George Tiller’s clinic will close.
“The family of Dr. George Tiller announces that effective immediately, Women’s Health Care Services, Inc., will be permanently closed,” according to a statement issued on Tuesday morning by the family’s lawyers. “Notice is being given today to all concerned that the Tiller family is ceasing operation of the clinic and any involvement by family members in any other similar clinic.”
Have a good visit bro.
Take it easy.
Hi AJ,
No I haven’t read that one, I’ll have to check into it. Thanks for the suggestion.
I hope you are doing well James, and thank you for the compliment.
I’ve gotta run, my wife’s parents are visiting for the next couple of weeks so I’ll be busy but I’ll try to stop in and look around Liberaland when I can.
C-ya AJ, as always, your brother, trees
Good stuff Trees,
Have you ever read “The problem of pain” by C.S. Lewis ??
I recommend it. Lewis was insightful in the extreme.
Yea, people are always trying to either blame God for the bad stuff, or give him credit for the good stuff.
Kooky – if He’s out there, he has very much proven to be a hands off kind of Dude.
Very insightful Trees.
I think many people think that God is pulling the strings on all that is and others do not. Those who believe in the ‘interventionist God’ are always the ones facing the question your present.
I don’t blame Satan. I blame humanity. We did it to ourselves.
But that’s just my personal perspective.
That evil is human-born and not some mystical force of demons and fallen angels.
Only registered user allowed |
Come on Alan. Terrorist? The person who murdered Tiller is that, a murderer. If you call him a terrorist then you must call anyone who murders a terrorist. Although murder is a form of terrorism, I don’t think we need to start re-lableing crimes.
Could it be that maybe his family didn’t totally agree with Tiller’s work? Ever think of that possibility? Maybe they didn’t want to carry on his legacy.
deeznuts Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Murder with a socio-political agenda is terrorism.
Tiller’s murderer, and anyone who enabled him, is a terrorist. Period.
steve Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
I am in agreement that this home grown terrorism. When you have enableing comments from the right wing media and approval comments from extreme anti-abortion foes is a vocal form of terrorism.
Why ? Just look at remarks that where made during the civil rights movement by anti-civil rights groups. From southern law makers to the extreme voice and actions of the klan.
Sit back and listen what you heard from the media and anti-abortion foes and compare it with the anti-civil rights movement and you hesr the same tones. Tones of reasoning and approval.
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 2:17 am
I think it’s fair to call Roeder a terrorists and maybe the fairly small group of like minded violent ones that conspired and enabled, however I have a feeling that most of you are casting that net way too broad.
Candy83 Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:55 pm
…Agreed.
As for the family: My guess is that they don’t want to be involved with this anymore. It doesn’t say so much whether they were/are supportive of the late Dr. Triller. It basically says, We’re done with the facility.
Epiphany Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
“Could it be that maybe his family didn’t totally agree with Tiller’s work? Ever think of that possibility? Maybe they didn’t want to carry on his legacy.”
Ever think of the possibility Daddio that Dr. Tiller’s entire family has been threatened as well? Well forget the “possibility” premise because it happens to be a fact. And they’re not the only ones involved with with women’s services/abortion who are going through this. Yes they are being terrorised.
June 9th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
No, Alan the terrorists have not won. By this heinous act, more mainstream Americans will side with the continuing legality of reproductive rights and freedom.
Rest in peace Dr. Tiller. The 10 year old incest victim is grateful to you.
Daddio Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
By a 51-44 margin, mainstream America now disapprove of abortion. Latest Gallop poll taken about ten days ago.
deeznuts Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
Unsurprising and irrelevant. Nearly all people who self-identify as “pro choice” ALSO disapprove of abortion.
No one is “pro abortion.”
No one.
flap Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Rest in peace, Tiller. I hope God forgives you for all the unborn children you slaughtered while making big $$$$.
Only extremists in the mold of people like Roeder and Tiller will continue to side with late-term abortion.
Deeznuts, why is no one pro-abortion? It’s a “medical procedure,” right? I mean, I don’t care if a tonsillectomy is performed, so why do you back away from abortion? Is it because it’s morally repugnant, perhaps?
deeznuts Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Nice try, flap, but I’m not biting. The only repugnant thing I see here is your lame attempt at moral superiority without knowing all the facts.
If you think Tiller was just aborting babies willy-nilly for poops n’ giggles, then you know nothing about him.
I suggest you google a few testimonials from people he helped. Victims of incest, victims of rape, women with conjoined twins (one of which was dead in the womb). The list goes on. You don’t know a damn thing about what went on at Tiller’s clinic.
The man is a saint as far as I’m concerned.
TDro319 Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
Flap:
Spare us your feigned sympathy! Anybody who says what you said about Dr. Tiller above is either mentally sick or out to get attention. You’re a good one to pin abortions on doctors.
Again I ask you, do you know for a fact that Dr. Tiller was standing outside his clinic holding a gun to the heads of expectant mothers, forcing them to have abortions??
Furthermore, I’d like to correct your statement:
“I hope God forgives Bush and Cheney for all the post-born children they had slaughtered while making big $$$$.”
flap Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
“I hope God forgives Barack Obama for all the post-born children he has slaughtered while President.”
It goes both ways, TDro. Why is Barack Obama killing children in war? Why aren’t you bothered with him?
“The man is a saint as far as I’m concerned.”
Then you really know nothing about basic biology and what a late-term abortion actually entails, as goes for TDro and the rest of you who condone this type of brutality.
flap Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
And by the way TDro, I could say that people like you are “mentally sick” for believing that Tiller was some sort of saint. Do you know what a late term abortion actually entails?
TDro319 Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
I don’t care what a late term abortion actually entails. Have you any idea what happens to post-born people in a war???? Of course you don’t. Because once the fetus is born, you don’t care if they die a brutal death.
And Obama is just finishing what Bush started.
flap Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:25 pm
You don’t care? That’s not a very compassionate stance to take. Unlike you, I do care and do know what happens to post-born people in a war. That’s why war should only be used in defense. Let’s say I agree with you that the Iraq War was bad. Was WWII justified? Is any war ever justified for protection? Outline it for me.
“Obama is a killer! No blood for oil!” See, I can sound as extreme as all the Bush-haters.
TDro319 Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:58 pm
No, I don’t care. What Dr. Tiller was doing was not illegal.
And don’t you dare accuse me of lacking compassion. You’re the one who said abortion is much worse than war. I’ve been anti-war for years. You’re only interested in infringing on women’s rights.
You know, Flap, you’d make a great counselor for grieving families who’ve lost children in these disgusting wars. I can see it all now. You’d go up to a grieving mother and say, “Cheer up. It could have been worse. He could’ve been a fetus”.
No war is ever justified, in my opinion.
Do you have proof that Obama is responsible for starting these two unnecessary wars?
“No blood for oil”??? You’re a little late. Bush already sacrificed hundreds of thousands of lives to get his precious oil. Obama is simply cleaning up the mess Bush and Cheney left him , albeit not fast enough for me.
flap Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:00 pm
No war is EVER justified? You’re a pacifistic extremist, then. I saw an episode of the A-Team where Hannibal and the crew were fighting off bad guys with fisticuffs, etc., and the leader of the pacifist religious group they were saving wanted them to leave because he abhorred the violence (even to save them). Hannibal said, “Do you know what would happen to people like you without people like me?” You live in a country that was FOUNDED upon war. We gained our independence through war. I don’t like war, and I’m not saying the Iraq War is justified. But some war is necessary.
I believe some abortions are justified, so no standard snappy comeback for ya!
Women’s rights does not include killing, TDro. Maybe you think yo mama had the right to kill you at will, but I she did not.
Joel Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:17 pm
Was that the episode where they had to escape from a room full of tools?
flap Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 12:22 am
Actually, Joel, that might have been one of the few ones where they didn’t have to escape from a room full of tools.
Most A-Teams are formulaic but I always remembered that one because it did portray pacifists respectably but it also showed that violence sometimes might be necessary.
TDro319 Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
You are correct about one thing, Flap. I AM a pacifist extremist.
You say, “Women’s rights does not include killing”. Nobody said anything about women killing. We are talking about a woman’s right to control her own body. By the way, this whole abortion thing started with the Catholic church. Great. We have a bunch of pedophiles telling women what’s immoral.
jasperjava Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Rights should not be determined by popular vote.
I’m sure that Gallup polls in the 50’s and 60’s showed that segregation was extremely popular with Southern whites, but that didn’t make it right.
Besides, you can “disapprove” of abortion and still be in favor of women’s reproductive rights. Take me, for example: I don’t like abortion, I disapprove of it, if there is never again another abortion, I’ll be glad. And yet I don’t think it’s any of my business, or the government’s business, or anyone else’s business, to dictate what a woman does with her own uterus, under the advice and care of a physician.
One can be pro-life, anti-abortion, and STILL be pro-choice. These so-called “pro-lifers” who condone killing are the real hypocrites. They’re not “pro-life”, anyway. Most of them are fiercely in favor of war and the death penalty.
They’re just “pro-birth”. If they were really “pro-life”, they would favor social programs to help single mothers, they would gladly pay taxes of infant and childcare. But no: once you’re born, you’re on your own. We can send you off in a few years to be cannon fodder in wars for corporate profit, and if you don’t have a good lawyer, we can legally execute you if found guilty.
deeznuts Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
@jasperjava: They’re not “pro-life”, anyway….They’re just “pro-birth”. If they were really “pro-life”, they would favor social programs to help single mothers, they would gladly pay taxes of infant and childcare. But no: once you’re born, you’re on your own.
Egg-zackly.
Have you seen that video where the guy goes around asking abortion protesters: “if abortion is made illegal, what should be the sentence for women who get illegal abortions?” Very few of them had any answer at all, and ALL of them looked as though they’d never even considered that there’s a mother in the equation.
flap Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
Pro-life is a stupid term. I’m anti-abortion. Pro-choice is a stupid term as well, as libs are for only certain choices.
Both of them are loaded, political, meaningless pep rally words.
“If abortion is made illegal, what should be the sentence for women who get illegal abortions?”
What sort of laws were in place pre-1973? Why is Casey Anthony being jailed for killing her kid? Dang it, she was only a toddler! That was just a delayed abortion, right?
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 2:22 am
20 to life…for the Mom…30 to life for the doctor (the extra 10 years is for being a douche and taking money for the procedure)
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 2:22 am
of course those numbers would depend on the circumstance.
June 9th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
“By a 51-44 margin, mainstream America now disapprove of abortion.”
Another complete fabrication by the radical rightwing extremist still living in the 1950s.
What the Gallup results show, in fact, is that 22-23% of people approve or disapprove of abortion under any circumstances, while 53% approve and believe it should remain legal under certain circumstances.
June 9th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
53% approve and believe it should remain legal under certain circumstances.
I think that this is where most of the people I talk to, including me, fall.
No abortions out of convenience. Exceptions for victim of crime and health of mother.
June 9th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
If you think Tiller was just aborting babies willy-nilly for poops n’ giggles, then you know nothing about him.
Do you think that all of his abortions were done in the same spirit as the 10 year old incest victim? Or, or, do you think that some were done for reasons that even you would object too?
And if there are objectionable abortions, why don’t you have the courage to defend him for the justifiable and argue against him for the objectionable?
Or, are you too partisan?
TDro319 Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
And what does the great Pino know about Dr. Tiller? Do you know the exact circumstances for which each procedure was performed?
Since I don’t know exactly why each abortion was performed (as I’m sure you do), I can’t judge either way.
And by the way, why are you going after the doctor? Shouldn’t your outrage be directed toward the women seeking his services?
flap Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:15 pm
Much like some slaves were necessary in the South. You know, for economic reasons. Stop infringing on MY rights to own slaves! You have NO IDEA OF MY LIFE and the government has no place on my farm. My property is my property and none of your business. Pro-choice on slavery.
I think a lot of women need to be educated to what an abortion entails. It’s kinda unfair to criticize an uneducated women versus a doctor who knows damn well what he’s doing. A physician is supposed to preserve life. He should know better than to perform this brutality.
OldLefty Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:24 pm
Some women who have abortions are physicians.If you are that much against it, then don’t EVER have one.
I’ve never had one, but I don’t get to make that choice for others.
flap Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
Exactly, which is why I said slavery should be legal. If you are against slavery, don’t have slaves, but don’t infringe on MY right to have one. Same logic.
TDro319 Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:13 pm
“I think a lot of women need to be educated to what an abortion entails ”
Great. Now you’re calling women uneducated. Much like you, I suppose.
flap Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:20 pm
I’m a lot more educated than you, TDro. Which isn’t saying much, I suppose.
TDro319 Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:59 pm
“I’m a lot more educated than you, TDro:
I truly doubt that.
flap Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:00 pm
You have a doctorate?
TDro319 Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
“You have a doctorate?”
That proves nothing. Ann Coulter is a registered member of MENSA and she’s less educated on the issues.
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
June 11th, 2009 at 3:21 am
TDRO…what is your definition of educated…
MENSA membership has nothing to do with education.
You can think other peoples opinions are stupid or disagree with someone, it doesn’t invalidate the years of education that they worked for.
EricG Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
Your ‘objections’ to someone else’s abortion don’t matter. Until you figure out why you shouldn’t try to control the lives of others you will forever be locked in this cycle of chasing your tail.
deeznuts Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:01 pm
Boom.
Well said.
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 2:24 am
Your ‘objections’ to someone else’s murder don’t matter. Until you figure out why you shouldn’t try to control the lives of others you will forever be locked in this cycle of chasing your tail.
deeznuts Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:04 pm
@pino: Do you think that all of his abortions were done in the same spirit as the 10 year old incest victim?
I have no reason not to.
He is required by Kansas state law to have referrals with concurring opinions by at least two other physicians. Contrary to what the tee-vee tells you, one could not simply “walk into his office with $5000 and get an abortion.”
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 2:27 am
I think it was only one other doctor by law…and from some accounts it was a rigged game, he sent them to another doctor who would turn around and say yeah ok..then they returned with their $5000.
That is what he was put on trial for, in regards to some procedural malfeasance in who the other doctor was.
June 9th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
“No abortions out of convenience.”
And who the heck are you to decide what “convenience” is? Can you read minds? Are you going to polygraph every woman who wants an abortion?
Maybe you want to waterboard them too.
June 9th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
53% approve and believe it should remain legal under certain circumstances.
We’re talking about the poll here pup. 53% say it should be legal under certain circumstances. That would imply that the same 53% say it should be ILLEGAL in anything BUT those certain circumstances.
So, in the spirit of compromise, we are exploring what these certain circumstances are. No, if you are one of the 22% who hold the extreme view, then so be it. But don’t quote the 53% aspect.
Please please PLEASE try and keep up.
TDro319 Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
You know, Pino. Perhaps you’d be happier posting on Hannity’s site or Limbaugh’s site. I’m sure they’d love your kind of sarcasm.
EricG Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
That would also imply that you don’t want to talk about the issue and want to throw down spin like a radio jockey instead of being straight with us.
Just like Hannity does all day long. Lie, lie, lie. Then a little obfuscation of truth, then back to lying.
Can you keep up with the fact that only religious zealots and right wing liberty-haters have anything to do with the pro-lifers because they are crazed, and now violent.
flap Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
I believe you’re talking out of your @$$ again, EricG.
TDro319 Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
Look who’s accusing somebody else of talking out of their ass.
flap Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:21 pm
I don’t think I use hyperbole quite to the extent that EricG does.
pizzaman Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
EricG: Quit lying. You say “This always disturbs me. Someone claiming to know the mind of God.”
Do you deny that God thinks racism is evil? What about priests abusing altar boys? Or genocide? Or the killing of Dr. Tiller? Or war of aggression? How about sex with chickens? I say even YOU think that God detests all but the last of these things. Am I wrong?
Pizzaman
June 9th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
America is full of hypocrites wailing about the right to life. This country is full of raped, battered, abused, homeless and destitute women & children – poor people who don’t have a pot to pee in and are constantly being taken advantage of. Where are all of the protesters with their adoption papers? Oh I know, they’re standing there pontificating about the lazy welfare people with 8 kids who won’t go get a job working for minimum wage. But hey, they’re born – our work is done here!
flap Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:19 pm
I don’t understand the correlation between being against a heinous act and having to be actively FOR adoption. That’s like saying in order to be against slavery you have to find jobs for all the unemployed slaves. I don’t see how being against murder is hypocrisy, especially the butchery involved in late-term abortion. It has no relationship to any other social issue in my mind.
Well, sure, SGL you bring up important points that need to be addressed, and perhaps conservatives need to address them more in some circumstances, but the actual killing of late-term unborn children is pretty paramount.
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 2:32 am
SGL…do you have any numbers on how many kids put up for adoption at birth don’t get adopted?
From everything I’ve seen the kids that have the hardest time being adopted are older kids in state custody mostly from homes where the kids are taken from their parents. Or sibling groups that want/need to be placed together. And those with major health issues (which is sad, and those loving parents who willfully accept these children should be awarded medals)
nearly all newborns are placed with adoptive parents at or very near birth. Most adoption agencies have to limit how many active clients they have to match the amount of kids available or expected to be available.
June 9th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
I’m sure they’d love your kind of sarcasm.
You would just rather blather on about non-topics with no facts?
our work is done here!
I’ll bite. So, SGL, what do YOU do to help these poor destitute people?
Southern Girl Lib Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
I fully support their right to an abortion.
Daddio Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
I still cannot find any “right” to an abortion in the Constitution. I have searched and searched. It is simply not there.
Um Cara Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
The Supreme Court disagrees with you.
though I would certainly like to see this ‘right to privacy’ extended to other areas besides abortion.
Does anyone know of any other rights we have due to this ‘privacy’ thing?
Daddio Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
Because the Supreme Court disagrees with me doesn’t make abortion right in my eyes. It surly doesn’t make it right in the eyes of God. Who is the ultimate Supreme Court Judge and whose decision will ultimately be final.
OldLefty Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
Daddio said,
“I still cannot find any “right” to an abortion in the Constitution. I have searched and searched. It is simply not there.”
………………………………
It falls under the penumbra of rights according to the Ninth Amendment – Unenumerated Rights
“The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.”
**Annotations
Rights Retained by the People;
Aside from contending that a bill of rights was unnecessary, the Federalists responded to those opposing ratification of the Constitution because of the lack of a declaration of fundamental rights by arguing that inasmuch as it would be impossible to list all rights it would be dangerous to list some because there would be those who would seize on the absence of the omitted rights to assert that government was unrestrained as to those.
Um Cara Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
It surly doesn’t make it right in the eyes of God.
That is an entirely different issue than whether it is constitutional, which was your original statement.
Regardless of what you, I, or God thinks about abortion – the Supreme Court is who decides what is or is not constitutional.
EricG Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
This always disturbs me.
Someone claiming to know the mind of God.
Always begs the question … did you just repeat that from someone else or did you really sit down with God and have a long conversation about abortion and the modern world?
I don’t think you did.
And I can explain away all of the interpretations of the Bible that lead religious people to believe as they do. It’s all how you look at it and consider it.
Of course … actually thinking about the Bible and the words inside is not encouraged by many churches who want to control your mind and make sure you never learn the truth.
So belief is belief but if you are starting this ‘I’m on God’s side’ stuff then I’d like to tell you that I’m on God’s side. Me. Not you.
Me, me, me. God likes me and not you. Nah, nah, nah!
(See how stupid using God in politics is yet?)
deeznuts Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
@daddio: It surly [sic] doesn’t make it right in the eyes of God. Who is the ultimate Supreme Court Judge and whose decision will ultimately be final.
Hooo, boy. *rolls eyes*
flap Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
Slavery was “constitutional.” Moral. Slavery was, abortion IS. Of course it’s legal, and what Tiller was doing was unfortunately legal. That doesn’t remove from the enormity of the evil.
TDro319 Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
“That doesn’t remove from the enormity of the evil.”
And who decides what’s “evil”. You?
TDro319 Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
“I’m sure they’d love your kind of sarcasm.
You would just rather blather on about non-topics with no facts?”
What are you talking about? Your recent responses make no sense whatsoever. I think you may be losing it.
June 9th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
What amazes me if the fact that liberals always brand those of us who do not believe in abortion as condoning the murder those who perform abortions.
That is not only outrageous but utterly irresponsible by those on the left, or what I would call pro-abortionist.
I am pro-life from the time of conception till the natural death. I do not condone the murder of any life during that time span. To bad many on the left who condone the abortion trade cannot understand my point of view.
Southern Girl Lib Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
Then you were against the illegal invasion of Iraq as well?
Daddio Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
I don’t know of any “illegal invasion of Iraq”. Last time I checked Congress gave our Commander in Chief authority to wage that battle.
TDro319 Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Oh so because you think the invasion of Iraq wasn’t illegal that makes the mass slaughter okay in your eyes, Daddio?
EricG Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
It all sounds real nice, sounds like your all high and mighty.
But it’s not true.
“I am pro-life from the time of conception till the natural death. I do not condone the murder of any life during that time span. To bad many on the left who condone the abortion trade cannot understand my point of view.”
Like your stance is so ‘enlightened’ that we little liberals on the ground couldn’t know how you soar so high into the sky.
Nobody ANYWHERE is pro-abortion. That is BS lie made up by people on the right to demean and degrade my side on this issue.
I condone women making intelligent, informed decisions on their own body without the state stepping in and dictating her body to her.
The bottom line you cannot accept that you really need to absorb and pass along, is that nothing will change with a woman’s right to do as she will with her body. No matter what you do, no matter what laws you pass or religions you get written into law. No matter how just and holy you feel yourself to be … the fact remains you will not be controlling the womb of a woman, ever.
———
The Iraq War is an undeclared war. It is an illegal war that was approved for under Congress with the stipulation that war was going to a ‘last resort’ when Bush waited for no diplomacy and no reports.
Bush just listened to the Republican Mantra of kill all the people who disagree with me.
flap Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:25 pm
“I condone women making intelligent, informed decisions on their own body without the state stepping in and dictating her body to her.”
Okay, how about in a woman’s house. Let’s say a woman is raped and unfortunately she becomes pregnant. By the grace of God, she makes the “choice” not to destroy innocent life based on the horrible evil done to her and she carries the baby to term.
After said baby is born, she has second thoughts. If she makes an intelligent, informed decision to murder that BORN child who is a product of rape, using your logic I could make the case that you or the government has NO place in telling her what to do or punishing her for that. I mean, you don’t know her life or her circumstances, right? Would that be wrong of her to do that? Legally? Morally?
average james Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:49 pm
Flawed argument bro.
The child is no longer part of/inside her body.
Her body, her choice. That’s the pro-choice argument.
flap Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:11 pm
Why is choice limited to inside of her body? It’s not flawed. Her house, her choice. Her life, her choice.
average james Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:19 pm
That’s the gist of the whole pro-choice argument Flap.
While the child is inside of HER body (part of HER body), the choice resides soley with the woman. Because it is HER body, it is HER choice. Noone else makes HER do anything with HER own body.
Do you see why it seems to me like Republican / Libertarian logic ?
average james Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:22 pm
Outside of HER body, or post-born, is murder.
flap Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 12:26 am
Inside is not being PART OF, AJ. Huge difference. Distinct lifeforms. I don’t see why being biologically separate changes the argument. It’s HER house, HER car, HER life. What’s the difference, AJ? Why should the government prosecute her if she kills a kid in HER house? Shouldn’t the choice still remain solely with the woman?
My whole point is that being physically inside of another body should not legally remove from the humanity or human rights.
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 2:38 am
AJ…do you hold the same view post-viability? when the baby can live even without the mother.
average james Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 11:01 am
Flap and Guido,
I am merely pointing out the argument as I understand it.
The entire point of the pro-choice argument is about a woman being forced/obliged to carry around a fetus for 9 months, possibly against her will. It is her womb, it is her choice.
That’s the point from the pro-choice side.
Guido,
I am pro-life.
June 9th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
It surely doesn’t make it right in the eyes of God. ~ Willy.
Where was God during the holocaust? Where was God during a violent act of rape?
Daddio Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
Where is God in your life? I try and make God the center of my life.
Because bad things happen doesn’t mean God is not there. He weeps anytime one of his children are hurt or killed. God does not intervene into every human action. He has given us the freedom to act according to our own velition.
But God is everywhere. He is watching over us night and day. He waits for us to accept His free gift of eternal salvation. It is entirely up to us.
He is always there though Southern Girl. Sometimes you have to look for Him. Many times He is there, we just don’t have enough faith to see Him or hear His voice.
Daddio Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
I believe Southern Girl, that God uses us or puts us in situations like the two you posted to send us a message. To show us the inhumanity that we as humans are capable of. And many get His message and do things to change their life of the lives of others, so that things like that will never happen again.
God will use tragedies to bring people closer toghether and closer to Him. I firmly believe that.
Um Cara Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
I believe Southern Girl, that God uses us or puts us in situations like the two you posted to send us a message.
Wow, that’s pretty twisted, Willy.
You believe in an all powerful being, capable of doing anything he wants/needs to – that chooses to kill men, women, and children in the most painful and horrible ways – as an object lesson to the rest of us?
I gotta say, I’ve never come out w/ what my supernatural belief system is (or is not) but I definitely don’t believe in the sadistic, cruel, insane deity that you apparently believe in.
I thought you said you were a Christian? None of the Christians I grew up with ever had such a sick view of God either. You might want to check out some other churches, dude.
Daddio Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
Your response Cara will not get any explanation from me. Maybe you don’t read the Bible. Maybe you don’t believe in God. Maybe your political views won’t allow you to believe in a higher being. Or maybe you just choose not to actually read what I wrote. God has used tragidies through out for His purposes. He is God. He is the true and only God.
Um Cara Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
Your response Cara will not get any explanation from me. Maybe you don’t read the Bible.
Yea, I’ve read it. My understanding is that this kind of bad stuff is a result of His giving us free will, not some twisted sick game to teach us a lesson.
Maybe you don’t believe in God.
Maybe, maybe not.
Maybe your political views won’t allow you to believe in a higher being.
Interesting. I’ve never heard of someone whose political views made him or her not believe in God. How would that work, exactly?
Or maybe you just choose not to actually read what I wrote.
No, I read it. Pretty sick stuff, dude.
Um Cara Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
@ Trees and/or Kregg…
So, Trees – in your view, with regards to the Holocost, did God:
A) ‘put us in that situation’ to ’send us a message’
B) not intervene as a consequence of His granting us free will, and humans tend to put themselves in these types of situations all on their own (which no doubt bums Him out a great deal).
C) some other theory
I’m curious how widespread is this theory that God caused the Holocaust as a cosmic learning experience.
Kregg Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 12:58 am
Um said: @ Trees and/or Kregg…So, Trees – in your view, with regards to the Holocost, did God: A) ‘put us in that situation’ to ’send us a message’
K: Just as there is ‘good’ there is also ‘evil’ in this world separated from direct communion with God. In such a world we should not put down to God that which can be explained by the devil. I believe God allows us to experience ’sin’ or ‘evil’ authored by the devil but does not cause evil nor deliberately place us within it’s grasp.
U: B) not intervene as a consequence of His granting us free will, and humans tend to put themselves in these types of situations all on their own (which no doubt bums Him out a great deal).
K: I would largely agree with this statement. However, there are certainly evil situations – the holocaust being one of them – that no person in his right mind would exercise a freewill choice to participate in but the consequences of evil can certainly engulf the innocent and they will suffer through no fault – or freewill choice – of their own.
Um Cara Reply:
June 11th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
@Trees -
This is where the discussion started, with Willy blaming God for the Holocaust, and rape.
In Willy’s mind, the Christian god is some kind of insane psychopathic killer (ever seen the movie ‘Saw’ – Willy thinks God is like the bad guy in that movie, does horrible things to people to teach them a lesson).
My understanding of Christianity is that God was pretty brutal in his wild, carefree, bachelor days – but just like many fathers, he mellowed out after he had a Kid.
I was curious if this psychopathic God Willy seems to believe in was common Christian belief, at least the Christians I was raised with didn’t blame God for the holocaust or rape. As I said before, my understanding was that as a consequence of granting us free will, He doesn’t generally micro manage events on earth, and in all likelihood is pretty bummed out that we harm each other in such awful ways – and is most certainly does not ‘put us in situations’ like the Holocaust or rape merely to teach us something.
Um Cara Reply:
June 11th, 2009 at 7:03 pm
Yea, people are always trying to either blame God for the bad stuff, or give him credit for the good stuff.
Kooky – if He’s out there, he has very much proven to be a hands off kind of Dude.
average james Reply:
June 11th, 2009 at 7:06 pm
Good stuff Trees,
Have you ever read “The problem of pain” by C.S. Lewis ??
I recommend it. Lewis was insightful in the extreme.
trees are people too Reply:
June 11th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Hi AJ,
No I haven’t read that one, I’ll have to check into it. Thanks for the suggestion.
I hope you are doing well James, and thank you for the compliment.
I’ve gotta run, my wife’s parents are visiting for the next couple of weeks so I’ll be busy but I’ll try to stop in and look around Liberaland when I can.
C-ya AJ, as always, your brother, trees
average james Reply:
June 11th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
Have a good visit bro.
Take it easy.
EricG Reply:
June 11th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
Very insightful Trees.
I think many people think that God is pulling the strings on all that is and others do not. Those who believe in the ‘interventionist God’ are always the ones facing the question your present.
I don’t blame Satan. I blame humanity. We did it to ourselves.
But that’s just my personal perspective.
That evil is human-born and not some mystical force of demons and fallen angels.
June 9th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
The Supreme Court disagrees with you.
While I do support right to privacy, I feel the court did a disservice to the right of privacy of the child.
Um Cara Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Yea, I’m NOT engaging in abortion debate – I too am all for the right to privacy, but I have never seen it cited for anything other than abortion…
Are you aware of any other rights we have as a result of this ‘privacy’ right?
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 2:42 am
Sodomy laws were struck down as a privacy issue.
My two cents. Abortion as presently constituted crosses the line of privacy, not only for the child but the prospective father.
June 9th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
I fully support their right to an abortion.
Right. So you contribute nothing to nobody. Except, of course, deciding that the best way to combat poverty is to reduce the number of poor people born.
Excellent.
Southern Girl Lib Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
I don’t decide. It is the MOTHER’s right to choose.
June 9th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
Yea, the terrorists win again. Sad day.
Daddio Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
I think that is the shortest post I have seen from Eric. :)
June 9th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
Are you aware of any other rights we have as a result of this ‘privacy’ right?
Only as it pertains to the body? No.
Though haven’t there been legal ruling on the right of a person NOT to take medicine.
June 9th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
Wait, you can call him a terrorist, but spend your days thinking of new PC names for killers in Iraq like “freedom fighters”.
Why don’t you call him a “radical extremist”, or “religious fighter”
Here is a few to get you started:
pro-life challenged
late late late term abortionist
pro-fetus insurgan
OldLefty Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
hhhhhah,
He is like Al Qaeda, the killer of the army recruiter and all of the other far right wing terrorists.
The definition of terrorism is: the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.
hhhhhah Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
now i get what your are trying to do.
If we completly distort the meaning of “terrorist” then everybody will be call one. That way its more fair for the real killers.
hhhhhah Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
oh, and i would like to copyright the word “terrorist-american” just in case it comes up later on.
OldLefty Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
hhhhhah ,
The definition is quite clear.
Everybody who uses violence and fear of violence to get what they want IS a terrorist.
You just don’t like that most of them are religious zealots.
hhhhhah Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
religious zealots, way to add to the list.
So stop calling him a terrorist and call him a killer.
OldLefty Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 6:24 pm
Of course he’s a terrorist. He says there will be more violence….That’s what terrorists do, they try to terrorize you till you give in.
This is what the Jihadists do…..they kill people who they think violate their version of Islam.
June 9th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Alan, if you consider a murderer a terrorist, then you must call Tiller a terrorist, too, since he murdered thousands of innocent human beings. One could protest that the man who killed him was killing him in defense of others, but I’m sure you won’t. And for the rest of your followers, I don’t condone what happened to Tiller; he should have been convicted in court for murder.
OldLefty Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
What Tiller did was legal,(in a very conservative state)
Perhaps these patients should have allowed their moral betters to make these judgements for them, especially those who really wanted the babies:
“We always sent the really tragic cases to Tiller,” said Hill, who knew the doctor for 20 years. This included women who were newly diagnosed with cancer and who could not start chemotherapy unless they terminated their pregnancies; women whose babies would be born only to suffer from genetic illness and die; women – no girls – who were victims of rape or incest and who were so young that they didn’t know enough to know they were pregnant until they were many months along.
One man tells the story how they found out in the eighth month of pregnancy, that the twins his wife was carrying were conjoined, and were connected in such a way that “at best only one child would survive the surgery to separate them and the survivor would more than likely live a brief and painful life filled with surgery and organ transplants.” The man and his wife made their way to the Wichita clinic, and, the father wrote, “the nightmare of our decision and the aftermath was only made bearable by the warmth and compassion of Dr. Tiller and his remarkable staff.”
Another patient tells a similar story, writing: “My wife and I spent a week in Dr. Tiller’s care after we learned our 21-week fetus had a severe defect incompatible with life. The laws in our state prevented us from ending the pregnancy there, and Dr. Tiller was one of maybe three choices in the whole nation at that gestational age. He spent over six hours in one-on-one care with my wife when there was concern she had an infection. We’re talking about a physician here. Six hours…”
Not to mention the extremely painful and short lived Lethal osteogenesis imperfecta : lethal brittle bone syndrome
Then there was:
In 2002 I found out I was carrying triplets. My husband did not want me to have them. The day of my appointment I was scared and not sure this was the right decision. They took me back and did an ultrasound. I asked if they all had heartbeats and the nurse said yes. I asked if I would have the chance to talk to the doctor and right away she went and got Dr Tiller. He came in and looked at my babies on the screen. Then he looked at me and said “God gave you these babies, it’s not my job to take them away.” He asked if I agreed and I immediately said yes. He told the nurse to take me to the counter and have them give me my money. You know that day was a turning point for me. I ended up having a great pregnancy and three healthy baby girls. I can never thank Dr. Tiller enough for sending me away that day.
flap Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
2%, Oldlefty, are due to defects according to those stats. Even if you include “other” that’s 13%. That’s still 87% of late-term abortions being done for other reasons. That does not justify perinatal carnage based on a few difficult cases. Incompatibility with life…I’d hardly call that a “real” abortion since the baby will die anyway.
In 1987, the Alan Guttmacher Institute collected questionnaires from 1,900 women in the United States who came to clinics to have abortions. Of the 1,900 questioned, 420 had been pregnant for 16 or more weeks. These 420 women were asked to choose among a list of reasons they had not obtained the abortions earlier in their pregnancies. The results were as follows:[3]
71% Woman didn’t recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation
48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion
33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents
24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion
8% Woman waited for her relationship to change
8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion
6% Something changed after woman became pregnant
6% Woman didn’t know timing is important
5% Woman didn’t know she could get an abortion
2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy
11% Other
OldLefty Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:58 pm
“2%, Oldlefty, are due to defects according to those stats”
…………………….
The old Wikipedia entry from 1987, where they polled 22% of women out of their 1900 sample who had abortion after the 16th week, which is not late term according to the AMA.
From Morbidity and Mortality Weekly
In 2003, from data collected in those areas that sufficiently reported gestational age, it was found that 6.2% of abortions were conducted from 13 to 15 weeks, 4.2% from 16 to 20 weeks, and 1.4% at or after 21 weeks.
Perhaps you need to read some of the cases that Dr Tiller did.
Washington Post had an op ed on Sunday: My Choice
»
Rozalyn Farmer Love
I grew up believing abortion is wrong. Now I’m training to perform it.
flap Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:12 pm
“Perhaps you need to read some of the cases that Dr Tiller did.”
Perhaps you need to explain why, if this is so mainstream, we’re down to two clinics performing these horrible procedures. Ya think there might be a reason?
OldLefty Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 8:49 am
flap said,
“Perhaps you need to explain why, if this is so mainstream, we’re down to two clinics performing these horrible procedures. Ya think there might be a reason?”
……………………………
The point is that it is NOT mainstream. These cases are the rarest of the rare.
Not the average rape victim, but the 10 year old.
Not the tragic and difficult but rare EPIDERMOLYSIS BULLOSA, where the child can live a difficult life of painful skin sloughing and blistering, but the extremely rare LETHAL ACANTHOLYTIC resulting in an agonizing 10 or so days.
Not the tragic and difficult but rare osteogenesis imperfecta, where the child lives with painful frequent fractures, but LETHAL osteogenesis imperfecta.
But please do ignore the actual cases in favor of scenarios that make you feel morally superior.
The reason that there are only three clinics…..because most doctors don’t want the death threats, and people camping outside their homes, like the kind of people who follow people Reverend Robert Schenk:
‘A July 1992 LIFE magazine article, The Great Divide, reported that Reverend Robert Schenk, member of anti-choice coalition Operation rescue, attended a demonstration outside an abortion clinic in Buffalo, NY, with “Baby Tia”, a 7-inch, gray-tinted and formaldehyde-soaked dead fetus. In the escalating madness of the crowd, the fetus was dropped onto the sneaker-trodden street. Authorities arrested Schenk and confiscated the fetus, which was taken to a coroner, only to be identified as an approximately 20-week-old stillborn.’
He was one who was known for stunts and protested outside of home of Dr. Barnett Slepian.
Six years later, while cooking dinner for his wife and four children, Slepian was shot to death through his kitchen window by James Kopp, a volunteer at Operation Rescue’s Binghamton, N.Y., office. Kopp also a follower of Randall Terry, (who doesn’t want any government money to go to contraception).
flap Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Sorry, Oldlefty, a couple of unique or extreme cases do not justify all the butchery that goes on vis-a-vis late-term abortion.
Type II OI generally results in death by one year. I don’t think that justifies killing a child any more than knowing that your 2-year-old has muscular dystrophy and killing him off.
It has nothing to do with moral superiority…it has to do with protecting life. Why don’t you speak out for all those who have been killed instead of the one or two anecdotal cases that you think justify this horrendous practice?
Is waterboarding ever justified? I could use the same argument. Torture is torture. Late-term abortion is late-term abortion. Murder is murder.
OldLefty Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
I’m sorry, flap, the more I learn, the more it becomes clear that these “ unique or extreme cases” are the only reasons the late term abortions are done.
It is nothing like “knowing that your 2-year-old has muscular dystrophy and killing him off.”
The more I hear this debate the more conv1nced I become that it REALLY is about nothing but a sanctimonious need to feel superior over those who are faced with these most tragic personal decisions.
If it had anything to do with protecting life, there are a million lives to worry about where your concern would be reasonable, efficacious and welcome.
I could also ask you “Why don’t you speak out for all those who have been killed in this immoral war for profit, or is it OK if you call them collateral damage?
You can call it murder, but that does not make it so anymore than it is so for those who call unnecessary war murder.
steve Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 5:53 pm
I am not a fan of abortions,but a woman has her rights and to state such vile saying Tiller is a terrorist doing something legal is same sort of vile you heard from folks againist the civil rights movement.
Deb Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
Saying it is ok because it is legal is like saying slavery was ok because it was legal.
June 9th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
I don’t condone what happened to Tiller. ~ Deb
Spare me your phoney outrage.
trees are people too Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
What’s the date for the Abortion Pride Parade?
Deb Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:44 pm
I’m not outraged, just saddened for him and his family. Plus, it does not help in the debate against abortions.
June 9th, 2009 at 5:41 pm
[...] Alan discusses the troubling implications of the decision to close Dr. George Tiller’s abortion [...]
June 9th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
Unfortunately this is a result of the USA’S laws allowing people to bear arms, straight forward and simple. Any Country that as a Constitution that allows people to bear arms must suffer the consequences of such actions. Over recent years there as been horrrific massacers of inocent people in the USA, and this is no different to the Colombine masacre. You can call it Terrorism, radical extrimists, religous nutters, far right pro life fanatics, it all comes back to the same thing, give any fanatic the right to have a gun, and he or she will use it. Pro life extrimists believe they can lose at the ballot box, but win with a gun.
June 9th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
Alan, by using this title for your blog, you have become a terrorist. You are using words to inflame the situation. You are using words to terrorize the public and turn them against this sick man and his friends. The person who committed this murder may well have been a terrorist at heart, but to call him a terrorist? You can call him a mis-guided soul, a sick individual. A person who had a bad upbringing. A victim of a low I.Q. and poor religious training.
The reality is, the person who did this probably thought he was actually doing God’s will (just like the Muslim terrorists) but does this make him a terrorist? Or is he just a sick person? A person who needs our help. By closing the center this family is just moving on, just as we all should.
People who do this type of thing are wrong. Does that make them terrorists?
What makes a person worthy of the title ‘terrorist’?
June 9th, 2009 at 9:04 pm
Because it is HER body, it is HER choice. Noone else makes HER do anything with HER own body.
What about the part where it’s the child’s body? When does the child gain “The Right To Privacy”?
flap Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 12:34 am
It’s not a child! It’s a fetus (which essentially means child)!
Even if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it’s mere TISSUE (just like the rest of us)! Despite all scientific, factual, medical reality pointing to the fact that it’s a human being that should have legal rights: CHOICE, CHOICE, CHOICE!
TDro319 Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
“medical reality pointing to the fact that it’s a human being that should have legal rights: CHOICE, CHOICE, CHOICE!”
Unless these “fetuses” die in an unnecessary war, then it’s called “collateral damage” and is therefore justified. I guess these fetuses give up their “legal rights” once they become post-born children.
June 9th, 2009 at 11:24 pm
EricG: Quit lying. You say “This always disturbs me.
Someone claiming to know the mind of God.”
Do you deny that God thinks racism is evil? What about priests abusing altar boys? Or genocide? Or the killing of Dr. Tiller? Or war of aggression? How about sex with chickens? I say even YOU think that God detests all but the last of these things. Am I wrong?
Pizzaman
June 10th, 2009 at 3:32 am
The question whether the killing of Dr. Tiller was an act of terror or just a murder is actually pretty interesting. It depends on his intent. If it was to scare other doctors into abandoning the practice of abortion, then it was terror. If that was not his intent, then it wasn’t terror; it was “merely” a pre-meditated murder. But aside from the political advantage to be had from calling it one thing or another, what difference does it make, really? He took a human life. His only conceivable defense would be that he acted in immediate defense of another human life. Much as I detest late term abortion — which unquestionably involves the taking of human life — Tiller cannot make out that defense. True is true. EricG to the contrary notwithstanding, life IS sacred, even Tiller’s.
flap Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Here, here, Pizzaman. I completely agree.
June 10th, 2009 at 3:46 am
“Do you see why it seems to me like Republican / Libertarian logic?”
Average James: Please dont give the Republicans more credit than they deserve.
THey’re just religious conservatives. They pretend to be fiscal conservatives(which Libertarians are), but they have no real commitment to fiscal conservatism.Seen no evidence yet to the contrary. No conservative here has yet disapproved of the government forcing someone who didnt approve of the war, to pay for that war.
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 8:08 am
taxes if to be implemented are always across the board, that’s the way they work in our country. Fighting that would be like fighting your shadow.
June 10th, 2009 at 7:38 am
Friend:
I do agree with your message.
I believe the reason Alan posted this was on account of Right Wing Media (such as Fox News) calling activists who are opposed to their views as terrorists. Take Bill Ayers for example.
If the murderer of Dr Tiller is no more than a sick person, as you said, so must you ask everyone to view Bill Ayers. Regardless of the fact that he still feels the same way.He just continues to be sick. If you dont find the need to disagree with that portrayal, then your position here will sound hypocritical.
Seeing the tone of your post, I dare say I presume you would disagree with Bill Ayers’ portrayal as a terrorist as well.Amen.
June 10th, 2009 at 7:44 am
for the record…they are both terrorists…
Billy Ayers is a classic example of a terrorists, Roeder isn’t a classic example because he is more of an assassin, he picked a target and made a pointed attack on that target, he didn’t leave much room for potentially hurting anyone else (I suppose he could of missed and hit someone else) But his intent was definitely terror against the abortion industry.
Speaking of Assassins, did anyone see the Matt Laurer interview with the lady who tried to assasinate Gerald Ford. It was interesting.
June 10th, 2009 at 8:06 am
“for the record…they are both terrorists…”
That too, is a reasonable position.
I just wanted to specify that I found (other than Friend), every other voice (other than you too,of course) who wouldnt call Dr Tiller’s murderer a terrorist, didnt seem inclined to protest labeling Ayers a terrorist. THAT position, as Um Cara has pointed out many times, is quite within your freedom of speech, but as I point out repeatedly, is hypocritical.
TDro319 Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
Nobody died in the Ayer’s bombings
“Although the bomb that rocked the Pentagon was itsy-bitsy – weighing close to two pounds – it caused ‘tens of thousands of dollars’ of damage. The operation cost under $500, and no one was killed or even hurt.”
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
June 11th, 2009 at 3:16 am
do you think Ayers would have been displeased if someone died in the bombing?
It sounds like he’s not a killer simply because he’s a terrible terrorists. That does not make him any less of a terrorist.
June 10th, 2009 at 8:54 am
As I note, even you laid down qualifiers why you find Ayers more of a terrorist than Dr Tiller’s murderer.Yawn.
June 10th, 2009 at 8:55 am