’re doing there is immoral in of itself _and_ other civilized nations just happen to know this.
I dispute this notion that having the detainees at Gitmo ‘keeps soldiers safe’. Firstly, you are making the sweeping assumption that all detainees are guilty of being enemy combatants. Secondly, if they are guilty then put them in a US military prison where they can be treated humanely. If not, release them, if necessary in the US, and use the FBI/CIA to keep track of them and make sure they don’t harm any citizens and/or gain intelligence on Al Qaeda if they plan to do so.
Waterboarding is torture. It is the process of artificially ‘drowning’ someone until they seek the ‘drowning’ to stop. I think a lot of folks on the right really don’t understand the process and think
its like being forced to ‘drink a little water’ or
its like a ‘dunk in the water’.
It is a terrifying experience that usually takes
only 10-15 seconds to make someone ‘break’. The thing I roll my eyes at the most though is the way people who support this state simply ‘I think waterboarding is not torture’ but almost never qualify the statement as to why they feel its the case. In fact, the best I’ve seen from a right-wing poster on this is to state something like ‘Waterboarding is not torture because I don’t think it meets the criteria for torture’..
Utterly irrational and a state of denial..
As for the criticism of the war. Well firstly, don’t you agree that we now know we went to war in Iraq under completely false pretences (i.e no WMD’s and no relation to Al Qaeda/terrorism) ? This is not meant to be China, we’re supposed to be allowed to challenge our leaders when we don’t agree with their actions..
And finally my favorite right-wing soundbite, the ‘He’s kept us safe’ mantra. No.. we’re not safe and have not been ’safe’. At best, I’ll accept that Pres. Bush kept us ’safer’.
When you explore this concept objectively, you find that the most important thing Bush did was within the Patriot Act he amended FISA (which btw was introduced by the oft-maligned Carter administration) to monitor overseas communications by terrorists that were not necessarily supported by other nations (as the original FISA had specified).
Another major act was the stricter transportation regulations and formation of the TSA.
On the other hand, our borders are still wide-open, our customs inspections woefully inadequate, the US now has a reputation for torture and ill-treatment, and in addition thanks to the consistently aggressive ‘bring it on’ rhetoric, our executive branch has even encouraged terrorist nuts to rally and attack the US.
So ’safe?’ no.. ’safer?’ maybe, but we could have done better.
January 23rd, 2009 at 6:50 pm
Sorry about the long post.. Got carried away there..
January 23rd, 2009 at 6:51 pm
Lee,
You have a point. We are safer, not safe. Our boarders are to wide open. What exactly to do about it is still up for debate.
I don’t think we went to war in Iraq under false pretenses. All intelligence reports said he had WMD’s. Members of the Senate saw the reports before voting to authorize force. Pres. Clinton said the he had WMD’s. Were mistakes made? Sure. But I don’t believe any US President would intentionally get us into a war for personal reasons. And, yes we are allowed to challenge our leaders whenever we don’t agree with their decisions. We should challenge them. That is our responsibility.
If waterboarding only takes 10-15 seconds to work then that is a very effective way to break an enemy combatant. This is a very serious thing called war. You need to put the fear of God into the enemies heart. You need to break their spirit and overwhelm them with force and tactics. You need to use tactics such as waterboarding at times to break these people. We don’t let them drown. We don’t kill them after we get the info we need. Our enemy, the terrorist, would get the info through their techniques, which is usually very serious torture, then behead the prisoner.
Finally, what is immoral about what we are doing at Gitmo? They have real nice cells, their religious traditions are respected, they get three squares a day of the food they normally eat, they get exercise daily, have games to play, flush toilets, and privacy. Doesn’t sound immoral to me.
January 23rd, 2009 at 7:11 pm
Willy,
Our enemy, the terrorist, would get the info through their techniques, which is usually very serious torture, then behead the prisoner.
Some of us Americans think our standards should be set by our own laws, ethics, and morals – not just be satisfied that they are somewhat better than our enemy’s.
January 23rd, 2009 at 7:23 pm
Cara,
War is no game. It is very serious business, if I may use that term. But as Lee said, if waterboarding only takes 10-15 seconds and we break the prisoner and he spills his guts then I say we use it. You have to show the enemy we are serious and will come and capture or kill you. I do not believe we have lowered our own laws, ethics, and morals.
January 23rd, 2009 at 7:30 pm
if waterboarding only takes 10-15 seconds and we break the prisoner and he spills his guts then I say we use it.
It would almost certainly break me, I’d tell ‘em whatever they needed to hear to make ‘em stop, true or not. Hopefully the terrorists are more ethical than me, and only tell the truth under torture.
I do not believe we have lowered our own laws, ethics, and morals.
Sure we have. Waterboarding is a good example. Previously, we prosecuted those who did it, then recently we had a VP who authorized it, and of course he now deserves to be investigated, prosecuted, and punished for doing so – though he certainly does not deserve to be waterboarded.
Hopefully we are once again better than that.
January 23rd, 2009 at 7:36 pm
So, I’ll ask you this question Cara. I have asked it before with no luck.
How do we extract information from our enemies?
January 23rd, 2009 at 7:42 pm
Willy said: “All intelligence reports said he had WMD’s.”
With all due respect to W., there should never be any room for mistakes when it comes to war because as Willy said, “war is no game.” I understand that some people think, “okay, it was a mistake.” That thought is never going to justify ANY American’s death. Could we have waited a bit longer and made sure that the Intel was correct? Yes. Waging war should be avoided at ALL costs.
January 23rd, 2009 at 7:42 pm
How do we extract information from our enemies?
The way we always have, I suppose. We have managed to conduct war without the use of torture for a long time. Obviously there were always individual cases where some sadist or soldier under great stress committed individual acts or torture, but never in recent history did we have it sanctioned from the top.
I know 9/11 changed many things, but I sure hope it didn’t change us into the kind of country that sanctions torture. Actually, I guess it did – I just hope we are able to change back into a country that does not sanction torture.
January 23rd, 2009 at 7:48 pm
How did we extract information during WWII?
January 23rd, 2009 at 8:00 pm
How did we extract information during WWII?
I guess I don’t know for sure, I hope not. I googled it to see what Mr. Internet said, and I found this:
So, supposedly not. Do you know otherwise?
January 23rd, 2009 at 8:04 pm
correction…
‘I hope not’
should read
‘I hope not through torture’
January 23rd, 2009 at 8:05 pm
Willy,
Fair enough. I don’t think Pres. Bush was evil and I don’t think that specifically a Democratic president would have been better. I do though think John McCain or John Kerry would have done a better job in this area and would not have used the same kind of aggressive rhetoric.
Also, with respect to waterboarding, as Bill O’Reilly put it the other day ‘we should compromise our values to save lives’ seems to be the predominant right-wing thinking here. This is where we simply disagree as I believe we should hold our values dear and avoid compromise at all costs. I don’t think ’seeing what they know’ meets the standard required for that compromise.
In my opinion it would take the ‘ticking bomb’ analogy where if we don’t get the information then people will without a doubt, die.
Finally, I almost don’t know where to start with some of your assertions at Gitmo. The ‘cells’ are glorified outside ‘dog kennels’. They have no rights of visitation, held without trial for years on end, not to mention at the mercy of harsh interrogation methods like the aforementioned waterboarding.
January 23rd, 2009 at 8:07 pm
Also Willy,
“How do we extract information from our enemies?”
As Cara stated there are many ways. However let me help you out by specifically explaining some ways:
1) Leverage
(i) Find family members/friends and offer phone-calls/visitation/news in return for information
(ii) Offer lighter punishment or no punishment at all depending on quality of information.
(iii) Find family members/friends who are also in trouble and offer to help them in return for quality of information.
2) ‘Befriend/Reprogram’ by playing the ‘good cop’ continuously and gradually break down resistance and concept of the interrogator as the enemy.
3) Use deception/bad cop approach i.e suggest that other co-detainees are co-operating and that if the detainee doesn’t talk he is going to bear the brunt of the punishment etc
I’m not an expert on interrogation but to me those seem like they could pretty effective and more reliable than extracting it via torture?
January 23rd, 2009 at 8:21 pm
Just as they would lie to stop torture, they would surly lie to see family members. Actually what you suggest is merely negotiating with a sworn enemy. Anyhow, I guess we are not going to agree here, Lee.
The left’s hero FDR rounded up Japanese Americans and put them in internment camps during WWII. They, the left, have never condemed FDR for this wartime tactic.
Abraham Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus during the Civil War. A President has expanded powers during wartime.
January 23rd, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Watching the news and apparently some of the folks who were given early departure from gitmo are now back on the al qaeda battlefield.
January 23rd, 2009 at 9:01 pm
Saudi Detainee released from Gitmo became al Qaeda leader
Yemen began cooperating with the United States on counterterrorism activities in late 2001. But the partnership has been a troubled one, with American officials accusing Yemen of paroling dangerous terrorists, including some who were wanted in the United States. Some high-level terrorism suspects have also mysteriously escaped from Yemeni jails. The disagreements and security lapses have complicated efforts to repatriate the 100 or so Yemenis remaining in Guantánamo.
The Bush administration released this man in 2007, without trial -a decision made by political appointees, not judicial review – and handed him over to the Saudis who let him walk.
Remember after the Cole, the Yemini ambassador, Barbra Bodine,wouldn’t let them investigate:
The FBI and some White House officials, in turn, suspected Bodine was too sympathetic toward the Yemenis. The FBI special agent in charge, John O’Neill was forced to return to New York after butting heads too many times with the ambassador.
Andrew Sullivan said:
If they’d just stuck with the existing definitions, all the Gitmo detainees against whom they could build a real case under the actual rules of law, without torture and without rigging the courts, would have been tried…already. If found guilty, the death penalty would have been warranted in some cases. I would personally have had no problem with that.
January 23rd, 2009 at 9:16 pm
Yet another reason why people like him need to be locked up.
But by all means. Close gitmo.
January 23rd, 2009 at 10:13 pm
No,no,no,no!
By all means KEEP it open…FOREVER!
Hold the innocent and the quilty equally, unless your Saudi masters want their release.
Meanwhile, as Knight Ridder reports, Guantanamo became a school for jihad, or Islamic holy war.
January 23rd, 2009 at 10:25 pm
Yeah, they weren’t holy warriors before. Not buying it.
After the months of so many screaming for it to be closed so the rest of the world “likes” us I am anxious to see what happens IF it actually closes.
God help us.
January 23rd, 2009 at 10:31 pm
Jesus freaking Christ, Bliss
January 23rd, 2009 at 10:38 pm
Again with the strawman arguments.
#1)Nobody’s is saying that NONE of them were jihadists before their capture.
#2)The report says, that when innocents are housed by terrorists, they are often converted.
It’s what one would expect, if the ONLY person sympathic to you is telling you how evil your captors are.
#3)Nobody wants it closed so “the world likes us”. That’s a right wing talking point to distract from the REAL argument that Guantanamo has done the US more harm than good.
January 23rd, 2009 at 10:56 pm
OldLefty,
Nobody wants it closed so “the world likes us”.
I agree, but it sure seems like there are some folks who want to make sure the world can’t stand us. It’s like a badge of honor with some people.
January 23rd, 2009 at 10:58 pm
I know, “We don’t care about no stinkn ferners”.
They forget that the world gets intel that we need them to pass onto us…we DO need the rest of the world, especially when we are in debt.
January 23rd, 2009 at 11:09 pm
Kregg,
Willy said: I don’t know how old you are, but I can remember during the Vietnam war, the North Vietnamese would strap explosives to children and send them into an American camp and blow up our troops.
W: Our soldiers did not know who the next child would be with explosives strapped on him. So, unfortunately some of those children were killed by our soldiers. The Left used that as propaganda to demonize our troops and called them baby killers.
W: Frosty’s statement brings back those memories of blaming America and our soldiers while giving a pass to the enemy.
K: Willy, I’m 53 so, while I was too young for vietnam (I was in high school and they cleaned out Saigon the week I registered for the draft), I remember the atrocities. I don’t blame our troops for defending themselves.
K: Frosty blames Americans and christians for every wrong ever committed on this planet so this latest round is pretty standard stuff. Keeps reminding us he is ANTI-theist. I’m glad to know this particular fact because if he were a christian – with his attitude – he’d be the person he loves to hate… ;-)
January 24th, 2009 at 2:07 am
“”I agree, but it sure seems like there are some folks who want to make sure the world can’t stand us. It’s like a badge of honor with some people.”
Indeed.
Have you ever looked back and read what you’ve written?
“”Frosty blames Americans and christians for every wrong ever committed on this planet so this latest round is pretty standard stuff.”"
Great rallying cry to dig up some support from amongst the posters here…I almost expect the free-thinking liberals to rally around your stupid comment, lol!
UM CARA? You in? Lol….
Kregg – typical conservative “black or white”…but never the grey in between…, lol
You WANT me to blame ALL the problems of the world on the US, so that you can define ME as ‘agin’ ya – as in “you’re either “wit us, or agin’ us!”…
The fact is, that the US is neither part of the solution, nor part of the problem…instead – like all cultures the world over…she is a complex mix; the only difference is that there is a lot of patriotic nonsense that replaces real knowledge and awareness in your country…
You, in fact, ggerK, are a great example of this….
January 24th, 2009 at 2:17 am
To Kregg and Frosty,
Once again, wars are being written in the literal sense, all in the name of religion…Why? What matters where we came from, shouldn’t it matter more, where we are going, hands clasped together and standing united and both sides sharing different opinions, but respecting our own uniqueness in thought’s and non-violent behavior. Isn’t Mother Nature our true deity, for without her we truly wouldn’t exist…Right? And who is she? She surrounds us , she nurtures us, through the her abundance of food and water. obviously, not evenly. And why is that? Because mankind has taken it upon himself to be his own ‘God’ in the distribution of her goods to whomever he chooses. And for what? Power and Greed!
January 24th, 2009 at 2:43 am
“”I agree, but it sure seems like there are some folks who want to make sure the world can’t stand us. It’s like a badge of honor with some people.”
Indeed.
Have you ever looked back and read what you’ve written?
K: Frosty, I didn’t write the above statement. And, yes, I DO look back on what I’ve written. I wish YOU would look back at it and see that what I’ve written is not what you’ve said I wrote. You are also a master of misunderstanding what has been posted to you.
K previously: “”Frosty blames Americans and christians for every wrong ever committed on this planet so this latest round is pretty standard stuff.””
F: Great rallying cry to dig up some support from amongst the posters here…I almost expect the free-thinking liberals to rally around your stupid comment, lol!
K: I have no interest in “digging up some support” for anything regarding you. I merely observe that you seem a very angry person and commented on it. Its a fact that you harp on America constantly in your posts AND you accuse christians of every atrocity you can think of. If you believe me making some “rallying cry” please disabuse yourself of your paranoia.
F: UM CARA? You in? Lol….
F: Kregg – typical conservative “black or white”…but never the grey in between…, lol
K: Frosty, you’re about the most stereotyping poster I’ve observed on this board. Should I label you as a typical liberal “all grey area” … but never ever a black or a white?
F: You WANT me to blame ALL the problems of the world on the US, so that you can define ME as ‘agin’ ya – as in “you’re either “wit us, or agin’ us!”…
K: Well, you’re on to my secret. Guess I’ll have to change tactics now… And, you know, I did it exactly how the book said to. Guess you were too smart for me… ;-)
F: The fact is, that the US is neither part of the solution, nor part of the problem…instead – like all cultures the world over…she is a complex mix; the only difference is that there is a lot of patriotic nonsense that replaces real knowledge and awareness in your country…
K: Obviously unlike your own country where all is erudite sweetness and light…
F: You, in fact, ggerK, are a great example of this….
K: Is there a day of the week – or month – where you are able to carry on adult conversations without all the cutesy spelling inversions and such? If so, let me know, I’d love to converse with you on an adult to adult basis and not this screaming tantrum stuff….
January 24th, 2009 at 2:51 am
Snoop said” Isn’t Mother Nature our true deity, for without her we truly wouldn’t exist…Right? And who is she?
K: Snoop, Frosty MAY believe in this deity, however, you’d have to ask him. I believe the true deity is the biblical God.
January 24th, 2009 at 2:54 am
If someome wishes to have a war and kill someonelse because of Religion,well I guess that is alright for them.Me I’d rather just kill them because they wish to kill me and preferably first.
January 24th, 2009 at 10:18 am
Carlotta,
Do you question WHY your government has supported those who want to kill you?
Will you try to prevent them from making the same mistakes again?
January 24th, 2009 at 10:25 am
Lefty said: Do you question WHY your government has supported those who want to kill you? Will you try to prevent them from making the same mistakes again?
K: Lefty,
Obviously, we supported AlQueda at one time to the exist that it served our purposes. What we did 30(?) years ago and what we do today don’t really have any bearing on each other because we aren’t omniscient. We’ve backed any number of ‘terrorist’ causes that served our need at the time and I don’t know that our backing of AQ against the Russians was a bad thing…
January 24th, 2009 at 10:40 am
Sorry,not worried about past situations. They want to kill me now simply because I am different and think and believe differently.So I would much rather kill them first,survival you know. and also I know that some people cannot have their minds changed by years of talk amd wishful thinking.All you need to see and know about for that to be proven to anyone with a modicum of sense is look at the history of the world and study Natural Law.
January 24th, 2009 at 10:41 am
Oops, “exist” was supposed to be ‘extent’
January 24th, 2009 at 10:41 am
Yea, what’s your point? Not a sarcastic question, I just don’t get what you are saying.
January 24th, 2009 at 10:49 am
Carlotta,
Congratulations!
You can keep following the SAME policies that fund and support the SAME people who want to kill you, you can arm them and funnel money into their madrassas, and play checkers while Osama bin Ladin plays chess, hoping they will stop trying to kill you.
That’s like fighting mosquitoes with a sledge hammer.
Now THAT’S wishful thinking!
January 24th, 2009 at 10:50 am
Volunteer and go talk to them then I will even provide the funding lefty.
January 24th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Carlotta,
How in your opinion did ANY of this get started?
Does it have anything to do with the government supporting those who support radical Islam?
Does it has ANYTHING to do with supplying jihadists in Afganistan with stinger missles and teaching them to bring down a superpower, in spite of the warnings that they will some day turn on us?
January 24th, 2009 at 11:02 am
As stated, not worried about how or why,but if you think you can make a difference I still will provide the funding so you can go talk to them. Well?
January 24th, 2009 at 11:12 am
previous:“”I agree, but it sure seems like there are some folks who want to make sure the world can’t stand us. It’s like a badge of honor with some people.”
Frosty: Indeed.
Frosty: Have you ever looked back and read what you’ve written? Yea, what’s your point? Not a sarcastic question, I just don’t get what you are saying.
K: UM, is this post addressed to me? I didn’t post the comment above but Frosty attributed it to me and then asked me if I read what I posted…
January 24th, 2009 at 11:14 am
Carlotta,
Then you are doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over.
You are the kind of American that Osama bin Ladin counts on.
And I never said I should talk to them, only that OUR government should stop as the late Pakistani President Benazir Bhutto, told President George H. W. Bush, “You are creating a jihadist Frankenstein.” , but actually,the government will provide YOU the funding to go and fight them.
I think you need to get back to us when you have more than right wing talking points. Perhaps you can read a book. Well?
January 24th, 2009 at 11:23 am
I agree with carlotta,maybe you should go and talk to them Lefty,you never know a person with an elightened viewpoint just might do some good.
January 24th, 2009 at 11:33 am
Mark,
I think you should sign up or at least bring something besides tired old talking points.
And I know, you have just done five straight tours in Iraq.
January 24th, 2009 at 11:43 am
Actually have done four tours in Iraq and now slated to go t Afghanistan,am getting tired of fighting for the safety of all you leftist fools.
January 24th, 2009 at 11:47 am
Mark,
Actually have done four tours in Iraq and now slated to go t Afghanistan,am getting tired of fighting for the safety of all you leftist fools.
Posted by mark
…………………………………
Of course you are!
That’s why you are spending your valuable time on this website that is read by dozens.
And I am a veteran of the first Gulf war, Viet Nam, WW1, AND WW2.
January 24th, 2009 at 11:52 am
You are, in all respects, a great American and an American hero Mark.
I salute you and thank you for your service in the American military.
January 24th, 2009 at 11:54 am
How old are you Lefty? My Grandpa served in WWI and if he were still with us he would be 114 years old.
January 24th, 2009 at 11:55 am
Now I see where the OldLefty comes from,boy you have really fought in a lot of wars.
January 24th, 2009 at 11:56 am
Willy,
I’m being facetious.
My point is that on an anonymous site like this ANYBODY can say they served.
January 24th, 2009 at 11:59 am
Hey Lefty, How’d you miss out on the Korean conflict? Did you ride with Teddy Roosevelt and his Rough Riders?
January 24th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
I am only kidding with you Lefty.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Willy said: How old are you Lefty? My Grandpa served in WWI and if he were still with us he would be 114 years old.
K: Willy, Lefty is so old he grew up watching television by candlelight. In fact, he may have been around in 1929 when, as VP Biden said, the prez went on tv to talk to the american people… ;-)
January 24th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Anybody can post anything here. You are right Lefty. But I doubt that the vast majority of those here would lie about serving their country. That is my opinion.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Hee, hee, heeeheee, haahaahaaheee.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
I’m so old, we didn’t have alarm clocks….you stuck a candle in your nose, and when it burned your nose, it was time to get up! But then we weren’t spoiled like these kids today!!
January 24th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
HEEHEEEHAWHEEHAAAAA! Oh my I, must,heeeheeehaawwheehee, compose my hee hee, myself, heehawwhawhaaaw heee.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
Lefty said: I’m so old, we didn’t have alarm clocks….you stuck a candle in your nose, and when it burned your nose, it was time to get up! But then we weren’t spoiled like these kids today!!
K: Lefty, I agree. When I was young we walked 20 miles barefoot, uphill both ways, in the snow to school everyday. So, did you use a longer candle on Sundays when you were allowed to sleep in a little?
January 24th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Stick a candle in my nose. Haaawwhaawheee. Come on stop it , heeheehaww. Ok I’m starting to get hold of myself. he hehaw. heehee. There, I’m ok now.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Anybody can post anything here. You are right Lefty. But I doubt that the vast majority of those here would lie about serving their country. That is my opinion.
Posted by Willy
……………………………………………..
I’m not so sure. There was a guy claiming to be a former intel guy who was dying, and SO worried about his country.
His grammer and content made him suspect, then he went on to tell me that I was on a watch list, and there was a blue van outside my house.
Clearly he was a phony.
I find that people who saw combat, usually don’t really want to talk about with those who have not.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
Lefty said, …and there was a blue van outside my house. Clearly he was a phony.
K: Frosty, that was me in the van. I was coming to sell you carbon credits so you could continue to use your ‘alarm clock’.
L: I find that people who saw combat, usually don’t really want to talk about with those who have not.
K: Very true…
January 24th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
I love the uphill both ways.
But I AM old enough to remember 3 channels on the TV, and NOTHING for kids except Sat morning…..and changing the needles on record players.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Mark,
Actually have done four tours in Iraq and now slated to go t Afghanistan,am getting tired of fighting for the safety of all you leftist fools.
Sounds like you don’t like half of your country very much, you probably do need a break. Maybe with some rest you will be less bitter.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
L said: But I AM old enough to remember 3 channels on the TV, and NOTHING for kids except Sat morning…..and changing the needles on record players.
K: Yup, ABC, NBC, and CBS. We didn’t watch much tv as kids but by today’s standards it was almost non-existent. My kid (21) is fascinated by the old-school of my turntable… I didn’t have the heart to show him my 8-track
January 24th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
and changing the needles on record players.
And trying to find the right one when you needed to replace an old one. A real PITA.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
previous: and changing the needles on record players.
UM said: And trying to find the right one when you needed to replace an old one. A real PITA.
K: My high-end turntable is still screwed up from my kid trying to help out when we last moved – he removed the needle to keep it safe and now I can’t get it to seat correctly.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
A question lefty,have you ever been in the military at all?
January 24th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
A question lefty,have you ever been in the military at all?
Posted by don
………………………………………….
No, I believe that WW2 was probably the last war we fought for self defense, and that we would do well to listen to Eisenhower who said,
“We must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. “
I also believe that because,
“Their’s is not to question why, Their’s is but to do or die…
That OUR’S is to question why.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
KREGG, your age is somewhere between 45 and 60 because i remember 3 stations as well. Antenna on the roof. I was lucky thou growing up between Cincy,OH and Lexington,KY my family received 7 channels. My heart is broken from the word turntable. I lost over 600 albums in 1990 moving from OH to KY. I had everything from Jimmy Hendrix to The Clash to James Brown.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Typical leftist retard who has never served in any war,but at least he admits he has never served,although someone who has never served does not have the standards of rationalization neccessary to even begin to understand any information he recieves due to the glass-house complex.The military has for too long been fighting and dying for these types so they could spout their resultant gibberish.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Self-defence to fight the war on terror. The other wars where police actions and 1 war on lies. I received war pay 3 times myself.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
John,
You are an idiot, and a dick.
And lefty is a chick, not a ‘he’.
The military has for too long been fighting and dying for these types so they could spout their resultant gibberish.
There are of course countries which do not permit public dissent. You might be more comfortable in one of those countries. Just a thought, since you sound so unhappy, though the US is tolerant of even your anti-American rhetoric.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
John,
I hate to be mean but YOUR gibberish sounds like it comes from one who has NO idea what this country is about.
It’s easy to spout off bumperstickers.
First why do you assume that I am a he?
Secondly, much of my opinion has been formed by the military who DO know more than the chickenhawks they so often serve.
I’ve already quoted Eisenhower, lets not forget;
Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Recipient
Major General Smedley D. Butler – USMC Retired, who wrote,
“WAR IS A RACKET
WAR is a racket. It always has been.
It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope.
It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.
A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small “inside” group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.
In the World War [I] a mere handful garnered the profits of the conflict. At least 21,000 new millionaires and billionaires were made in the United States during the World War. That many admitted their huge blood gains in their income tax returns. How many other war millionaires falsified their tax returns no one knows.
How many of these war millionaires shouldered a rifle? How many of them dug a trench? How many of them knew what it meant to go hungry in a rat-infested dug-out? How many of them spent sleepless, frightened nights, ducking shells and shrapnel and machine gun bullets? How many of them parried a bayonet thrust of an enemy? How many of them were wounded or killed in battle?”
Spare me your Limbaugh, Hanity talking points!
January 24th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
Yes,but lack of judgement for fighting wars since World War II. I served in the military. Using better judgement from the presidents is the main issue. Nam,the French failed and we should have known not to go their,but we did.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Then if lefty is a “chick” my understanding grows and the statement is even more true.And not in any way am I anti-American, just Anti-gibberish spouting liberals who have been protected by others that they have no rational understanding of reality.
January 24th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
John liberals have served this nation as well. Myself being a liberal. Perhaps you have no understanding of reality. Beside,liberal presidents fought the greatest war. Check your history.
January 24th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
John,
And not in any way am I anti-American, just Anti-gibberish spouting liberals who have been protected by others that they have no rational understanding of reality.
Your grammar is so atrocious it is difficult to understand what you are trying to say. I will thus assume you haven’t made it out of elementary school and this is why you have such a poor understanding of what rights the brave men and women of our military have historically fought to protect.
When you grow up a bit, I’m sure you will be embarrassed by your immature rantings.
I forgive you.
January 24th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
Well John,
On My side of the aisle, we see you as gibberish spouting right wingers who just repeat propaganda.
It is for you that Clarence Darrow said:
“The world is made up for the most part of morons and natural tyrants, sure of themselves, strong in their own opinions, never doubting anything.”
January 24th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Bye, Everybody!
January 24th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
Atrocious grammer?O well,you know what an assumption does I guess,make a few more, I really like them.And as far as the rights which the military has fought to protect,it is exactly that fact and the use of those rights(abuse),which liberals seem to be so fond of, just as they did when my Brother came back from Vietnam,and some of my very close personal friends did not.I will not even truly respond to the rest of your statement cara,it also is in the realm of assumption and not worth the “elementary” time.
January 24th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
John,
Atrocious grammer?
No, atrocious grammar. It means your grammar is not very good.
I’m not sure if they still have recess or not, but if so – you might want to use that time to study, rather than play four square.
January 24th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Actually some of the earlier comments were at least partially correct as involves the military complex and other issues. It is that with most liberals it is the military men and women who are caught in the jaws of the trap and it is they who are maligned and suffer from the wrongheaded parts of the liberal propaganda machine.
January 24th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
By now.
January 24th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Buy now.
January 24th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Cards said: KREGG, your age is somewhere between 45 and 60 because i remember 3 stations as well. Antenna on the roof. I was lucky thou growing up between Cincy,OH and Lexington,KY my family received 7 channels. My heart is broken from the word turntable. I lost over 600 albums in 1990 moving from OH to KY. I had everything from Jimmy Hendrix to The Clash to James Brown.
K: Cards, Yup, I’m 53. Ouch on the records. If you’d retained them and sold out now you’d be a rich Lib… ;-) How’d you get 7 channels – duplicates of the three biggies or were there indies in your area?
January 24th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Bye now. LOL
January 24th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
John said: Typical leftist retard who has never served in any war,but at least he admits he has never served,although someone who has never served does not have the standards of rationalization neccessary to even begin to understand any information he recieves due to the glass-house complex.The military has for too long been fighting and dying for these types so they could spout their resultant gibberish.
K: John, a little note. Both Lefty and UM have brains. What makes you discredit their opinions on military/political matters just because they did not serve? I didn’t serve, I’m a Con, and I CERTAINLY have opinions on these matters. May I suggest you quit the generalization and name specific issues on these guys instead of blowing your whole wad on them? Thats being just as bad as the Libs you love to hate…
January 24th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
My dad hooked UHF and VHF using a roof antenna. The Cincy channels WLW,WKRC and WCPO all on VHF AND WXIX a UHF channel. All the Lexington channels where UHF. gREW UP 31 miles from LEXINGTON and 60 from Cincy. When LEX added an independent station ,8 channels. 54 living in lex,ky.
January 24th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Maybe later.
January 24th, 2009 at 9:04 pm
u m cara,have studied plenty,psychology,all types mathematics,calculus and calculus based physics,differential equations, boolean logic(algebra),,chemistry,physics,computer programing,english,history,read hundreds of books,several papers and inventions,you see I am a junkie for reading and studying but I would not try to let you know everything, just some, about four degrees,counting the associates as the just about degrees. The masters and doctorates are the real ones and most of all are the degrees in real life where you are not living in a protected environment.There is more of course.
January 24th, 2009 at 9:12 pm
How proud the right must be of John.
January 24th, 2009 at 9:17 pm
Leave John alone, Craig. He’ll use his boolean logic on you. That’s why his posts are so hard to understand, they are boolean.
Boo!
January 24th, 2009 at 9:21 pm
Actually,I go after some of them also just have not been on here very much,the righties that is.
January 24th, 2009 at 9:23 pm
Actually what I really use is a variation of complexity theory.
January 24th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Was named some years ago as chaos theory.
January 24th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Complexity theory has been found to be very applicable in the study of populations and population psychology,(that is human) as refers to politics and reactions to events and changes in the norms of thought.
January 24th, 2009 at 9:31 pm
Whooooa! philosophy is just a hobby and no one said there was gonna be math.
January 24th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
As refers to people most percieve themselves to be either liberal or conservative,however that is not really the case.Most people are a complex situation unto themselves wherein they usually have thought processes which you could argue in certain circumstances could actually be either.People normally see themselves to be one or the other due to self perception or what others seem to think they are and this is really what leads people to self define one way or the other.People align themselves with the most accepted norms or their understanding of those norms at different times.
January 24th, 2009 at 9:37 pm
Craig said: How proud the right must be of John.
K: Craig, I don’t see much difference between John and Frosty, quite frankly…
January 24th, 2009 at 9:37 pm
John,
Step.Away.From.The.Bong
January 24th, 2009 at 9:39 pm
If you really wanted to get down to it,I would self describe as a middle of the road moderate due to the actual fact that sometimes I would support either a percieved liberal or conservative point of view.
January 24th, 2009 at 9:42 pm
Cara,been many years since I have even seen one of those.LOL
January 24th, 2009 at 9:44 pm
These methods of thought development are the reasons why people usually seem to not actually get along, that being because they do not break an issue down far enough to see where they might actually agree and where they disagree. Preferring to disagree for the sake of disagreement for its on sake.Abortion is a primary example.
January 24th, 2009 at 9:48 pm
I will say this also,a fairly large amount of the posts on here by both sides have been pretty good,except in the instances when they have been to thoroughly colored by emotion.
January 24th, 2009 at 9:51 pm
????????
January 24th, 2009 at 10:07 pm
This is what happens when we let Gitmo prisoners go free…
From the New York Times –
BEIRUT, Lebanon — The emergence of a former Guantánamo Bay detainee as the deputy leader of Al Qaeda’s Yemeni branch has underscored the potential complications in carrying out the executive order President Obama signed Thursday that the detention center be shut down within a year.
The militant, Said Ali al-Shihri, is suspected of involvement in a deadly bombing of the United States Embassy in Yemen’s capital, Sana, in September. He was released to Saudi Arabia in 2007 and passed through a Saudi rehabilitation program for former jihadists before resurfacing with Al Qaeda in Yemen.
His status was announced in an Internet statement by the militant group and was confirmed by an American counterterrorism official.
“They’re one and the same guy,” said the official, who insisted on anonymity because he was discussing an intelligence analysis. “He returned to Saudi Arabia in 2007, but his movements to Yemen remain unclear.”
For the rest of the story:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/23/world/middleeast/23yemen.html?partner=rss&emc=rss
January 26th, 2009 at 1:38 am