Dueling Speeches
Dick Cheney purposely schedule his American Enterprise Institute torture speech to begin the moment President Obama finished his. Can you imagine the reaction if Al Gore spoke had done the same thing in response to a Bush speech? Who’s wrong and who’s right isn’t the only question here? How appropriate is it for VP who just concluded his term to inject himself into the bloodstream as a new administration is taking hold? It’s certainly not customary.
In each venue, the speaker appeared pointedly aware of his adversary. Moments after Obama finished speaking, Cheney was introduced by an AEI official who claimed to know that Obama had purposely scheduled his speech to coincide with Cheney’s.
How nice that they can take turns in such an orderly fashion. Here are some of the dueling talking points.
- Obama: sharply criticized “political posturing” over his efforts to close the Guantanamo prison camp and rebutted claims in Congress from lawmakers of both parties that bringing terrorist suspects to the United States to stand trial would endanger national security.
- Cheney: “You don’t want to call them enemy combatants? Fine. Call them what you want — just don’t bring them into the United States.”
- Obama: “I believe with every fiber of my being that in the long run we also cannot keep this country safe unless we enlist the power of our most fundamental values.”
- Cheney: “People who consistently distort the truth” [about the interrogations] “are in no position to lecture anyone about ‘values.’ “
- Cheney:”To completely rule out enhanced interrogation methods in the future is unwise in the extreme. It is recklessness cloaked in righteousness, and would make the American people less safe.”
- Obama: “Where terrorists offer only the injustice of disorder and destruction, America must demonstrate that our values and institutions are more resilient than a hateful ideology.”
- Obama: “We do need to update our institutions to deal with this threat…with an abiding confidence in the rule of law and due process; in checks and balances and accountability.”
- Cheney: “In the fight against terrorism, there is no middle ground, and half-measures keep you half exposed.”
- Cheney: “For all the partisan anger that still lingers, our administration will stand up well in history — not despite our actions after 9/11, but because of them.”
- Obama: “We are cleaning up something that is, quite simply, a mess; a misguided experiment that has left in its wake a flood of legal challenges that my administration is forced to deal with on a constant basis.”
- Obama: “Now, I know some have argued that brutal methods like waterboarding were necessary to keep us safe. I could not disagree more. As commander in chief, I see the intelligence. I bear the responsibility for keeping this country safe. And I categorically reject the assertion that these are the most effective means of interrogation.”
- Cheney: “They were legal, essential, justified, successful and the right thing to do. They prevented the violent death of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of innocent people.”
I’m glad ol’Dick keeps yappin’. He and Rush are killing the GOP. The more they talk, the easier it is for democrats to say they represent the GOP during the upcoming elections.
Daddio Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 6:49 pm
I see no substance in your remarks. How does that add to this debate?
crh3e Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 8:20 pm
The debate was settled in last year’s election.
bobfrommadison Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Really? I did not know that Mr. Cheney ran last year. I would have gladly voted for him.
As it is, he is now speaking the truth as a private citizen while Obama lays down a thick layer of manure.
Please tell me what would prevent any defense attorney to legitimately claim his terrorist client is unable to receive a fair trial in the U.S.? Do you believe that the president, being a world class constitutional scholar, has not considered this? I believe he has, (since he is clearly the most intelligent commander-in-chief of all time).
And while our president appeases everyone that is not American, you should understand his strategy is one that is of preparation to lose. (A
crh3e Reply:
May 23rd, 2009 at 3:57 pm
Well even if you’d like to ignore last year’s landslide victory for obama all you have to do is look at the polls. The majority of this country think it is wrong to torture. Let’s move on to protecting Americans in ways much wiser. You assertion that Cheney is speaking the truth is far-fetched. Your argument about a defense attorney claiming that his client is unable to receive a fair trial is a good argument for not torturing in the first place. I should understand Obama’s strategy is one that is preparation to lose what? If you want to see the definition of “lose” just look in the rearview mirror bud.
May 21st, 2009 at 6:29 pm
Wow. Cheney really wants to cover his ass. Ain’t working. CRH3E is right… keep Dick yappin’. He’s ridding the Republican party of the electorate.
Daddio Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 6:50 pm
Same for what I just said to CRH3E Vegaslib.
VegasLib Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 8:53 pm
Daddio,
What’s the debate? Alls I said is Dick should keep abusing his right to Free Speech. If anything, that’s only a debate starter.
Guys,
Check this out: RT @RonReaganShow: Ron slams Limbaugh – and people like it! http://bit.ly/PerOG
Ron Reagan ( Ronald Reagan’s son ) word bitch-slaps (Lord) Limbaugh. (:
Daddio Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 9:01 am
“…abusing his right to Free Speech.”–Vegaslib
How is VP Cheney “abusing his right to Free Speech”?
average james Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:14 pm
What’s up Vegas ?
Yep, Darth Cheney is at it again. The man is classless.
He is more vocal now in pre-emtive defense, than during his time as vice pres..
Me thinks thou dost protest too much.
May 21st, 2009 at 6:38 pm
“They were legal, essential, justified, successful…”
Actually other than rhetoric, I havent heard any real evidence that corroborates any of those 4, in ALL of the debate I have heard on this topic, leave alone from Cheney.
“They prevented the violent death of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of innocent people.”
Havent heard any evidence for that either.
goliath43 Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 6:51 pm
U.S. Thwarts 19 Terrorist Attacks Against America Since 9/11
Do you need the link or can you google it yourself
Daddio Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 6:56 pm
I agree Goliath. Our country has done an exceptional job in thwarting more attacks since 9/11. But there will be no credit given to Bush or America for that success. No credit given from liberals.
Daddio Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 6:58 pm
Didn’t we just thwart another one in New York? I thought so.
OldLefty Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:07 pm
They also foiled Operation Bojinka, and 2000 millennium bombing of four sites in Jordan, and the bombing of LAX.
Conservatives only cared about Monica.
average james Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:09 pm
Thwarted in New York, for sure.
Was that intel gained through torture ?
Daddio Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:09 pm
We’re not talking about Clinton and his sexual encounters. Get up to speed here, ok.
average james Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:10 pm
How many times must we thank Bush43 and his administration ?
Did you just miss all the thanking going on around here ?
Daddio Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:12 pm
Don’t know James but whatever techniques they use, if it works, I’m all for keeping America and Americans safe.
RDM Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:22 pm
Old Lefty said: ” Conservatives only cared about Monica”.
Not true. We cared about Black Hawk Down. The issue was our CaCa leader who got a BJ instead of doing his job.
TDro319 Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 10:35 pm
“Our country has done an exceptional job in thwarting more attacks since 9/11.”
Yep. They did an exceptional job in thwarting terrorist attacks – except the most destructive one on 9/11
Daddio Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 9:03 am
Yep, just as FDR thwarted the attack on Pearl Harbor in Dec. 1941. A most destructive one indeed.
TDro319 Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 1:50 pm
“Yep, just as FDR thwarted the attack on Pearl Harbor in Dec. 1941. A most destructive one indeed.”
Wow. You really have nothing, do you. For the record, there’s no proof that FDR had any advanced warning that the Japanese were going to attack (unlike the Dickster).
Sarah Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 10:45 am
Goliath: “U.S. Thwarts 19 Terrorist Attacks Against America Since 9/11
Do you need the link or can you google it yourself”
Sure, I can google a story written by a right-wing Republican think-tank. But as soon as I saw it was written by a Republican think-tank, I remembered my K-12 and college lessons about critical thinking, and formed the impression it might not actually be an unbiased or neutral presentation of fact. In fact, given the lies of the Republican Party of late, it might not contain any facts at all.
Daddio Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 6:52 pm
:Maybe if Obama would declassify the results of the EIT’s and release them, all of them, we might find out exactly the results of the EIT’s.
Sound fair enough Karthik?
TDro319 Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 10:43 pm
Why was it classified information in the first place? After all, if torture was so successful, wouldn’t the Dick want to share his findings with the American people?
OldLefty Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:44 pm
Mogadishu was started by Bush Sr, and Clinton was in office about the same amount of time that Bush was for 9/1`1, and you guys say it was too soon for him to be responsible.
Many say that Bush was busy planning Iraq and vacationing to do his job.
pierre Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 10:47 pm
Not correct!!!
The first world trade center attack occured
on Feb. 26,1993. And that’s 1-month and 6 days
after Clinton was sworned in as president.
Do the math ! stop it.
May 21st, 2009 at 6:41 pm
Those who have no ideas or answers usually blame those who went before them.
This is a good debate and both sides deserve the respect to have their views heard.
OldLefty Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:45 pm
That’s what the rigt wing did, everythig was Clintons fault.
Entire carrers were built on it.
average james Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:52 pm
I’m for that Daddio, openess, you know, glasnost.
TDro319 Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 10:36 pm
“Those who have no ideas or answers usually blame those who went before them.”
Oh boy! That’s the truth! The right hasn’t stopped blaming Clinton for the screwups of the last eight years.
Daddio Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 9:05 am
YAWN!!! ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!
Oh, did you say something TDro? Sorry, I dozed off.
TDro319 Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 1:56 pm
“Oh, did you say something TDro? Sorry, I dozed off.”
Pretty good, Daddio. Why don’t you admit that you have nothing and instead are gonna post a stupid retort?
Besides, you brough it up. Correct me if I’m wrong but your exact words were: “Those who have no ideas or answers usually blame those who went before them”
May 21st, 2009 at 6:48 pm
I didnt hear you give any answers Daddido.
This isnt a good debate.
The people who ordered the war in Iraq,the people who ordered the illegal torture of innocent people havent offered any evidence to their claims, and they continue to repeat “they were terrorists because we say so”. And you say this is a debate, leave alone good?
Daddio Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 6:53 pm
The only answer I have right now is to Obama to release the memos on the results of the EIT’s and then we can go from there.
average james Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:01 pm
Daddio,
Release the memos against his military advisors advice ?
I’m for releasing the memos and photos and owning up to this, as a nation, in front of God and everybody.
Just to be clear-release them in entirety, even though his military advisors asked him not to.
Is that what you are saying ?
Daddio Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:06 pm
Obama released the so-called torture memos against his military advisors advice.
Since he released our memos on our techniques then releasing the outcome of those techniques is not only impearative but wise. The American people need to see them so that we can see the other side of this argument. TRANSPERACY.
OldLefty Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:15 pm
It’s important that we remain a nation of laws, otherwise we become a Banana republic.
The FBI interrogator, Ali Soufan who got Abu Zubaydah to give up Khalid Sheikh said he clammed up when he started the Cheney way.
Bernie-in-Michigan Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:18 pm
James, Obama was advised by his military staff to NOT release the pictures. Why he won’t release the memos regrading the intel learned from EITs is anyone’s guess.
I think if he weren’t prepared to release everything may-be he shouldn’t have released anything.
average james Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:18 pm
Simpatico bro Daddio.
Let’s see em.
Daddio Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:21 pm
Exactly my point Bernie. You can’t release just one part, the part that makes you look good and ignore the other part that just might justify the actions.
Politics. Pure politics.
average james Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:06 pm
Karthiks,
Just because the right keeps saying it over and over again does not make it so. I do not believe Cheney when he says that torture produced all these hot leads.
Cheney has lied in the past…..alot. Hard to believe the man. I smell a rat, a desperate rat.
Daddio Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:07 pm
Another good reason to release the memos showing the results of the interrogations.
goliath43 Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:08 pm
Throwing out claims doesn’t make them true either.
Illegal torture- noone was tortured interrogated yes
Innocent civilians- what civilians enemy combatants taken off the battlefield or captured terrorist. they weren’t captured for jaywalking
average james Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:33 pm
Touche Goliath.
average james Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:37 pm
Except for the torture comment. On that comment I retract my touche. The other touches can stand.
average james Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:43 pm
Have I made myself perfectly clear ?
May 21st, 2009 at 6:51 pm
Shame on them both. The acting President vs the previous VP. I have never seen anything like it. One party bashing the other for their policies, the other defending their actions. No matter which side your on… This is not good!
Bernie-in-Michigan Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:22 pm
And, quite frankly makes Obama look weak.
Cheney’s speech had been scheduled for weeks. Obama scrambled this week to make his speech on the same day after the Gitmo debate began heading south.
Daddio Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:24 pm
Politics Bernie. Pure politics. Playing politics with our national security.
OldLefty Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:52 pm
Frankly, I think Cheney looks like a pitiful little man shaking his tiny little fist, screaming that he was not a crook.
average james Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 8:03 pm
Ah yes,
I am not a crook !
Sarah Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 10:49 am
Complete agreement. Pelosi, Cheney, Obama…The Bush-Cheney administration tortured and Guantanamo’s got to be emptied, with the thoroughly-pissed-off inmates kept somewhere safe and secure, after they’ve received a fair(er) trial.
Let’s just get the show on the road. Bush and Cheney did it, they don’t regret it, and that era is mercifully over.
May 21st, 2009 at 7:02 pm
Blatant Discrimination
I was 4 wheeling yesterday and stopped to grab a brew and some chicken wings. Once again discrimination reared it’s ugly head. On the wall was a sign that read: Men–no shirt –no service. Women–no shirt–Free Drinks.
Will it ever end?
average james Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Hehehe,
Geez RDM—No, I don’t imagine it will ever end.
RDM Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:39 pm
See ya around next week AJ. I was just trying to lighten things up a little.
average james Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:41 pm
You should know that you acheived a modicom of success on the lighten up front. Seeyabro.
May 21st, 2009 at 7:08 pm
average james.
I dont believe Cheney either.
To make my belief clear, I believe the Guantanamo tortures did not avert even one single terrorist attempt.
Daddio Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:15 pm
The memos guys, Obama must release the memos and that should solve most of this debate whether EIT’s really work.
Why are liberals so afraid of what might be in those memos that they don’t want them released? No problem from you when Obama release the memos showing our enemies the techniques we use to get info.
average james Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:27 pm
I am not afraid, and I am not aware of any liberals that are afraid of releasing these memos.
I still argue that even if there was intel gained(which I have trouble believing) the methods in question were wrong. No matter how effective they may be proven to be, they are wrong.
Executing car thieves on the spot would be effective, but wrong. The ends does not justify the means in civil society.
May 21st, 2009 at 7:11 pm
“You don’t want to call them enemy combatants? Fine. Call them what you want — just don’t bring them into the United States.”
Yet another proof of the cowardice of the radical rightwing extremists.
““People who consistently distort the truth” [about the interrogations] “are in no position to lecture anyone about ‘values.’”
Take a look in the mirror, Dick.
““They were legal, essential, justified, successful and the right thing to do. They prevented the violent death of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of innocent people.””
Crimes against humanity and lies, lies, lies.
average james Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:35 pm
Rocky,
I agree on all three.
May 21st, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Daddido. Your argument is laughably silly.
Say Cheney and I are playing Poker.
Cheney says he has Pocket Aces.
I go all in, turn over my kings, and ask him to show.
Onus is on HIM to show that he has Aces…get it?
The onus is on Cheney to PROVE his statements, because
He is the one being held accountable. NOT people who are criticizing his actions.
If you believe Cheney isnt accountable to the people of the country say so in as many words. Dont do this childish Fox News,Hannity approach of turning the accountability ownership on its head, and asking me to prove that there were no terrorist attacks prevented by the interrogations. Mine is a BELIEF. I do NOT have access to classified information.
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 3:21 am
Onus is on HIM to show that he has Aces…get it?
The onus is on Cheney to PROVE his statements, because
—
According to Cheney the proof is in the form of some classified documents that he has asked to be declassified and released. Do you think he should break into the national archives or wherever they are?
My personal opinion is that I don’t care if it worked or not, torture is wrong and shouldn’t be used. Waterboarding is torture and is wrong and shouldn’t be used.
But saying the onus is on Cheney then ignore the fact that his proof is classified information is disengenious…at best.
May 21st, 2009 at 7:37 pm
Yet another proof of the cowardice of the radical rightwing extremists.
Perhaps it would be illuminating to see how then Senators Clinton and Biden voted on this same issue?
The onus is on Cheney to PROVE his statements
He is claiming the proof is in the memos. And The Blessed Leader won’t show. So, because of classification, it on Obama to show.
May 21st, 2009 at 7:43 pm
If he wants to make that claim, he should have defended his actions when he was in power. Not tell the people “Just trust me.”
Who asked him to not release classified documents then?Its not like people didnt question the Bush administration even then.
May 21st, 2009 at 7:49 pm
Rocky, how do you define “Crimes against Humanity”?
Hint you may wish to google Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court
Rocky, write your congressperson and tell them you want any Gitmo terrorist found not guilty in this country to live right next door to YOU. Until you hold up your hand saying you want them living next door to YOUR family, your wife, your children your parents you have no right to say they must live next door to anyone else.
average james Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Come on Bernie,
That argument is just silly—You should write your congressman and request they live next to you !! Silly man, silly.
Would you have a problem with an inmate from Gitmo being found innocent and consequently released period?
May 21st, 2009 at 7:51 pm
Who asked him to not release classified documents then?
His request to release them was a reaction to The Blessed Leader releasing the interrogation memos.
OldLefty Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 7:57 pm
His request to release them was a reaction to The Blessed Leader releasing the interrogation memos.
I thought Bush’s emails were destroyed.
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 3:23 am
I haven’t heard about any e-mails being destroyed, however if they were it’s a federal offense, All presidential communication is considered property of the US and is applicable to disclosure laws. That is why Bush ceased using personal e-mail during his presidency.
May 21st, 2009 at 7:53 pm
Obama: “Where terrorists offer only the injustice of disorder and destruction, America must demonstrate that our values and institutions are more resilient than a hateful ideology.”
Hahahahahaha -inhale- hahahahahahahaha
Let us not forget that the Blessed Leader is detaining combatants, in military prisons, with no plans to ever charge them, release them or free them. His lawyers are using the same arguments used by Dubya.
So far, the ONLY discernible difference between Blessed Leader and Dubya is this Gitmo thang. And thanks to the Dems in the Senate, Obama isn’t going to release them for years…..
OldLefty Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 8:03 pm
Obama will give more legal protections than Blessed Leader gave.
But aren’t you glad that liberals oppose him instead of walking in lock step?
May 21st, 2009 at 7:57 pm
Would you have a problem with an inmate from Gitmo being found innocent and consequently released period?
So, what you mean is:
“If an inmate from Gitmo, captured in battle with weapons on him, being found innocent in an American Civilian court presided over by an Obama appointed Judge be released in America?”
No.
OldLefty Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 8:18 pm
What about Afgan villagers sold by warlords for reward money, or people picked up urban searchs?
How do you know if they had weapons if they don’t get due process?
average james Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 8:24 pm
Permit me to clarify,
If a detainee at Gitmo is in fact taken to trial and aquitted/found not guilty, would you oppose his release into the states(provided he has a green card or necessary paperwork) ?
How can we know guilt or innocence without due process ?
Are all of those held at Gitmo of the “captured in battle with weapons on them” types ?
I gotta run out for a few hours, check ya later.
May 21st, 2009 at 8:07 pm
James and Lefty,
I DO think that they should have due process. I just don’t think that it should be in civilian courts. Defended by an attorney paid for by me.
There is a process, albeit abused by Dubya, for trying these detainees.
By the way, you DO know that Obama is continuing ALL of Dubya’s policies regarding this, right?
OldLefty Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 8:50 pm
Obama IS using the military tribunals in some cases BUT with rights:
Restrictions on hearsay evidence that can be used in court against the detainees.
_A ban on all evidence obtained through cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment. This would include statements given from detainees who were subjected to waterboarding, a form of simulated drowning.
_Giving detainees greater leeway in choosing their own military counsel.
_Protecting detainees who refuse to testify from legal sanctions or other court prejudices.
May 21st, 2009 at 8:47 pm
Obama IS using the military tribunals in some cases BUT with rights
He is continuing to hold detainees at military prisons off of US borders.
He has successfully sued to keep detainees detained without charges.
He has said no waterboarding, but we don’t know what else he HAS allowed.
Point is, he is more LIKE Dubya than different.
OldLefty Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 9:01 pm
For right now…. it takes a lot of time. It took seven years to creat this mess. he’s not going to just release them.
When he invades another country, and does the same thing, THEN he will be more like Dubya, I think…..
But see, that’s why I should be queen!
average james Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 2:01 pm
Queen Lefty—–kinda has a ring to it.
May 21st, 2009 at 8:55 pm
For right now…. it takes a lot of time.
Bull chit.
He doesn’t need to detain these guys forever! He doesn’t have to render these guys out of the country!
The point is; he isn’t who he appeared to be.
OldLefty Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 9:58 pm
I’ll give him a few years and see what happens.
Most liberals were of the mind that if he makes you 100% happy, you are not thinking critically, and you must demand answers.
To me, he appeared to be more center, than left…but again, I’m willing to see, while putting pressure on.
Eric Goeke Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 12:10 am
“The point is; he isn’t who he appeared to be.”
That’s true in so far as politics is politics. Keep in mind if McCain won that Republicans would have their beefs of different natures than the liberal beefs on Obama. This is the reality of politics and electing officials to run a nation.
Nobody is a walking god. Not Reagan. Not Obama.
I support him as a president and as a man. I reserve my right to disagree with some of his policies.
average james Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 12:18 am
Yep,
Me too.
May 21st, 2009 at 9:10 pm
[...] Obama and Dick Cheney gave competing speeches on terrorism Thursday. It’s fun to listen to them side-by-side. We’ve whittled the [...]
May 21st, 2009 at 10:31 pm
Daddio – “Our country has done an exceptional job in thwarting more attacks since 9/11. But there will be no credit given to Bush or America for that success. No credit given from liberals.”
What about prior to 9/11? Didn’t Bush drop the ball when 9/11 happened no matter how you look at it? Wasn’t it his responsibility to prevent that attack? At all costs?
I give credit where credit is due. The Bush White House did indeed protect us from terrorism for seven years. But they were in office for eight.
And the issue comes back to if torture helps or harms in the fight against terrorism and extremism.
You’re wrong to try to stray away from the Clinton comparison. Conservatives never gave Clinton any credit for anything national security and you know it.
Republicans and conservatives only talk about national security when it benefits their party.
You could find some liberal called Eric Lightborn giving credit to Bush for things he did right in one of my blogs on “Observing America” if your really needing proof that such a thing as liberal bipartisanship.
Robert Blair Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 12:41 am
We also have been free of elephant stampedes, cockroach infestations of Nebraska, and Iowa didn’t blow up. Yep, nice job….they had about the same probability as Cheney’s mystical attacks.
Kregg Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 10:16 am
Robert said: We also have been free of elephant stampedes, cockroach infestations of Nebraska, and Iowa didn’t blow up. Yep, nice job….they had about the same probability as Cheney’s mystical attacks.
K: You know, for a crowd that willingly accepts the odds on man randomly and accidentally evolving from rocks you certainly get overly cautious about the much shorter odds that there were other terrorist attacks foiled – especially since it has been reported that a plot on LA was thwarted.
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 3:33 am
I’m just wondering…can’t we all agree that the terrorists and Osama Bin Laden are responsible for 9/11 and no one else.
Even if credible threats were made there is only so much you can do to stop it. As far as I remember, people were going through airport security before and on 9/11. weapons were still illegal and not allowed on airplanes.
Remember, these guys purposefully entered the country under false pretenses, feigned to be legitimate citizens , snuck illegal weapons onto the planes, attacked and hijacked the plane with boxcutters, then ran them into buildings.
Last time I checked no one has ESP or the ability to read peoples minds. You can do detective work, but there are 300 million people in the United States, not counting the billions of people in the world any of which could have a beef with the US, and given the right equipment and will could wreak havoc.
Timothy McVeigh brought down a building with legal fertilizer and diesel that he probably pumped from the local Pik-a-Pop.
Blaming law enforcement or administrations removed from the people by 18 layers of beaurocracy is insane.
Assign blame to the evil-doers, not the ones that unsuccessfully tried to stop it.
May 22nd, 2009 at 12:07 am
Cheney deserves his day in court. If he is half as guilty as I think he is he needs to go to trail.
Cheney – “Recklessness over righteousness.”
Describes the Bush-era exactly.
“There can be no middle ground in the war on terror.”
Then why not just drop nukes and start a genocide, Mr. Cheney? Without a middle ground we might as well just ‘kill em all’ and ‘bring em on.’
May 22nd, 2009 at 12:15 am
I support him as a president and as a man. I reserve my right to disagree with some of his policies.
Somehow I don’t think that you will speak out on his failings and short comings.
May 22nd, 2009 at 12:34 am
Describes the Bush-era exactly.
Give more than one example.
Eric Goeke Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 1:52 am
Sure will. The whole Iraq War itself.
The inspectors were not allowed to do their job.
The reckless and self-righteous actions of the Bush White House placed our nation in situation in which we were hunting for WMDs that were not there and degraded our national credibility and security by engaging in the entire conflict.
Most of the Bush presidency was about war and war policy and the majority of it is, in my view, a practice in American hubris.
The idea that we can torture the answers out of our enemies because we deserve the right to is not in keeping with American Law nor culture. Bush did war crimes. No other way around it.
pierre Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 4:09 pm
The war on terror would have been a “mission
accomplished” and over within 2-years, if and
only if Cheney had wipe out all Taliban and
Al Qaeda in Afgahanistan.
No, he wanted more war to ensure his re-election.
So Iraq was an illegal and political war.
So many little girls have died!!!
Eric Goeke Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 4:24 pm
You confuse me, Pierre.
How do you purpose that Cheney was to ‘wipe out’ the Taliban? Is there something your not telling us?
It sounds to me like you are advocating the use of WMDs in warfare or something else even worse than what we already have done.
Cheney and his policies wouldn’t have done anything but caused another 9/11 if they let him loose on managing the wars. I seem to recall a complete and utter failure in BOTH wars until Gen. Petraeus came in. And he is one military man that I am a real big fan of. Political solutions over these ‘kill all the rag-heads’ solutions we hear from Bush People.
There is no ‘war on terror,’ there is a struggle against Arabic Extremism and frankly it is drummed up to keep us forever involved in the Mideast.
Why do I even bother? As soon as I talk the straight dope everyone on both sides starts going:
“Where’s your credibility? Who’s your editor?”
Lame. All I can comment on within the confines of the Fallacy of Experts is video-games, college and women.
Guess I should just ignore my freedom of speech and be a robot … guess I should listen to the fascists who want we to ‘just go away.’
Point is … we failed in Afghanistan because of Iraq. The Bush policy to invade Iraq cost us our only real chance to strike a solid blow against American-aimed Arabic Extremism. Now it’s all bad.
-
They hate us because we are over there, by the way. That’s always where this is going.
They hate that we created the Taliban. They hate that we continue to find new reasons to be on their soil and within their lands. Just get away from FOX News a little and you’ll finally hear an account from someone on the ground instead of all these ‘dog & pony show’ journalists giving you the propaganda of the day.
May 22nd, 2009 at 12:35 am
Sure will. The whole Iraq War itself.
Can’t even follow basic instructions.
MORE than one.
The inspectors were not allowed to do their job.
Right. That was Saddam. Wouldn’t let ‘em in….
Eric Goeke Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 4:32 pm
Yo, Pino. You can’t even follow the basic outlines of the Constitution and insult our national standards of ethics, morality and law by what you stand for.
I hope you realize this.
“Right. That was Saddam. Wouldn’t let ‘em in…”
Man o’ man! You watch so much FOX News and right wing radio that I question if you even know that you live in America and not in Conservative Nation.
Give me a break. You know that’s false or you don’t research any facts that Hannity spews down on you.
Why do you think we liberals call him a LIAR?
We don’t dress it up with calling him a partisan because he lies to your face like a shameless bastard.
The inspectors were let in and were doing their job and then Bush called them up and was like:
“Get outta there.”
And they went:
“Why?”
“We’re invading.”
“But we need more time to figure out where the WMDs are and were they went if they are not here.”
“Don’t care. We are going in. Get out of the country or get caught up in bombing runs.”
—
I guess following the news and tryin to semi-civil with people is just too much to ask of a conservative American. It’s too hard to be a man and admit when your wrong for most of you and thus we get these RUNNING LIES like you just repeated and then there is that BS STORY about YELLOWCAKE that morons still bring up after it has been debunked by every news agency in the world except hate-radio (if you could call that Lie Box any kind of news.)
May 22nd, 2009 at 2:06 am
“I give credit where credit is due. The Bush White House did indeed protect us from terrorism for seven years.”
Ahem, I beg to differ here.
I promise you I will make it rain over your farm every year for the next 7 years. I go off playing golf for 7 years. 7 years later, statistics say that it rained over your farm every year for the next 7 years. Does my claim that I CAUSED it to rain, and kept my promise make any sense?The claim that the Bush WHite house PROTECTED us from terrorism for 7 years makes as much sense. All that the statistic says is, there were no further terrorist attacks. I have zero evidence for a cause effect relationship between actions by the Bush administration and this Zero attacks statistic.
pierre Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 9:55 am
In football the team with the most touchdown usually wins.
Now let’s declare the winner based on the numbers
of attacks:
Bush/cheney lost 1 to 0.
Daddio Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 10:03 am
Huh????
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
May 23rd, 2009 at 3:09 am
Pierre,
who is the opponent? in your ficticious football game?
May 22nd, 2009 at 6:21 am
[...] Dueling Speeches [...]
May 22nd, 2009 at 6:54 am
“How appropriate is it for VP who just concluded his term to inject himself into the bloodstream as a new administration is taking hold? It’s certainly not customary.”–Alan Colmes.
You are absolutely right Alan. But what is the difference between Dick Cheney speaking out and Clinton and Carter speaking out about their predicessors? You can’t condemn one and not the others.
OldLefty Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 9:29 am
Clinton, Carter and Gore waited till they botched everything, and they were not on a “It wasn’t me..It wasn’t me..It wasn’t me..”, bamboozlepaloosa tour.
Daddio Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 9:35 am
You totally missed the point Lefty. No former President or VP, until Carter and Clinton, ever injected themselves into the administrations of their predecessors. It was always a courtesy displayed by former Presidents.
Carter has been doing it now for 28 years and Clinton has been doing it for 8 years. Gore started bashing Bush after the 2001 election. SORE LOSER I guess.
So don’t condemn Cheney for this. Unless you are ready to condemn Clinton, Carter, and Gore.
Oh, and maybe Cheney thinks Obama has “botched” this very important issue.
OldLefty Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 9:41 am
No former President or VP, until Carter and Clinton, ever injected themselves into the administrations of their predecessors.
………………….
I don’t know that that is true, but again they wait for results, Gore only started AFTER the war on Iraq.
As a matter of fact, people thought he was conspicuous in his absence,
Cheney did not…he’s just bloviating.
Daddio Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 9:46 am
Why can’t you see that Cheney has a ligitimate response to what Obama is doing to our war on terror? He is not “bloviating”. He has a ligitimate concern and more and more Americans are beginning to side with Dick Cheney on this issue.
You can respectfully dis-agree but don’t dismiss the fact that he is absolutely serious about his concerns.
Sarah Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 10:51 am
I find it fascinating that Cheney’s doing all the talking (and his daughter, which is even more pathetic– your main defender is a relative? C’mon!), while Bush is silent as a tomb.
OldLefty Reply:
May 22nd, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Daddio,
From the seventies, when Cheney undermined Nixon’s détente with his Committee on the Present Danger by claiming that the Soviets had a new secret weapon of mass destruction that the president didn’t know about, that the CIA didn’t know about, that nobody knew about but them, (he Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz) which was a nuclear submarine technology that was undetectable by current American technology.
Therefore, the US must redirect billions of dollars away from domestic programs and instead give the money to defense contractors .
I have never believed that Dick Cheney cared about the interests of the United States.
No one was more vociferous in their screaming about the danger of communism, and the domino theory, and how important the Viet Nam war was….yet HE had “other priorities”.
And before you bring up other presidents and VPs who didn’t serve….none have made a career of spreading fear like Cheney, while behaving so cowardly.
May 22nd, 2009 at 9:19 am