Roeder Defender: “Christian Scripture…Would Support this”
Dave Leach, who runs an anti-abortion news letter to which the suspected George Tiller killer contributed, defends his actions. Scott Roeder (right, in custody) was a subscriber and contributor to Leach’s “Prayer and Action News.”
Mr. Leach said he and Mr. Roeder had met once, and Mr. Roeder had described similar views to his own. Of Dr. Tiller’s death, Mr. Leach said, “To call this a crime is too simplistic,” adding, “There is Christian scripture that would support this.”
Roeder and Leach met when they visited the woman who sot Tiller in 1993.
…Leach, said he met Roeder in Topeka when he went there to visit Shelley Shannon, who was in prison for shooting Tiller in both arms in 1993.
Roeder also wrote on the anti-abortion website, Operation Rescue:
“Bleass everyone for attending and praying in May to bring justice to Tiller and the closing of his death camp. Sometime soon, would it be feasible to organize as many people as possible to attend Tillers church (inside, not just outside) to have much more of a presence and possibly ask questions of the Pastor, Deacons, Elders and members while there? Doesn’t seem like it would hurt anything but bring more attention to Tiller.”
Unlike its founder, Randall Terry, Operation Rescue has condemned Tiller’s killing.
Jesus Wept.
Kregg Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 1:08 pm
True…
EricG Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 3:02 pm
He is still crying. Crying for those who use his name to justify hatred, bigotry and violence. All these people are right wingers and conservatives. They are not fit to call themselves Christians, in my view.
flap Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 5:43 pm
“All these people are right wingers and conservatives.”
EricG, you’re out of your mind.
Kregg Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:06 am
The Eric said: He is still crying. Crying for those who use his name to justify hatred, bigotry and violence. All these people are right wingers and conservatives.
K: Surely, you can’t REALLY be this ignorant – can you?
JaredfromTexas Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:09 am
KREGG<
I’ve given up on little ERIC…he’s just worth the effort…
June 1st, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Taliban likeness with a different God and set of scripture references.
Mullah Randall Terry.
Mullah Dave Leach.
Both are on a jihad.
blissfulconservative Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 12:56 pm
And what type of Jihan is Tiller on?
average james Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Tiller was the infidel.
June 1st, 2009 at 12:53 pm
“Christianity” is a cancer rotting out the heart of America, and DHS better get busy cutting out the malignancies.
Kregg Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 1:30 pm
Rock: “Christianity” is a cancer rotting out the heart of America, and DHS better get busy cutting out the malignancies.
K: Just like “atheism” is eating out the heart of society.
K: Christianity can be practiced as badly as atheism. Now, the greater question is whether there’s any truth to the claim that Tiller’s killing was supported scripturally. I say that it does not.
craig7120 Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 1:51 pm
I really know better than to do this, but here it goes.
K: Just like “atheism” is eating out the heart of society.
above story tells how this Roeder guy ‘might’ have used scripture as a defense. Kregg you give atheists way more credit than I would, but please show me an example how an atheist is currently eating the heart out of society.
Wonder if Tiller was a church going atheist?
Kregg Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Craig said: I really know better than to do this, but here it goes.
K: ;-)
K prv: Just like “atheism” is eating out the heart of society.
C: above story tells how this Roeder guy ‘might’ have used scripture as a defense. Kregg you give atheists way more credit than I would, but please show me an example how an atheist is currently eating the heart out of society.
K: Not AN atheist but atheism as a cultural force is ‘eating out the heart of society’ by slowly dragging common societal beliefs and practices away from the morals of ‘good’ and ‘bad’ as brought forth in the bible and thousands of years of christian development. Not that all christians are ‘good’ and all atheists are ‘bad’ but blurring and ultimately eliminating the concepts of good and bad have led us to an acceptance that to kill unborn children for expediency is ‘good’.
C: Wonder if Tiller was a church going atheist?
K: I suspect he was a committed christian. I WOULD have liked to hear him reconcile abortion with Christ’s principles, though…
craig7120 Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Ok but after a thousand years of christian development when can I expect it to get better? Another thousand or so?
Im not goin to blame xtians for this guy. But his beliefs are suspect in his actions wouldnt you say?
craig7120 Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Not that all christians are ‘good’ and all atheists are ‘bad’ but blurring and ultimately eliminating the concepts of good and bad have led us to an acceptance that to kill unborn children for expediency is ‘good’
who is calling abortion good ? See now this is where a fight can break out.. insinuating that pro choice ppl. think abortion is good.
Kregg Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 3:13 pm
Craig said: Ok but after a thousand years of christian development when can I expect it to get better? Another thousand or so?
K: Look at the progress thats been made in 2000 years, Craig. We don’t condone slavery, we don’t throw people to lions, we don’t cook and eat people. We have built stable governments based on christian principles that have promoted progress and advancement. What level of progress do you require before you admit the good that has come about in the name of christianity?
C: Im not goin to blame xtians for this guy. But his beliefs are suspect in his actions wouldnt you say?
K: I completely agree. Thats why I’d like to hear his justification.
craig7120 Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 4:10 pm
Kregg,
Religion does some very good things I will admit that freely as an atheist. But all those good things could be accomplished by other means unconnected to the idea ‘our god is the only god, we are right because it says so in our book’. This idea which originated in the middle east, fundamental to so many other organised religions just creates more divisions in the world, another wall to break down. It’s also a vehicle to allow some very bad people a lot of undeserved power and have control over a great many people. No need to give ya a laundry list.
While I dont know what this man will say I have a pretty good guess. His god made him do it is the short answer I expect to hear.
Kregg Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 4:25 pm
Craig said: Religion does some very good things I will admit that freely as an atheist. But all those good things could be accomplished by other means unconnected to the idea ‘our god is the only god, we are right because it says so in our book’.
K: I agree. However, not all christians say this. To tar and feather the whole of christianity by the actions of SOME of it’s adherents isn’t really accurate or fair. Each of us SHOULD have reasons for our beliefs – whether they be theistically base or A-theistically based. And, each has a right to contribute his beliefs to the common public pool of ideas, laws, and societal norms.
C: This idea which originated in the middle east, fundamental to so many other organised religions just creates more divisions in the world, another wall to break down. It’s also a vehicle to allow some very bad people a lot of undeserved power and have control over a great many people. No need to give ya a laundry list.
K: I think this gun shoots both ways. There are a lot of atheistic dictators out there that are promoting ‘divisions in the world’ and are just as much a ‘wall to break down’ as is Theism. And, I will readily agree – there are a lot of people hiding behind both philosophies that can and do give those philosophies a bad name.
C: While I dont know what this man will say I have a pretty good guess. His god made him do it is the short answer I expect to hear.
K: Naw, he’s smarter than that. He would probably claim that it is legal so, therefore it is ethical, and that doing so saves a lot of heartache for the mother-to-was. I doubt he would even try to justify it against the CONCEPTs of the bible.
Kregg Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 2:02 am
Craig said: who is calling abortion good ? See now this is where a fight can break out.. insinuating that pro choice ppl. think abortion is good.
K: Would you rather I said that pro-abortionists find abortion expedient? Would that make you feel better? ;-)
craig7120 Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:01 am
Call it anything you like. I was merely pointing out that words can disrupt a civil discourse.
blissfulconservative Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 1:38 pm
You are anti-Christian Rocky. pure and simple. You hate Christians. I would say the cancer rotting out the heart of America is people like you who aren’t tolerant of other’s beliefs.
EricG Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 3:07 pm
“I would say the cancer rotting out the heart of America is people like you who aren’t tolerant of other’s beliefs.”
Okay, I agree. But you’d got that gun pointed in a funny direction. Your party tells us that gays are second-class citizens not worthy of equal treatment under the law, that foreign nations are ours to invade at our leisure and whim, that liberals are trying to destroy the schools, that secularism is coming to tear the church apart and finally that partisanship bickering is a valid political stance.
I am with you in so far as we all need to find the strength to tolerate the views we don’t hold ourselves that we find threatening but I honestly can’t think even ONE conservative or Republican who is fit to stand up and say such a thing without the fires of hypocrisy abounding all around them.
bobfrommadison Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 4:07 pm
Eric-Your party tells us that gays are second-class citizens not worthy of equal treatment under the law…
What gay person is denied equal treatment? As far as I know, gay people CAN marry…they refuse to marry those they can under the law. Therefore, no 2nd class citizenship.
..that foreign nations are ours to invade at our leisure and whim…
No, only those those that are in violation of ceasefires to which they have agreed…and those that harbor terrorists. Try again.
June 1st, 2009 at 1:26 pm
These terrorist acts are being promoted by Foxy news:
el reilly, beck, sean, rush ect.
EricG Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Don’t forget our resident conservatives of Liberaland coming to defend a murderer.
Never ceases to amaze me how conservatives change their positions as the wind changes.
Kregg Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 3:14 pm
The Eric said: Don’t forget our resident conservatives of Liberaland coming to defend a murderer.
K: Who is defending a murderer?
flap Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 3:33 pm
Who is defending a murderer, EricG? Which conservative or conservatives?
Kregg Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 2:10 am
Hmm, The Eric seems strangely silent when pressed for facts, doesn’t he?
June 1st, 2009 at 3:04 pm
Had Tiller been where he belonged, he would be alive today…IN PRISON!
Kregg Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 3:36 pm
Bob said: Had Tiller been where he belonged, he would be alive today…IN PRISON!
K: LOL! Good luck selling that to the true believers on this board…
average james Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 5:35 pm
Actually Bob,
That’s a pretty good one. Hehehe
I suspected a sense of humor in there somewhere.
June 1st, 2009 at 3:33 pm
‘Christian progress’ is an oxymoron.
A thousand years of stagnetion.
Christians have supported slavery(biblical), Supported polygamy (biblical),
subjegation of women (biblical), genocide against Native Americans (biblical), resisted birth controls, medical advancements, voting rights for women and blacks, and the list goes on.
Kregg Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 4:30 pm
Boogie said: ‘Christian progress’ is an oxymoron.
K: While some on this board are just plain ol’ morons…
flap Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 5:48 pm
Boogie, let’s say you’re right about your supposed claims of the Bible.
Why is slavery wrong? Why is polygamy wrong? Why is subjugation of women wrong? Why is genocide wrong? Can you give me a moral basis for why those things are wrong other than “they just are” or “you should know they’re wrong” or “the law says they are”? What moral source makes those things wrong?
June 1st, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Tiller has done nothing illegal.
He dies as a martyr to freedom; killed by a good ‘christian’ warrior in the army of god.
Kregg Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 4:30 pm
Boogie said: Tiller has done nothing illegal.
K: Well said.
flap Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 5:46 pm
Slavery was legal. Abortion is legal. Has absolutely nothing to do with the more important issue: is it moral or SHOULD it be legal.
The answer to the question, at least for late-term abortion (with very, very few exceptions) is obvious: it should NOT be legal. Killing should not be a matter of “choice.”
Kregg Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:58 am
Flap said: The answer to the question, at least for late-term abortion (with very, very few exceptions) is obvious: it should NOT be legal. Killing should not be a matter of “choice.”
K: Well said, too. And more insightful…
Kregg Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 2:26 am
That which is legal is permissible but not necessarily right.
average james Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:48 am
Kregg—That which is legal is permissible, but not always right.
Amen brother.
June 1st, 2009 at 4:25 pm
[...] Anti-abortion activist Dave Leach defends his shocking claim that scriptures support the murder of abortion providers like Dr. George [...]
June 1st, 2009 at 8:08 pm
I feel like a voice in the wilderness but:
Every mainstream pro-life organization has unequivocally condemned the killing.
I repeat: Every mainstream pro-life organization has unequivocally condemned the killing.
Somehow this never reached the news.
Kregg Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:14 am
Don said: Somehow this never reached the news.
K: Thats ok, it won’t reach the minds of the true believers on this board either…
June 1st, 2009 at 8:11 pm
“Why is slavery wrong? Why is polygamy wrong? Why is subjugation of women wrong? Why is genocide wrong? Can you give me a moral basis for why those things are wrong other than “they just are” or “you should know they’re wrong” or “the law says they are”? What moral source makes those things wrong?”
A little thing called common sense.
I would not like to be on the other side of those ‘christian’ positions.
er go: they are wrong.
Treating another person as less than you is inherently wrong.
Kregg Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:56 am
Boogie said: Treating another person as less than you is inherently wrong.
K: Treating another person as equal to you is inherently biblical.
craig7120 Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:37 am
K: Treating another person as equal to you is inherently biblical
Unless of course you were born female back in biblical days, right?
Kregg Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:47 am
K prv: Treating another person as equal to you is inherently biblical
Craig said: Unless of course you were born female back in biblical days, right?
K: Biblical reporting of societal conditions at the time and biblical instruction on how to treat women are two different things. The bible tells men to cherish their wives, to treat them as they would themselves, that the two are ‘one’ and cannot be separated. Christ likens the church to his cherished ‘bride’. The biblical counsel on the golden rule does not discriminate against women. Women held high places in the NT church. I could go on… ;-)
craig7120 Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:56 am
so your saying that the bible wasnt practiced back in the day? Interesting.
Oh Im sure you could and would if prompted, I shall not request bible quotes for or against women. They’re boring and nonsense imo.
Kregg Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Craig said: so your saying that the bible wasnt practiced back in the day? Interesting.
K: No, I’m not. However, if life had been pristine in biblical days I’m sure the counsel given would have been much different. I admit a little confusion as to how you could draw such a conclusion.
C: Oh Im sure you could and would if prompted, I shall not request bible quotes for or against women. They’re boring and nonsense imo.
K: Interesting that they are ‘nonsense’ in that the social reforms that have made women ‘equal’ have been brought about by people who trust the bible’s authority. I could be wrong and shown that an atheist or two have improved civil rights but I’m guessing that most reformers believed in a higher power and authority than man for what is ‘right’ and what is ‘wrong’.
craig7120 Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 10:44 pm
pristine? why not it was the hand of your god right? he couldnt dare make any thing imperfect right?
I could be wrong and shown that an atheist or two have improved civil rights but I’m guessing that most reformers believed in a higher power and authority than man for what is ‘right’ and what is ‘wrong’
so there ya have it, men of god is responsible for this construct?
again im just saying religion is no cure. Is it a cancer? yes.
Kregg Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:07 pm
Craig said: pristine? why not it was the hand of your god right? he couldnt dare make any thing imperfect right?
K: Craig, its a big topic for a blog but man has been sinful for a long time and, therefore, separated from God. The bible chronicles God’s efforts to redeem man. Its not that God created something imperfect but that man, through his freewill, has messed that perfection up.
K prv: I could be wrong and shown that an atheist or two have improved civil rights but I’m guessing that most reformers believed in a higher power and authority than man for what is ‘right’ and what is ‘wrong’
C: so there ya have it, men of god is responsible for this construct?
K: I said men of God have advanced civilization for centuries, believing in something more than ‘common’ sense for a sense of right and wrong.
C: again im just saying religion is no cure. Is it a cancer? yes.
K: Everyone has an opinion and I”ll not try to dissuade you from yours… Interesting, though, that you’ve not addressed what I actually said.
trees are people too Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:07 pm
Craig, I had the opportunity last night to have dinner with two amazing men who are doing extraordinary things within their community.
They were both former gang members, and listening to who they were before becoming “born again” Christians was amazing, and this isn’t the first time I’ve met men of this caliber.
We prayed together afterward, arms around each other, crying…..
We were crying because we have experienced the power of the living God, and we were praising Him.
For those who have been forgiven as much as we have it truly is amazing…how great is His grace.
We were crying because we experienced true brotherhood, we were crying because we were truly brothers worshiping the risen Lord.
We were crying tears of appreciation for the God who forgives the crimes that men will not.
We were crying because for a little while there all was right with the world……..
God is not the source of the cancer that eats away at society……..evil is………..
God is the cure.
craig7120 Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:19 pm
Kregg n TAP~ aka trees (I really like the nic TAP)
Wad up brothers from a different mother… I feel good about you both responding. I rarely get the opportunity to apologize to the both of you for something Ive said in past posts. Not including above posts (lol). Really Ive been harsh in the past to the both of ya and send out no ill intentions.
Respectfully,
Craig
trees are people too Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:25 pm
No problem Craig, I’m interested in hearing what someone really thinks.
I prefer trees, however.
Anyway, speak what’s on your mind, always.
Sincerely, your friend trees
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 9:06 am
seems like common sense to me if I can get someone to tend my yard, do my dishes and clean my house for free….slavery must be a good thing because it’s good for me to have a clean house….
Kregg Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:16 am
Works for me, Guido. I”m sure there are other common sense issues out there that christianity puts the lie to, also.
Um Cara Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:24 am
Or it is common sense that you don’t want your kids (or yourself) to be sold into slavery, so you shouldn’t support slavery because you would not like such an industry to exist where your kids (or yourself) might end up in it.
average james Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:30 am
Golden Rule—JC
Kregg Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:38 am
Um said: Or it is common sense that you don’t want your kids (or yourself) to be sold into slavery, so you shouldn’t support slavery because you would not like such an industry to exist where your kids (or yourself) might end up in it.
K: “Common” sense comes from “the society you grew up in…” and this is a perfect example of why there must be a higher ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ than ‘common sense’. Both views – keeping slaves AND rejecting slavery – have existed in ’societies [people] grew up in…’ but are obviously in conflict so where do you go for a single authoritative source for ‘uncommon sense’?
average james Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:45 am
Golden Rule—-Confuscious
Kregg Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:56 am
James said: Golden Rule—-Confuscious
K: KJV Luke 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
K: NIV Luke 6:31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
Um Cara Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 6:06 pm
Confucius said it first
June 1st, 2009 at 8:23 pm
“Every mainstream pro-life organization has unequivocally condemned the killing. Somehow this never reached the news.”
That’s because it’s a blatant lie.
The prolifers are radical extremists who advocate murder and terrorism and they should be hunted down with the same ferocity used against bin Laden, Al-Qaeda and the Taliban. Their churches should be condemned as radical organizations supporting terrorism. Anyone contributing money to those churches should be charged with providing material support to a terrorist organization.
June 1st, 2009 at 8:28 pm
The prolifers are radical extremists who advocate murder and terrorism and they should be hunted down with the same ferocity used against bin Laden, Al-Qaeda and the Taliban.
YOU are a terrorist. Which KOS reader was it that shot down those soldiers?
Rocky the Liberal Rottweiler Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 9:09 pm
Go back to your madrassa and tell Karl Rove and Bill O’Reilly to get themselves some good lawyers.
June 1st, 2009 at 8:40 pm
All these people are right wingers and conservatives.
I think that you should grow up. Live some life. And in about 20 years, come back and we’ll talk.
June 1st, 2009 at 8:44 pm
Go back to your madrassa
cnn.com
Sa-weet.
Where oh WHERE is the outrage!!!! A life was taken. This is MURDER!!! Certainly KOS and Huff and MoveOn MUST be held accountable! There is NO justice in this world!!!
Ooohhhh God………!!!!
Pah-lease
June 1st, 2009 at 9:26 pm
Frank Schaeffer, once knee deep in the radical right, points out that the wacky right talk out of both sides of their mouths.
They encourage aggressive protests and resistance in order to get their way in private.
In public, they deny any involvement or encouragement of those very tactics.
average james Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:43 am
Very interesting Boogieman,
Francis Schaeffer is big time in Christian circles.
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:19 am
For once, I am not going to keep my mouth shut on this one. Tiller was a murderer plain and simple. And NO REAL Christian will advocate murder of any kind. Period. All these morons who call in saying “woohoo tiller the baby killer is gone!” deserve whatever they shall reap.
Murder is wrong …. How sick is this country when people have a debate on murder? The dead man is NOT an American Hero. He was a bastard to the highest degree. And his killer will get his day as well. Because those who live by the sword shall also die by it. And if you break the law you are responsible for answering to the powers that be, and THAT is in the bible. So before you left-wing nut junkies start smearing all Christians, smear yourselves first. Nothing you can say will make you look any better than the crap you resemble now.
average james Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:41 am
Aerylon,
I like much of what you had to say right there.
Murder is wrong.
Tiller was no hero.
No real Christian would advocate murder of any kind.
If you break the law you are responsible for answering to the authorities.
Before smearing all Christians, smear yourself first.(the old plank in my own eye, which I do in fact have, admittedly)
But, How sick are we to have a debate on murder?—–How sick are we to have a debate on torture ?
What have we become ?????
June 2nd, 2009 at 2:52 am
Francis Schaeffer died in 1984.
Frank is his son, and has apologized for some of the things his father advocated.
Confucius said the ‘golden rule’ a thousand years before the bible writers put those words in Jesus’ mouth.
June 2nd, 2009 at 4:29 pm
Make that 500 years before Jesus was supposed to have said it.
June 2nd, 2009 at 4:31 pm