How The GOP Continues To Marginalize Itself
This week we’ve seen the attempt by conservative governors to have it both ways: blast the Democratic stimulus plan, but take the money anyway. We’ve seen Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal stumble badlyduring his response to Obama’s address to the joint session of Congress. (How bizarre is it that the governor of the Katina state has a problem with money for volcano monitoring, much to the dismay of geologists?). Now, at the annual CPAC conference, the wingnuts are continuing to push the myth that Obama wasn’t born in the US.
Cliff Kincaid, head of Accuracy in Media, was introducing Congressman Mike Pence of Indiana, when he suggested that Obama is (a) a Communist and (b) not born in the United States.
Congressman Richard Shelby of Alabama recently brought up the issue, saying, “You have to be born in America to be president.” Dave Ozment, chairman of the Cullman County Republican Party had jump in and do damage control, declaring, “[Shelby] was not saying and I’m not saying he (Obama) is or isn’t [a U.S. citizen], he was just saying he hasn’t seen one (a birth certificate),” Ozment said.
Some clarification.
Ah, the self-destruction of the Conservative right picks up speed…thank heavens for these right wing-nuts. They have done more to reveal the REAL agenda and opinion of the right than any liberal could.
Why do I see the political undertaker beginning to get a sparkle in his eye as he starts digging the grave of the GOP faster……RIP GOP. :)
February 26th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
Look, you can agree that stealing money is a bad thing. But when the money is already stolen, and they drop it at your door, you kinda should use it. Your gonna pay for it anyway. And, to be clear, several repub govs are denying money that would handicap them later.
As far as Obama and being citizen? I think he was born in Hawaii. But it is interesting story regarding his mother marrying dad. It may be law in that country that a spouse of that nationality drop citizenship to another country at time of marriage. AND, all children do the same.
So, if that’s the case, Obama’s mother would have become Kenyan as well as Obama himself. He would have had to re assume citizenship later, as an adult.
Not sure if that is the case or not, BUT it is an interesting story.
February 26th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
He was born in Hawaii, the birth announcement was in the Honolulu newspaper…but I guess Barack made that up to…..GEEZ.
February 26th, 2009 at 6:47 pm
I find stories of the pink unicorn interesting as well, although one does try and distinguish fact from fiction. Conservatives seem to lack the ability to use critical thinking and reason. Logic isn’t their strong suit either. But then again, since most are nursed on stories of virgin birth’s, talking reptiles, and big men on clouds that control our ever move, this comes as no surprise. :)
February 26th, 2009 at 6:49 pm
No one complained that McCain was born in a foreign country….and that is a fact (Panama). He is still a natural born citizen, though. Barack was born in the U.S. and he is put through the ringer by psychotic right-wingnuts, go figure.
February 26th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Just sayin–does Kenyan law require the non-Kenyan spouce any any non-kenyan children give up citizenship to marry a kenyan?
If so, Obama may have given his up? True?
February 26th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
No.
February 26th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
These people aren’t nuts. They’re subversives.
And I think they should be investigated by the FBI, the ATF, and the DEA just to see what kind of costumes they wear when there are no TV cameras around.
February 26th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
Pino,
It has been said that Kenya does NOT allow dual citizenship. Period. So, to answer your question, if you lived in Kenya wouldn’t one have to give up their U.S. citizenship in order to live in Kenya?
February 26th, 2009 at 7:17 pm
No.
oh.
Continuing in your method.
yes.
if you lived in Kenya wouldn’t one have to give up their U.S. citizenship in order to live in Kenya?
I don’t know. But I think the point of question is:
If you MARRY a Kenyan, you have to be Kenyan. As well as minor children. Which Obama was at the time.
February 26th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
I don’t really care at this point if the documentation is there or not. Whatever! I , however, do have a problem with GOP cheerleaders spewing partisan BS instead of focusing on the problems that are facing us today. They preach that liberals spew hate and divide the country and then pull off a stunt like this. I have a problem preaching they are the party of fiscal responsibility adn then add 40% of the excess to the new spending bill. When they start acting any different than the liberals and drop the hypocracy, maybe I’d consider a word of what any of these men have to say credible. Thus why I claim no party affiliation.
February 26th, 2009 at 7:24 pm
I’m not on the bandwagon of Barack wasn’t born here, however the kenya dual citizenship argument and the newspaper argument are pretty flimsy…stick to the better facts.
newspaper announcements can just be called in…pick a better argument.
February 26th, 2009 at 7:26 pm
AMEN BRIAN: The constitution says natural born citizen. He was born in Hawaii, birth certificate says so, Honolulu paper shows the anouncement of his birth…THERE IS NO STORY HERE. Move on.
February 26th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
Kenyan law has no bearing on U.S. citizenship rights. None. Zip. Zero. Unless you expatriate yourself willing, you are a natural born citizen. His birth certificate is online, by the way. This is about the level of an argument I would expect from Conservatives; a continued predilection with the irrelevant.
February 26th, 2009 at 7:31 pm
Alan, you forgot about when John Bolton made a “joke” about Chicago being destroyed by a nuclear weapon.
GOP. You so crazy…
February 26th, 2009 at 8:22 pm
Wow, I guess they don’t have IQ tests to become Republican Politicians. They even got Joe “the fake plumber” coming up in the spot light. Hopefully he will make a worst debut compared to Palin at least.
February 26th, 2009 at 8:39 pm
Obama’s birth certificate is authentic. Every right wing lie has been debunked on this.
February 26th, 2009 at 8:48 pm
Unless you expatriate yourself willing,
Or, if a minor, your mother does it for you. Just sayin boys, Chicago does as Chicago is.
February 26th, 2009 at 9:10 pm
Yeah, the birth certificate thing is just as loony as many of you libs decrying Bush after 2000 and saying that he stole the election.
February 26th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
Alan?, just curious as to why you don’t mention how BO has done more to harm the U.S. in 20 days than Bush did in 8 years that included 9/11 and fighting 2 wars?
February 26th, 2009 at 9:25 pm
Perhaps because that is only the wishful thinking of the 27%ers.
February 26th, 2009 at 9:27 pm
I hope the conservatives continue this lunacy.
This will insure that the Democrats will have a nice long time to occupy the majority of political offices in Washington & throughout most states.
They’re not just poor losers, they’re losers without a clue as to why they’re losers.
February 26th, 2009 at 9:32 pm
@GUIDOVANHORN: pick a better argument.
The point is there shouldn’t be an argument.
The burden of proof is not on Obama to verify his citizenship (that’s already been done by at least a half-dozen state and federal agencies), it is on the wingnuts to prove that he’s not a citizen. THEY have made the claims, based on some of the most bizarre pretzel logic I’ve ever heard.
Do you have any idea how many offices, bureaucratic agencies, and people you would need to have in your pocket to pull off what the wingnuts are suggesting? It’s absurd. To believe Obama is not a US citizen is tinfoil-hattery of the highest order.
It would be sad if it weren’t so funny.
Indeed, MARY, if the Republican party continues on its present course, the Democrats will be the majority for decades.
February 26th, 2009 at 11:24 pm
Flap, obviously you didn’t pay attention to the 2000 election. It was CLEARLY stolen. Many of my family lived in Florida, and the fraud was just incredible. Wean your self from FAUX news, Limbaugh and the rest….your brain is being sapped of any reason ability.
February 26th, 2009 at 11:29 pm
Pino: A parent cannot expatriate a child.
February 26th, 2009 at 11:33 pm
DEB: Perhaps you will tell us all the secret to traveling and living in an alternate universe…..that has to be the only explanation for your post.
February 26th, 2009 at 11:34 pm
wingnuts is a great label for these conservative hole diggers. Watch a few of Bushes last few appearances and you’d think jindahl
made a eloquent rebutt of the prezes speech. When are these corrupt idiots gonna wake up and realize the position their hubris has placed the nation. Nothings not f@#ked up now!!! No shame no clue.
February 27th, 2009 at 1:29 am
Flap, obviously you didn’t pay attention to the 2000 election. It was CLEARLY stolen. Many of my family lived in Florida, and the fraud was just incredible. Wean your self from FAUX news, Limbaugh and the rest….your brain is being sapped of any reason ability.
Posted by phillipd
soooo…how did the recount actually pan out after they completed it?
I’ll give you a hint…it wasn’t Gore.
Still crying about it even after all these years. “but my hanging chad wasn’t counted.”
February 27th, 2009 at 2:23 am
The most interesting part of the video isn’t what Kincaid said, but rather the crowd’s reaction: Wildly enthusiastic cheering and applause.
So guys like Shelby can issue all the phony “apologies” they want. Bottom line, the righties in this country actually believe this nonsense. I suppose that’s to be expected when folks spends their whole day, day upon day, year after year, getting their brains pickled in the brine of right wing radio. Hell,if I spent 9 straight hours every day listening to Limbaugh, Hannity and Levin, I’d wind up believing some nutty things too.
How long is it before the sensible conservatives out there realize that their movement is being marched into the margins of history and start fighting back? We’re already seeing some signs of this from guys like David Brooks. If the fight doesn’t start soon, the Republican Party may join the Whigs in the ash heap of history.
February 27th, 2009 at 4:11 am
Here we go again!
Here we go again!
Everytime I turn around, somone is claiming something new!
Yet, it something very old!
Haven’t they heard
Haven’t they learned
There is really nothing new under the sun!
——
Guys, is anyone thinking “shades of Election 2000″ and liberals complaining Bush is not our president? I am.
We have been down this road, before. Give it a rest! Bush was our president for the past 8 years. Obama is our president for the next 4 years.
February 27th, 2009 at 7:04 am
The most interesting part of the video isn’t what Kincaid said, but rather the crowd’s reaction: Wildly enthusiastic cheering and applause.
Posted by laborlawyer
It reminds me of a line in Star Wars episode III (I think, maybe II)
“So this is how democracy dies, to thunderous applause.”
February 27th, 2009 at 7:38 am
Alan,
I thank you for giving a warning to the Republicans. I am refering to both the “conservatives” and “moderate”. They really do need to wake up; less they go the way of the “Far Left”. The “Far Right” is behaving exactly the same way as the “Far Left”.
We do not need this.
Both parties have the same exact problems. The only difference is the Dems have a larger base. To my Republican friends, I say to you this. Look honestly at the Democratic Party and learn. The Democrats has some things to teach you.
They’ve gone through what you’re starting to go through. I am alluding to the factioning that has been occuring in that party.
“The Far Left” is simply the louder and more shrill. That is their bad point. The good point is, they’re more active then the “moderate” and “conservative” elements of their party. This is something I’d like to see happen. That is, I would prefer that the “moderate” and “conservative” wings of the Democratic Party rise up and take control and not let the Peloses run amok.
The same easily apply to the Republicans Party. Wake Up!
Here is a more direct and specific comment. Conservatism should not equal “Business first and people dead last!” This is the image you’re presenting to the American people. You need to apply “conservative principles” to the human beings affected by what is happening.
For me, there needs to be a balance between “Big Government” and “Private Sector”. It can’t be one way or the other.
Social Conservatives seem to have the right ideas by implementing moral values to the problems facing people. Oddly enough, they’re the more liberal of the various groups of Conservatives. That is, they’re more open to letting the government do some things. Consider this, a big part of what happened on Wall Streat occured because good moral principles were not observed. Hence the cry for regulations.
Here is an idea –Regulations that encourage good moral behaviors and punishes bad behaviors. It is true that not all businesses are run by greedy crooks; however many are hurt by them. Act like you know this!
Now, it is time for fiscal conservatives. Give it a rest! You’re coming across as if you don’t care about people and you don’t! You care more about businesses and ignore the people who are eithre helped or hurt by them. Why do you think people aren’t caring that the top 2% to 5% are getting nailed. It is because they’re hurting and need help! Drop the elitism!
Work on a tax structure that helps everyone! This includes both the poor, middle class and the rich. Mike Huckabee has been advocating the “Fair Tax” idea. Sound like a good idea. Why not investigate this and come across as caring for the people affected by it.
If fiscal conservatives do not make real changes in their attitude; they’re the ones who will end up being ignored. Wake Up!
February 27th, 2009 at 7:48 am
the fair tax won’t work…and it’s not really fair…although we do need to change our tax code to something that isn’t so impossible to figure out.
February 27th, 2009 at 7:52 am
Sing and dance and have a jolly old time all you neo-libs. You won in 2006 and 2008. Your party controls the entire federal government. I am curious to see if you liberals hold your party accountable for any mis-deeds and any bad policies they pass in Congress.
You cannot brand an entire party for the deeds or words of a few in that party. Either party. I remember people burying the Democratic party several years ago when they couldn’t win an election and were in disarray. So watch what you wish for, you may not like the outcome.
February 27th, 2009 at 8:00 am
We the liberals and Democrats WILL hold our party MORE accountable than the the Republicans did.
And the “neolibs” are less popular now that their leaders, Tom and Milton Friedman are seen as the cheerleaders of the economic meltdown.
February 27th, 2009 at 8:08 am
Sorry, I meant to say, I HOPE the liberals and Democrats ….
Can’t say they will yet.
February 27th, 2009 at 8:09 am
I hope you and your fellow Dems do hold them accountable. I will do my best although they don’t care to much about my point of view.
February 27th, 2009 at 8:14 am
Kincaid reciting Manic Depression was on a flashback. What baffles me,if McCain had won.
He was born overseas and was he born on base ?
The problem with the GOP is. The big mouths that doing the election are still runningtheir mouths. A new voice with different wisdom is a must.
February 27th, 2009 at 8:58 am
I believe that Michael Steele is that voice Steve.
February 27th, 2009 at 9:01 am
I agree,but some1 has to stand up to haters like Rush L.
February 27th, 2009 at 9:13 am
Why, in your opinion is Rush a hater Steve? Because he doesn’t agree with liberals?
February 27th, 2009 at 9:22 am
I hope Obama gives the order to shoot down the Korean missile.
February 27th, 2009 at 9:59 am
Then he’d be an illegally elected communist president messing with communists. [somethings not right with that picture].
February 27th, 2009 at 10:01 am
He is,the man is still preaching same old junk from the elections. The way you sound you love his leadership.
Face it BILSSFUL,the GOP HAS A 11 % APPROVAL RATING.
Out of site,out of mind and out of touch with AMERICA.
February 27th, 2009 at 10:02 am
Fox news is em-barred- Ass as they try to promote a gaffe on Joe Biden;So is the Rush-Republican party!!!!.
February 27th, 2009 at 10:07 am
Hey Steve
Do you know what the current congress’s approval rating is????????
February 27th, 2009 at 10:28 am
Richard Shelby is smarter than that, I thought. He was just shamelessly playing to a bunch of ignorant racists. And I can have that opinion, thank you very much, I’ve lived amongst them here in Alabama for 55 years. In case you didn’t notice, Obama only got 40% of the vote. Therefore to extrapolate, at least 20%, probably higher, of the 60% who voted for McCain are ignorant confederate flag flying, hood wearing yahoos.
February 27th, 2009 at 10:32 am
The confederate flag has more meaning than racism. And you know it. But keep posting the talking points that continue to divide a country already divided.
February 27th, 2009 at 10:38 am
Do you know what the current congress’s approval rating is????????
Posted by blissfulconservative
Pick me I know! In general, Congress’ approval ratings tend to be low. In fact, the current 31% score is very near the historical average of 35% in Gallup Polls since 1974. That compares with an average 55% approval rating for presidents historically. Source ~ Gallup.com
And your point is…………?
February 27th, 2009 at 10:42 am
When you grew in a town with “White Only” signs, you tend to be a little touchy on the subject of the Confederate flag, which was hijacked by the KKK, which by the way had their national headquarters located in my hometown.
February 27th, 2009 at 10:44 am
“The confederate flag has more meaning than racism. And you know it. But keep posting the talking points that continue to divide a country already divided.”
I agree fully here. The civil war was not fought over slavery. But that’s become the popular myth. Hey if you want to ban the confederate flag, why not ban the Christian cross since thats the symbol of the KKK, right?
Its a symbol that defines ‘Southern’ culture like no other. It does not equal “I hate African-Americans” in the same way a swastika equals “I hate Jews”.
February 27th, 2009 at 10:57 am
Lee said: I agree fully here. The civil war was not fought over slavery. But that’s become the popular myth. Hey if you want to ban the confederate flag, why not ban the Christian cross since thats the symbol of the KKK, right?
Its a symbol that defines ‘Southern’ culture like no other. It does not equal “I hate African-Americans” in the same way a swastika equals “I hate Jews”.
K: It really represents the same problem the civil war was fought over – independence and an attitude of secession… ;-)
February 27th, 2009 at 11:06 am
Lee,
You think I don’t know my history?? The civil war was fought over states rights to include slavery. The South wanted wealthy landowners to keep their slaves. The confederate flag does offend some minorites, and rightfully so, since the KKK uses it as one of their symbols and probably displayed it proudly during their lynchings.
February 27th, 2009 at 11:15 am
Southern Girl,
To be honest I don’t know how well you know your history so I wouldn’t prejudge. However, its a fact that many people believe the civil war was ‘all about’ slavery but it wasn’t. For example the Confederacy even offered to free all Southern slaves in return for independence but was refused by Lincoln. But I do apologize sincerely if you felt I was patronizing you.
Now, has it been misused by the KKK, sure.. but as I stated their actual symbol is the Christian cross but strangely noone is offended by that right?
Some guy a lot wiser than me, once said words to the effect that you shouldn’t judge people from simply what you see but instead by their actions. Why is not possible to judge people who choose to display the confederate flag, by their actions in the same way? Or are they all automatically racist, before you see their actions?
February 27th, 2009 at 11:28 am
No, I don’t assume they are racist, just maybe boneheaded, or maybe just don’t care that some minorities are offended. I’m as southern as they come and proudly so, but I don’t need a flag to prove my proud heritage. We need to put down flags and extend a hand to people that are “different” from us. We may find out we are not so different from one another after all.
February 27th, 2009 at 11:36 am
SGL: How is the South responding to the fact that Michael Steele is in charge of the RNC?
Heck, I don’t think they’re too wild about Sarah Palin, as she is married to a Native American. It seems they may be on the run from both parties.
BTW, I heard something about a “new party” in the South. Is this correct? If so, I have a suspicion about it.
February 27th, 2009 at 11:39 am
“new party” ? No. But I’m a liberal democrat – I’m not exactly “in the know” about underground political parties. :)
February 27th, 2009 at 11:46 am
If the civil war was fought today the seceding states would prevail and it would have nothing to do with the kkk. Its amazing that they throw that around here as most kkk and their leaders were DEMOCRATS. Remember George Wallace?! The only way to absolute chamge is term limits and forced changing of seats in the house and senate.
Put me in the secedimg line.
Revolution at the polls !!!!! Vote THEM OUT !
February 27th, 2009 at 11:51 am
Remember when Al Gore Sr. voted aginst the civil rights act ???? LOL!!!!! Remember Robt. Byrd was a KKK organizer ????? LOL !!!!
OH how they forget the real FACTS them wascal liberals ! LOL !
February 27th, 2009 at 11:55 am
Southerngirl,
Nowhere in the US Constitution does it say we have a right to not be offended.
America has turned into a nation of whiners. Like a bunch of little kids telling on Johnnie because Billy called him a name. Grow up America!!!
February 27th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
History lesson: Southern seegationists were Democrats (Dixiecrats) until the 1960’s, when the Democratic Party led by Lyndon Johnson threw in with Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement. When LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, he said that the Democratic Party had “just lost the South for a generation”. He was prophetic; egged on by Nixon’s “Southern strategy” and the skillful use of code words such as “states rights” by Republicans such as Ronald Reagan (remember him kicking off his campaign for Pesident in Philadelphia, Mississippi, where Goodman, Schwerner and Cheney were murdered? I do), the Republicans won over the southern segregationists.
We Democrats know our past. We confronted it at great sacrifice to our party’s success for a generation, just as LBJ predicted. But we’ve emerged much stronger.
Meanwhile, Republicans are now paying the cost of throwing in so completely with southern conservatism. You’ve driven out your moderate wing and are threatening to become a small, regional Party. Eventually you too will have to confront your past. You’ll have to accept, for example, that whatever you think the confederate flag stands for, black Amricans think it stands for slavery, lynchings and jim crow. And you’ll have to change and adapt. If you don’t, you’ll go the way of every dinosaur.
February 27th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
The Southern states flew the American flag for years while still holding slaves. Why is our flag today not held in contempt by black Americans? Were there not lynchings in the North also? Weren’t slaves held by Northerners also? I guess I can understand their thinking on the Confederate flag, but isn’t the right to use that flag protected?
February 27th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
BarryB, you can bet right-wing militias are still alive and well in the South, waiting for their next chance at creating another Oklahoma City disaster.
February 27th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
“You’ll have to accept, for example, that whatever you think the confederate flag stands for, black Amricans think it stands for slavery, lynchings and jim crow. And you’ll have to change and adapt. If you don’t, you’ll go the way of every dinosaur”
Btw I’m predominantly a liberal and therefore apologize for not fitting your neat classification.
Who’s ignorant here, someone who chooses to prejudge regardless of context or someone who wants to express who they are and to celebrate their culture without being racist in any way.
Nevertheless you’re maybe right that the flag gets more and more restrictions and is eventually ‘banned’ altogether. It doesn’t in any way help solve racism though and instead creates yet more divisions when what we need is more tolerance and understanding.
February 27th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
“The Southern states flew the American flag for years while still holding slaves. Why is our flag today not held in contempt by black Americans? Were there not lynchings in the North also? Weren’t slaves held by Northerners also? I guess I can understand their thinking on the Confederate flag, but isn’t the right to use that flag protected?” <-Willy
I believe Pres. Obama made a good point about the Confederate flag. “It belongs in a museum”. There may have been more to it. This was said during the campaign trail. Between Obama, Huckabee, McCain and Romney, I’d say that Obama had the right idea.
I will admit that Huckabee’s comment was quite colorful. :) I am glad he’s on Fox and not at the White House. There is a time and a place.
February 27th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Willy: Is that a serious question? The American flag may have originally stood for slavery, but Lincoln converted it into the symbol for emancipation. If your question is real rather than rhetorical, you have a rather poor understanding of American history.
Lee: There is a big difference between banning the confederate flag and understanding what it symbolizes to a whole class of Americans. I’m calling for the former, not the latter. And to deny that the confederate flag does, in fact, have a history rooted in slavery, lynching and jim crow (as well as other, more benign traditions) is to deny historical fact.
I’m all for yor right to wave the confederate flag. Just don’t lie to yourself about what it symbolizes to millions of your fellow citizens. Expecting tolerance from people by waving what they see as a symbol of their historical oppression is akin to waving a red flag in front of a bull and asking him not to charge.
February 27th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
The second sentence to Lee above should read: I’m calling for the latter, not the former.
February 27th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
LL,
The flag itself was used in an era of slavery but again the civil war was not fought over slavery. Most of the negative aspects stem from the appropriation by white supremacists like the KKK.
The people I know who are proud of the flag, do not take any pride in the racial oppression committed by many of their ancestors.
It’s sad that most African-American’s cannot forget the association with the KKK etc, but again, forcing someone to suppress part of their culture, even though they meant no harm to anyone, doesn’t heal divisions, it creates them.
February 27th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
Lee: You are, to coin a phrase, whitewashing history. Slavery was, in fact, the root cause of the Civil War, though that was frequently disguised by successionists as being as a series of disputes over “states rights”. As for the confederate flag only representing racism because it was used by the Ku Klux Klan, this ignores its rebirth as a symbol of Southern resistance to the elimination of Jim Crow laws. Georgia, for example, did not use the Confederate symbol as part of its State Flag until 1956, when it was adopted in response to Brown v. Board. Here’s what then-Governor Marvin Griffin said in his 1956 “state of the state” address:
“There will be no mixing of the races in the public schools and college classrooms of Georgia anywhere or at any time as long as I am governor….All attempts to mix the races, whether they be in the classrooms, on the playgrounds, in public conveyances or in any other area of close personal contact on terms of equity, peril the mores of the South….the tragic decision of the United States Supreme Court on May 17, 1954, poses a threat to the unparalleled harmony and growth that we have attained here in the South for both races under the framework of established customs. Day by day, Georgia moves nearer a showdown with this Federal Supreme Court – a tyrannical court ruthlessly seeking to usurp control of state-created, state-developed, and state-financed schools and colleges….The next portent looming on the horizon is a further declaration that a State’s power to prohibit mixed marriages is unconstitutional.”
Maybe your buddies who wave the flag today reject racism. But past generations used it as a racist symbol. True tolerance necessitates a regognition that sometimes your own perceptions are wrong.
February 27th, 2009 at 6:02 pm
Heck, the Dukes of Hazzard had the Confederate flag painted on the General Lee.
The American flag never stood for slavery. It was and still is today a symbol of freedom. The Confederate flag was picked by the South as their standard plain and simple.
February 27th, 2009 at 6:42 pm
LL,
Why is it that the confederates offered to free all slaves in return for independence? Doesn’t fit well really with the idea that thats what they were fighting for does it? Then of course there is even Jefferson Davis himself:
“Mr. Davis, in conversation with a Yankee spy, named Edward Kirk, is reported by said spy to have said, “We are not fighting for slavery; we are fighting for independence.” ”
Of course he was lying right.. Nothing to do with that.. all about slavery, slavery , slavery because the southern states really didn’t care about independence..
And the cotton tariffs etc etc. You may well know law but you have a poor grasp of history and its you who are attempting to rewrite it there, not me.
There is the definitive set of books on this by Shelby Foote but I personally liked the books written by Jeff/Michael Shaara as they set the scene better imo. However, either way you need to do some more research there..
As for the continued oppression of African-American’s, yes I’m well aware of Jim Crow laws but linking this to the confederate flag is weak at best. It was added in 1956 to Georgia’s flag but not as a slight to African-American’s but to celebrate Georgia’s heritage. Show me some real evidence they changed the flag to specifically demonstrate racial hatred.
Unfortunately once again, people made the association of confederacy=slavery, ergo offensive, so it was for the same incorrect reasons that the objections came.
“True tolerance necessitates a regognition that sometimes your own perceptions are wrong.”
I’m all for that.. I certainly understand it gets the hackles of most African-Americans and thats sad. But how about teaching the real history of the flag instead of just slavery, slavery , slavery when the flag actually has little to do with it.
Btw.. maybe you should also consider a similar plan to abolish Oakland Raiders jackets.. or maybe Texas Longhorn shirts should be banned in Oklahoma.. I mean forget the original symbol/meaning right? It’s offensive to large numbers of people so we should suppress them, right..
February 27th, 2009 at 7:01 pm
Btw,
I’m not even a Southerner (although my wife is, and I live just east of Biloxi,MS). I don’t fly the flag personally or have any bumper stickers.
But knowing what I do about why many Southerners do fly it and express themselves in that way, I fully believe they have absolutely the right to do so in this country.
February 27th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
I have the right to burn that damn flag as well and spit on it and GOD BLESS GEN. GRANT.
February 28th, 2009 at 7:13 am
go ahead Steve
February 28th, 2009 at 9:10 am
unless of course you want to actually steal their flag and burn it…then you’d be breaking some laws, and I can’t condone that, feel free to buy your own flag and burn it, spit on it and God Bless General Grant.
February 28th, 2009 at 9:11 am
I don,t care for the rebel flag. Yes i sounded a bit to radical,but that flag is not the American flag.
Being as dark as coal,some folks wear it just to wear it and others folks have a dark evil agenda in expressing hate with that flag.
Just saying,if some1 has the right to fly it,i have the right to burn and spit on it.
February 28th, 2009 at 9:29 am
southernlib,
You aren’t the only southern woman on this board. I am not ashamed of the confederate flag at all. I am not racist either. The flag has more to it than racism. I had a lot of ancestors who were NOT slave owners who fought on the side of the south in the civil war.
How does everyone feel about folks wearing the other X?
February 28th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
Lee,
You reveal your own blind spot about the confederate flag when you refuse to acknowledge that it was added to the Georgia state flag as part of the South’s resistance to Brown v. Board. Just as you have convinced yourself that the history of the Confederacy is something other than what it is. Forget about the disputes over the westward expansion and whether Kansas would be admitted as a “slave” state or a “free” state; ignore the disputes over the Fugitive Slave Law and the Dred Scott decision; disregard Harper’s Ferry and the north-south split of the Democratic Party triggered by southern demands for a “slave code” in 1859; pretend the dispute over the Corwin Amendment was not a trigger for secession; ignore the Texas Declaration of Causes for Secession, which said that the non-slave-holding states were “proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color”; forget the “Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union”, which explicitly listed as reasons for secession the failure of Northern stastes to uphold the Fugitive Slave Law and the election “of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery”…I could go on…but your mind is made up.
Frivolous comparisons to items such as Oakland Raiders jackets (or in my case, USC jackets, as I am a UCLA alum) reveal your disregard of historical fact and trivializes the altogether reasonable feelings of black Americans toward the Confederate flag. It is sad that you have convinced yourself of the “truth” about something so obviously disproven.
February 28th, 2009 at 6:29 pm
My ancestors fought for the winning side and won.Yes sir master my — . Who,s southern pride,not mine as a person from the south. Stars and Bars don,t represent me.
February 28th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
LL,
I’m not the one whose not being objective here. Was slavery a factor in the civil war? Absolutely.. Was it a major factor or _the_ factor? No.. not at all, it was more economical but YOU seem to want to ignore that as YOUR mind is made up it was slavery and you conveniently ignored the facts I already gave you to support this (e.g The South offered freedom for all slaves in return for independence)..
But why take my non-biased word for it.. check historians yourself (Shelby Foote is recognized as the most definitive) and you’ll find you are wrong, or else read some books/do some research as you apparently need it..
Was the flag used by opponents of desegregation?, sure, I’ll concede that in the same way it was used by the KKK but its a stretch to say that two years after the judgement (Brown vs Board) the incorporation into the state flag was specifically done to antagonise African Americans.
And btw many people don’t consider the Oakland Raider’s Jackets ‘frivolous’ (or Texas Longhorns etc)..
Sadly, they take them very seriously and many people have been killed over symbols just like that.
The lesson here is context is everything. The main symbol of the KKK (as I’ve also previously tried to inform you) is the Christian cross. Yet noone would want to ban that symbol because it also has many positive meanings.
Similarly, the confederate flag today is used by 99% of the bearers as a positive acknowledgement of their southern culture and heritage, not in any way as a slight/insult to other citizens.
March 1st, 2009 at 3:59 am
LEE ,YOU ARE WRONG.
March 1st, 2009 at 7:00 am
LEE
You are not only wrong,but extremly wrong. Before Lincoln was elected 7 states left the Union because he was againist the expansion of slavery.
Anti-slavery states vs slave owning states was already at a boil and over flowing in Kansas and Missouri as in John Brown raiding Harper,s Ferry in 1859.
The south wanted to expand slavery into areas that where not states yet and into newly form states.
W VA left VA as well. Linclonwanted to hold the Union togather,but the state of SOUTH CAR. fired the 1st shots.
For more insight LEE ,go to Wikipedia and other sites talking about this war,but slavery was the driving force behine it.
March 1st, 2009 at 7:21 am
Lee,
What do you think fueled the economy of the South? It was both the slave trade and slaves working on the plantations. Slavery was an integral part of the agrarian economy of the Southern states.
Take out a major linchpin and you’ll see an economic system go downhill.
State Rights is a second issue. Shouldc certain issues be left to the States to deal with or not? This same issue was at play during the Civil Rights. It is why Sen. Barry Goldwater ran into trouble with his own party. From what I’ve read, Sen. Goldwater was in favor of a lot of the Civil Rights reforms; however he wanted the changes to occur at the State level and not the Federal level.
Others in the Republican Party wanted it to be done on the Federal level. Why? Because they didn’t trust the States to make the right decision and they had just cause. Rember the Dixiecrats?
There is also an issue of State pride. Even if the people of a Southern state agree that something is wrong, they don’t like the Federal government forcing them to do so. Pride can easily get in the way of doing what is right. Why do you think Gov. Mike Huckabee got so much flak for his flagpole comment.
Steve,
Did I miss anything?
March 1st, 2009 at 8:00 am
Steve,
You are angry and apparently too blinded by this to objectively look at the data
e.g for the truth behind Georgia’s flag..
http://www.scvcamp469-nbf.com/Q&A/Georgia%20Flag.htm
Or for facts on the cause of the civil war,
http://ngeorgia.com/history/why.html
http://www.factasy.com/civil_war/2008/02/25/was_war_fought_over_slavery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War
I deliberately included links which provide arguments for both slavery as the cause and why slavery was a peripheral issue to be fair. However, I believe when you look at all the arguments and research them, you’ll come to the same conclusion I did i.e that slavery did not cause the civil war.
I have a great deal of respect for our Attorney General and his ‘nation of cowards’ comment really resonated with me. Dr King was a great man and helped move our country forward significantly on acknowledging and dealing with Racism.
Unfortunately, people like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson have twisted Dr King’s message to the point where we have modern day witch-hunts (e.g New York Post Cartoonist, or Jena) where the facts don’t really matter and where only one side is considered.
As a result, people like me who have never knowingly performed a racial act in mind or body feel extra paranoid about saying something non-PC and having it come across as a racial slur.
This flag issue is a good example.. I’m well aware that by my comments there may be quite a few people who are thinking that I’m ‘ignorant’ or non-sensitive to African-Americans. But I do acknowledge the flag angers African-Americans and I have no desire to offend them or hurt their feelings. I simply think that anger and bitterness here is clouding cold reason and I personally feel the right thing to do is to point this out and not silently join those conducting the witch-hunt.
Again, if it isn’t clear, I’m totally against racism and acknowledge that African-Americans in particular have a tragic history of crimes committed against them. However, we need to stop these witch-hunts as the issue is not about ‘educating America’ anymore, it needs to be about healing and ‘mutual’ tolerance.
March 1st, 2009 at 8:13 am
BUMPS BROTHER BARRYB ! I have fussed ,debated about dixiecrats.
If the states where still left up to decide on issues. 1 stae would allow this,another you can not do that and so forth.
Alot of folks claim southern pride with the STARS and BARS,but pride for who? Not my pride being as dark as coal. No sir,i will not fetch you a mint julip and master my ___ !
We debated over gay rights and that issue will remain 1 else it,s done on the federal level. The same making pot legal.
To be honest with you,i have alot of friends that wear the rebel flag without making it a issue,it,s a southern thing. I live in Ky.
My beef with the GOP ,that the party has lost a strong black voice. Nixon received 35% of the black vote and Reagan was a dixiecrat from the west. The party is without a voice and rejects GEN IKE,FORD,ROCKAFELLER and the GOVINATOR and brands them liberal.
The party wants alot of issues to go back to the state level,but i don,t them and they will reverse alot of issues that has made positive progress.
GOP is mean spirited and out of touch and out of site. They where the leaders of civil rights,abrotins,small gov,t but wise spending. The current leadership is run by members that where rasied up by dixiecrats.
March 1st, 2009 at 8:38 am
I give you an irony.
There are people who called themselves “social conservative” and yet are liberal.
This is what i mean. You’re an agent of change; hence the very basic definition of “liberal”.
Conservative hate change. Thwy would see as little as possible. This includes good change and bad change.
No wonder I’m not at home with these guys. The same is true of my friends in the social conservative (christian, and jewish communities). I don’t know of the others.
Oh irony!
March 1st, 2009 at 9:28 am
BUMP ! I findd myself liberal on some issues and conservative on other issues.
At 1 time you both parties nto very different,but war in Nam,civil rights,women rights the DNC became out of sink because our nation was not ready for change or perhaps our nation was going to fast for some Americans.
Reagan came along saying we need to go back in time core and moral idealism and it came along with Carter because alot of Americans felt we lost our morals due to Nixon.
Reagan came along with that voice and style of conservatism that split the country. Reagan also created independents that disagree with his economic polices,but where in sink with his foregin policy due to the cold war because the democrats where deem weak due to the outrage over the war in Nam.
That brand of conservatism held on because of the cold war. The 1st Gulf War came along and it still held on.
The down fall for that sort of conservatism came because of economics but the country remain split due to foregin policy that i feel is their strongest area.A hardline stance againist cival right measures like jobs,women rights bit the GOP in the ass when Bill Clinton came along.
In my opinion , the GOP had no clue that our nation has became more open minded. That women ,blacks and mainly white men start having a different view point regarding our nation.
White men in a huge way started to see those issues on civil and women rights took the right turn. That fear and smear was no longer the answer. That all of the protest in the sixties became full circle and our nation was far more open minded and the GOP became lost as a mean party lead my right wing radio talk show host.
The 2000 election left a extremly sour taste on our nation and Bush along with Cheney where brutal using conservative idealism along with the right wing church that our nation was more than smalltown values and rural America.
That fear and smer worked againist Kerry due to the 2nd Gulf war and 9/11. What hurt the GOP this time,they created foregin policy blunders by being hatefull,lying about WMD,s and a go it alone apporach.
The killer came at their weakest point,that is the economy and a open minded nation that rejected wedge issues,mean spirited agenda with smear and elected our 1st black president in Obama.
BARRYB,is a logical viewpoint ?
March 1st, 2009 at 10:16 am
steve…i’m pretty sure it should be in sync/out of sync, as in synchronized…
And the one bad thing that happened because of the Civil War is that the federal gov. was suddenly granted unprecedented control over the states. A lot of our federal agencies and such would have been impossible pre civil-war because they really push the bounds of the constitution.
and an interesting point if anyone wants to challenge it in court. West Virginia was never created properly per the U.S. constitution.
March 1st, 2009 at 6:08 pm
Something had to be,the states created the civil war and the feds had to step in. Andrew Johnson overturn alot of Abe,s polices and set race relations back a 100 years. As in Jim Crow laws.
Those polices came to a head in the late 50,s and into the 60,s. Truman started the ball rolling in 1948 with the Arm Forces by making the services intergrated. Fully because of the Korean War.
Southern democrats fled the party(dixiecrats) into the GOP and a 3rd party somewhat. That voice was lost till Reagan (an ex-dixiecrat from the west saying the democrat left him)came along and the dixiecrats took over the GOP.
As of today the base of the GOP is down south. The party has become a regional party.
March 1st, 2009 at 7:20 pm
LEE
My point is the no.1 cause and by far the main cause was slavery. Since you did your research on wikipedia,they stated 7 states left the Union due to election of Honest Abe and his standce on slavery.
Over the last few years alot historians have tried to debunk the cause of the civil war,but slavery was the driving force of it.
Since you did your research on wikipedia. Kansas was raided by Missouri because pro-slavevery people wanted Kansas to become a slave state. John Brown should rang a bell.
As for the flag,i never said anything about the reason on that flag becoming the battle flag for the south. I REALIZE THEY USED SEVERAL FLAGS AS WELL.
My beef with the star and bars is that some white people say my southern history. As a black person from the south,my southern history tells me to hate that freaking flag and with reason. As i read on 1 post,i don,t wear and support the other x as well. That is not my faith and i don,t used those teachings of Malcom x.
You have your rights to love that flag and i have my rights to hate that flag. When i see that flag,it is used people with pointed caps on in clown outfits and people dressed up in ss storm trooper outfits like it,s holloween going on. That the civil war had nothing to do with my dislike of it. It,s the afternafth of that use.
Being down on Sharpton and Jackson is warrent at times,but you have loco right wing preachers out their starting bullcrap as well.
My overall point,you said the flag reminds you of your southern history and i am saying no sir,you are not my master and go fix that mint julip yourself and fix me 1 why you are at it.
March 2nd, 2009 at 8:35 am