Iraqis Jubliant America Is Leaving
June 29th, 2009, 7:17 PM EDT
Way to win those hearts and minds! Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki declared June 30 a national holiday. I wonder if they’ll celebrate it yearly.
“All of us are happy — Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds on this day,” Waleed al-Bahadili said as he celebrated at the park. “The Americans harmed and insulted us too much.”
There was even a countdown clock and fireworks. Sounds like New Year’s Eve and the Fourth of July wrapped up into one giant party.
I cant blame them… I’d be dancing in the streets too if a lot of Americans I know left America!
Edward Ayres Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 12:33 am
Good luck, folks. Let’s see how well you’re all getting along about one year after our troops leave in large numbers. I’m sure the Shiite, Kurds, and Sunnis will sitting around the campfire singing Kumbaya.
EricG Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 12:42 am
So what’s the solution, Edward?
Stay there forever?
Kregg Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 12:43 am
We need to stay long enough to assure that our efforts have not gone for naught..
EricG Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 12:57 am
I am not so sure we can do anything else to assure that our efforts have not been for naught. I think we reached that point a long time ago. We have been there for eight years … I think we covered that.
But I’m not on the ground in the streets of Baghdad or anything.
Kregg Reply:
July 1st, 2009 at 12:46 am
Sorry Ed, 27 of them were killed by a car bomb today. How’d that song go? ;-)
Daddio Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 9:41 am
Who are these Americans that you wish would leave America Howard?
June 29th, 2009 at 7:52 pm
We need to remember this the next time we want to nation build.
4moreyears Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
CRH3E,
In all fairness to The Decider, who campaigned against NationBuilding, Bush2 only went to NationBuilding after NO WMD’s and Saddam Hussein was a BAD MAN. It’s easy to see how they can make these mistakes when you attack a country that had NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11…
libpatriot Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 11:26 pm
4MoreYears, you’re right, George W. Bush did indeed campaign against NationBuilding, and even chastized Al Gore (in the second presidential debate of 2000) for the Clinton administration’s toppling the military junta in Haiti to restore the democratically-elected Aristide.
Ironic, isn’t it, that W. should criticize our involvement in Haiti, saying “The United States should not be involoved in nation building!”, and then he got us into a far more costly situation in Iraq.
June 29th, 2009 at 8:00 pm
I guess now they only call us the Great Satan in a normal voice and don’t scream it at the top of their lungs anymore.
A simple “Thank You” to our soldiers would be nice!
In Iran it’s another story. Ayatollah’s Gone Wild. Ah… Islam in Action. How peaceful. What an awesome religion.
VegasLib Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 11:05 am
You really think they give a sh*t about our soldiers? Our efforts there were meaningless and Iraq will continue just the way it’s been. The only losers are us, because those fools ain’t got sh*t to lose.
June 29th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
I would trip out if they sang:
Na Na Na Na
Na Na Na Na
Hey Hey Hey
Goodbye!
:)
RDM Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 8:40 pm
That’s a suicide bomber song sung at graduation.
June 29th, 2009 at 8:20 pm
Gee,I wonder why…after all the things we dun for them…am nearly hurt…
4moreyears Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 9:03 pm
“Our Exit will be Greeted with Flowers!”
Maybe THAT is what Dick, “they will greet us with flowers, Cheney really meant! Quack!
June 29th, 2009 at 8:30 pm
WHY are they jubilant? Because we’re finally getting F out? Or because we’ve enabled their freedom? It makes all the difference in the world. What’s the answer, Alan? And how do you know?
pizzaman
Howard K Fluffenburger Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 9:12 pm
geez dude try reading the whole paragraph os something next time, duh… here , I will slowly read it to you
…. “All of us are happy — Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds on this day,” Waleed al-Bahadili said as he celebrated at the park. “The Americans harmed and insulted us too much.”
June 29th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
That’s exactly the point! Who the hell is Waleed al-Bahadili? A snow cone vendor? A knowdjedable offical. Tell me, Fluttenburger. You can’t can you? No. Because you don’t know. Waleed al-Bahadili said as he celebrated at the park, “The Americans harmed and insulted us too much.” You and I wpuld have to agree that we both favor a pullout IF Waleed spoke for a majority: You’d pull out because they are too good for us and the blood we spent. I’d pull out because we’re too good for them, the ungrateful SOBs. Get the contrast?
Why does Alan tick off the names of only the dead Iraqi soldiers, and not the ones fighting in Afghanistan?
crh3e Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 9:48 pm
“I’d pull out because we’re too good for them, the ungrateful SOBs.”
-isn’t that what the Europeans tried to tell us before we invaded Iraq? They told us the people there couldn’t appreciate democracy so why bother giving it to them.
crh3e Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 9:50 pm
Albeit at the same time getting cheap oil from Iraq.
RDM Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 10:56 pm
Where’s all that cheap oil you say we’ve been getting?
crh3e Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 11:14 pm
at least read the comments before replying. I was saying that Pizzaman’s talk about the ungrateful SOBs sounds a lot like the warnings the Europeans gave us before invading Iraq. I then said that they said this while at the same time getting cheap oil, so that might’ve been another reason certain European countries didn’t want us to invade Iraq.
EricG Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 12:47 am
“You’d pull out because they are too good for us and the blood we spent. I’d pull out because we’re too good for them, the ungrateful SOBs”
You just called the nation of Iraq a bunch of ungrateful SOBs for getting invaded by the US and ruled by a dictator.
Do you feel good about yourself?
I would hope not.
June 29th, 2009 at 9:37 pm
Nothing like bombing a country into democracy that doesn’t want it.
blissfulconservative Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
You mean the women I saw on 60 minutes the other night who can finally be trained as Nurses’ aides aren’t happy that they have more freedom to have a career? They certainly seemed excited.
WOW. I didn’t know that EVERY Iraqi was upset that they have more freedoms. Thanks for clearing that up Danielle.
Don’t think they have said “no thanks” for the democracy….think they are just happy to get their country back asap.
crh3e Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 10:08 pm
True they like the new government and rights thereof. But I think we could agree that they didn’t want the bombing part of the deal.
blissfulconservative Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 10:15 pm
I don’t think anyone likes bombs. Bet they are happy they aren’t dying at the hands of their own government anymore.
crh3e Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 10:22 pm
Dying at the hands of their own government could be a matter of time. After all, you never know who will be elected the next leader and if he/she may want to kill Iraqis of differing sects.
blissfulconservative Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 10:28 pm
crh3e
WHEW. I am glad that’s not the attitude we took during WWII.
crh3e Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 10:31 pm
see below
Kregg Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 10:15 pm
Danielle said: Nothing like bombing a country into democracy that doesn’t want it.
K: Near as I can tell, Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki was freely elected by the citizens of Iraq. Seems to me they’d of changed that little arrangement by now if they ‘didn’t want it”, don’tcha’ think?
Danielle Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 10:20 pm
I’m sure the many parents that had to watch their children’s face be blown off by a bomb aren’t feeling really grateful right now.
blissfulconservative Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 10:25 pm
I wonder how many of them lost a child under saddam?? hmmmmm.
I am betting the women who were raped by his republican guard are happy they are gone. The women who couldn’t get healthcare before, whose husbands think it was a sin for them to see a male physician…..all the while no women are trained to be nurses so they get zero prenatal care are happier now.
the folks who have electricity and running water are probably pretty happy. How bout the kids who now have a school to attend?
You act like there are ZERO happy stories that came out of this…and that is CRAP. CRAP. CRAP.
It’s like saying “all those germans and jewish people who were bombed by the allies aren’t feeling really grateful right now”.
crh3e Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
“It’s like saying “all those germans and jewish people who were bombed by the allies aren’t feeling really grateful right now”.”
-comparing apples and oranges. WW II was not a preemptive war started because of fear of WMD. We were attacked first before we fought that war.
Danielle Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 10:35 pm
“I wonder how many of them lost a child under Saddam”
Good one Bliss – yeah….our standards really shouldn’t be any higher than that of a hideous dictator. Just like condoning practices of torture – yeah…our country shouldn’t conduct ourselves with standards any higher than that of a terrorist.
Really makes our credibility for defending human rights so much stronger……sure why not, let’s just act like them….we’ll show those SOB’s who’s in charge.
One of the best quotes I’ve heard:
“America has always shown it’s strength by the power of our example than the example of our power”.
Lab Rat Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 10:41 pm
blissfulconservative Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 10:25 pm
I wonder how many of them lost a child under saddam?? hmmmmm.
I am betting the women who were raped by his republican guard are happy they are gone.
LR: What about the women and children who were raped and killed by US soldiers?
blissfulconservative Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 10:59 pm
danielle
I thought your standard was to PREVENT human suffering, and that you were FOR human rights?? Should we stand by and let dictators have their way??
Watcha gonna do if obama decides to go into Iran, or we go to war with North Korea, OR we have to go back into iraq, stay in afghanistan indefinately.
Once again, you have NOTHING to say of the good that has come out of the war. NOTHING. Maybe you should go stand beside lab rat?
Nice spin danielle. I’ll be dizzy from that one for a LONG time.
And lab rat, I take your comment personally considering I have MANY MANY friends who are and have been in iraq and afghanistan so you can say crap like that. Very, very vietnam warish. Would you spit in their faces given the chance?
Danielle Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 11:19 pm
That totally depends on the those situations.
The ONLY reason to conduct a preemptive strike, would be an imminent threat (based on UN International War Law as well as a moral obligation).
So I can’t answer your questions Bliss – I would need to know the exact information as to why would the enter those wars, if we indeed do.
blissfulconservative Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 11:21 pm
I guess ignoring 12 UN resolutions isn’t good enough. 20, maybe….not 12.
Kregg Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 11:28 pm
Danielle said: I’m sure the many parents that had to watch their children’s face be blown off by a bomb aren’t feeling really grateful right now.
K: Maybe if they’d voted Sadaam out of office it wouldn’t have been no children killed. Oh, wait, they COULDN’T have voted Sadaam out of office. My bad…
K: Well, and then there are the parents who strapped bombs onTO their children, but I”m guessing that since that wasn’t US that did that you have no interest in criticizing that particular hobby.
K: Lastly but not least, what makes you think all of those parents who were SAVED from having to watch their childrens’ faces being blown off by Sadaam and his friends wouldn’t be happy enough to equal the score a bit?
pizzaman Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 12:00 am
Parents never want their childrens’ faces blown off. This is why we fight wars only when absolutely necessary, as when it was necessary to preserve the Union or save Europe in WWII. Was war in Iraq necessary? Aa a hard-core conservative, even I have to say I have my doubts. Were they — the Iraqis— and their democracy worth it? Liberals say no. I’m not so sure either, given the jubilation of Waleed al-Bahadili. Again, one main question is “Why is he so jubilant?” Maybe he and hundreds of thousands were worth it, if they’re jubilant about their new freedom. If not, screw ‘em. The left was right: They weren’t worth it. What’s the truthful answer, Alan, and how do you know?
Danielle Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 12:06 am
Oh I see…so him being a Senator and thinking that the country of Spain is a threat isn’t an issue?
And when did Obama say that was going to invade Israel?
EricG Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 12:51 am
As long as we are playing the role of ‘World Police’ and outting all the dictators of the world we should try not to be surprised as our economy crumbles at home and our national standing becomes the same as those we seek to dispose.
Lee Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
“I guess ignoring 12 UN resolutions isn’t good enough. 20, maybe….not 12.”
So.. when do we invade Israel then? Or at least put collective sanctions, right?
Oh yes, I forget, the UN only applies to who we decide are ‘the bad guys’ other nations can violate all they like..
blissfulconservative Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
Israel is an ally. You want to invade our allies? Now go read those links I gave you.
Danielle Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 11:47 pm
Why not? McCain considers the country of Spain a threat!
blissfulconservative Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 11:53 pm
McCain isn’t the President.
TDro319 Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
BC: “McCain isn’t the President.”
TD: Thank God for that! We’d be in a war with Spain if the election turned out in McCain’s favor. Much as you like war, Blisster, many in the U.S. really hate the bloodshed, myself included.
Lee Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 10:38 pm
“K: Near as I can tell, Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki was freely elected by the citizens of Iraq. Seems to me they’d of changed that little arrangement by now if they ‘didn’t want it”, don’tcha’ think?”
No, this is a classic example of a Pyrrhic victory. If you asked the average Iraqi if they wanted Democracy, I’m sure its a Yes, however, the more pertinent question is now that they have a fragile Democracy, Was it worth it?
blissfulconservative Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 11:00 pm
I dunno Lee. How many new americans would have answered YES post 1776 or 1865???
Lee Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 11:28 pm
Not really apples to apples comparisons here since the Iraqi people neither fought back against Imperialists nor was this a civil war.
However, in several decades, maybe you have a point. Unfortunately, that’s a huge ‘maybe’ and not exactly comforting to the majority who have seen not only incredible suffering, but a complete destruction of their quality of life.
Kregg Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 11:52 pm
Lee said: No, this is a classic example of a Pyrrhic victory. If you asked the average Iraqi if they wanted Democracy, I’m sure its a Yes, however, the more pertinent question is now that they have a fragile Democracy, Was it worth it?
K: To who? I’ll bet you think we established a democracy in Iraq for the Iraqi people, don’t you?
Lee Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 12:08 am
“To who? I’ll bet you think we established a democracy in Iraq for the Iraqi people, don’t you?”
I really hope you’re being facetious here and are not serious in terms of to whom the question should be directed..
Kregg Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 12:13 am
Lee said: I really hope you’re being facetious here and are not serious in terms of to whom the question should be directed…
K: What makes you think we established a democracy in Iraq for the Iraqis benefit?
Lee Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 12:22 am
“K: What makes you think we established a democracy in Iraq for the Iraqis benefit?”
Thats not the point.. Sure, I’m right with you if you want to suggest we didn’t really care about the Iraqi’s, and Hey, welcome to the land of the enlightened..
However, when considering the question of whether it ‘was worth it’, even considering the several thousand brave American lives lost in this endeavor, morally the only people who can answer that question are the recipients of the ‘gift’ who had to pay 99% of the price..
Kregg Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 12:41 am
Lee said: Thats not the point..
K: But maybe it IS the point when deciding whether the Iraq war was ‘necessary’ or not.
L: Sure, I’m right with you if you want to suggest we didn’t really care about the Iraqi’s, and Hey, welcome to the land of the enlightened..
K: I’m not implying in any way that we ‘didn’t really care about the Iraqis’ – much as you seem to revel in the idea. As to the ‘land of the enlightened’, I”m not sure you’re in a position to be welcoming anybody…;-)
L: However, when considering the question of whether it ‘was worth it’, even considering the several thousand brave American lives lost in this endeavor, morally the only people who can answer that question are the recipients of the ‘gift’ who had to pay 99% of the price..
K: Not so. ALL parties who benefited have a right to ‘answer that question…”
Lee Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 5:03 am
“K: But maybe it IS the point when deciding whether the Iraq war was ‘necessary’ or not.”
Even if this was true, this is not the same question as ‘Was the Iraq war worth it?’.
“K: I’m not implying in any way that we ‘didn’t really care about the Iraqis’ – much as you seem to revel in the idea. As to the ‘land of the enlightened’, I”m not sure you’re in a position to be welcoming anybody…;-)”
Simply put, this war was an opportunististic attempt to further our own interests or what Rumsfeld/Cheney/Wolfowitz etc ‘perceived’ as being in own interests. The humanitarian needs of the Iraqi’s, like the needs of average Saudi etc are quite secondary to what economically and geopolitically benefits our country.
“K: Not so. ALL parties who benefited have a right to ‘answer that question…”
Again, not the issue. Heck, someone in Mongolia has a right to ‘answer the question’ if they want. But since the Iraqi’s paid the most (by a long margin), only they can make an overall assessment of whether its worth it or not.
To use a business analogy, if you had a business that was 99% owned by ‘Joe’ and 1% owned by you, then really, your opinions are mostly irrelevant and the only person who makes the decisions is Joe. Similarly 99% of the cost here was borne by the Iraqi’s themselves in the form of hundreds of thousands of lost lives, lost infrastructure, lost quality of life and for many, a lost future.
Kregg Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 10:20 am
K prv: “K: But maybe it IS the point when deciding whether the Iraq war was ‘necessary’ or not.”
Lee said: Even if this was true, this is not the same question as ‘Was the Iraq war worth it?’.
K; Of course it is. When making a value judgment on the war’s “worth” one must ask ‘to WHOM was the war ‘worth it’ “. I believe the Iraq war was ‘worth it’ to the US.
L: Simply put, this war was an opportunististic attempt to further our own interests or what Rumsfeld/Cheney/Wolfowitz etc ‘perceived’ as being in own interests. The humanitarian needs of the Iraqi’s, like the needs of average Saudi etc are quite secondary to what economically and geopolitically benefits our country.
K: Some things cannot adequately be ’simply put’ and I suspect that GW is working on a chessboard somewhat larger than yours. There are many benefits to accrue in the future that will make this war ‘worth it’ to both we AND the Iraqis but I”ve seen few on this board that seem to grasp that reality.
“K prv: Not so. ALL parties who benefited have a right to ‘answer that question…”
Again, not the issue. Heck, someone in Mongolia has a right to ‘answer the question’ if they want. But since the Iraqi’s paid the most (by a long margin), only they can make an overall assessment of whether its worth it or not.
K: Is somebody in Mongolia involved in the war? The US is involved in the war – WE have a right to determine it’s ‘worth’ to us.
L: To use a business analogy, if you had a business that was 99% owned by ‘Joe’ and 1% owned by you, then really, your opinions are mostly irrelevant and the only person who makes the decisions is Joe. Similarly 99% of the cost here was borne by the Iraqi’s themselves in the form of hundreds of thousands of lost lives, lost infrastructure, lost quality of life and for many, a lost future.
K: You presume that the Iraqis ‘own 99% of the business’ but they don’t.
Lee Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 11:47 am
Kregg,
When the Iraqi’s have lost hundreds of thousands of lives to our thousands. When the Iraqi’s have generally had their homes and businesses ruined and participated in a living hell for 6 years while we sit comfortably in our recliners thousands of miles away. When you consider those facts, clearly the Iraqi people have paid at least a hundred times the ‘human cost’ that we have for this war.
Given that, morally and logically, it would be the height of selfishness and arrogance to deny that when determining whether the war was worth it, the only opinion that really matters is that of the Iraqi people.
Kregg Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 11:59 am
Lee said: When the Iraqi’s have lost hundreds of thousands of lives to our thousands. When the Iraqi’s have generally had their homes and businesses ruined and participated in a living hell for 6 years while we sit comfortably in our recliners thousands of miles away. When you consider those facts, clearly the Iraqi people have paid at least a hundred times the ‘human cost’ that we have for this war.
K: While it is true that the Iraqis have lost more lives than have Americans in this war what makes you think that this wars’ ‘value’ can be determined by lives lost?
L: Given that, morally and logically, it would be the height of selfishness and arrogance to deny that when determining whether the war was worth it, the only opinion that really matters is that of the Iraqi people.
K: I disagree. There are more ‘players’ in this war than the Iraqi people. The US and the other nations in the region were/are also players (why do you think so many foreign fighters rushed to Iraq to blow things up and kill people?) and those players also must ‘value’ the war from their perspective.
Lee Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 10:13 pm
Well I think we are at an impasse.
I think the cost of a war is always ‘calculated’ primarily by the loss of lives. But anyway I’m really not sure what other yardstick you could use that would not show the Iraqi’s paying a disproportionate portion of the cost.
In fact, I think the only unanswered question here is whether the answers will still be the same in 15-20 years afer the ‘New Iraq’ has had a chance to grow into whatever its going to be. I remain personally skeptical that the answers will be more positive.
Kregg Reply:
July 1st, 2009 at 1:07 am
Lee said: I think the cost of a war is always ‘calculated’ primarily by the loss of lives. But anyway I’m really not sure what other yardstick you could use that would not show the Iraqi’s paying a disproportionate portion of the cost.
K: You started out talking about whether the war was ‘worth it’ and now you talk solely about cost – which are two completely different things. My point was that the value of a democratic Iraq sitting squarely in a region teeming with dictators may be ‘worth it’. A strategic partner sitting right next to Iran – our real problem – should things go south might be ‘worth it’. A regime destroyed for attempting the assassination of one of our ex-presidents may be worth it’. The list goes on and must be considered in aggregate – not just on what the current Iraqis think.
Lee Reply:
July 1st, 2009 at 2:03 am
Kregg,
It’s very simple.. In order to assess whether anything is ‘worth it’ you compare the benefits against the cost. Therefore it is impossible to assess whether something is ‘worth it’ without assessing the cost.
And then you have just illustrated what I was trying to point out earlier.. namely that by focussing on was it worth it to us (the US) and looking solely at _our_ costs and benefits from this action, is extremely selfish, arrogant and really imperialistic.
Also, please stop bringing up this nonsense about the assassination of Bush Sr. If you bothered to research that beyond the desperate propaganda, you’d find there is actually no real evidence that it was true and certainly nowhere near enough real evidence to use as justification for a war! The list of desperate excuses for the justification of that war which have little or no basis in fact, sadly does go on..
As for a strategic ‘partner’. Please! If anything we’ve actually helped Iran by taking away their biggest real enemy, and taking away their biggest military concern. Iraq is hardly our ‘ally’. I think the best outcome we can hope for is another Pakistan and in the worst case, maybe a country just like the old Iraq but led by a new US-hating dictator (but this time theocratic) like Moqtada Al-Sadr etc
Kregg Reply:
July 1st, 2009 at 11:19 am
Lee said: It’s very simple.. In order to assess whether anything is ‘worth it’ you compare the benefits against the cost. Therefore it is impossible to assess whether something is ‘worth it’ without assessing the cost.
K: I”ve seen you address the ‘costs’ but not the benefits.
L: And then you have just illustrated what I was trying to point out earlier.. namely that by focussing on was it worth it to us (the US) and looking solely at _our_ costs and benefits from this action, is extremely selfish, arrogant and really imperialistic.
K: Only if you are a US basher. All parties will consider the cost/benefit ratio and make their own decisions regarding their own involvement and to imply that the Iraqis are the only ones ‘justified’ in doing so is a bit misguided IMO.
L: Also, please stop bringing up this nonsense about the assassination of Bush Sr. If you bothered to research that beyond the desperate propaganda, you’d find there is actually no real evidence that it was true and certainly nowhere near enough real evidence to use as justification for a war! The list of desperate excuses for the justification of that war which have little or no basis in fact, sadly does go on..
K: Well, I guess I”ll have to accept your expert analysis on whether or not Sadaam tried to assassinate Bush 1 in spite of all the other sources who say it DID happen. What do you use for ‘proof’ that such an attempt never happened?
L: As for a strategic ‘partner’. Please! If anything we’ve actually helped Iran by taking away their biggest real enemy, and taking away their biggest military concern. Iraq is hardly our ‘ally’. I think the best outcome we can hope for is another Pakistan and in the worst case, maybe a country just like the old Iraq but led by a new US-hating dictator (but this time theocratic) like Moqtada Al-Sadr etc
K: We’ve put Iran on notice that we can attack them from their own backyard. We’ve shown that we can take down a nation who attacks us. Its interesting that you have no faith in the Iraqi people to move forward with a democracy.
June 29th, 2009 at 9:58 pm
Alan al Apologia quotes: “All of us are happy — Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds on this day,” Waleed al-Bahadili said as he celebrated at the park. “The Americans harmed and insulted us too much.”
K: sniffle, sniffle… Maybe next time they won’t harbor a world class criminal who trained and financed terrorism against the US.
crh3e Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 10:11 pm
Remember we took Saddam’s side during the Iran-Iraq war.
Kregg Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 11:29 pm
crh said: Remember we took Saddam’s side during the Iran-Iraq war.
K: Remember France took our side during the Revolutionary war. So what?
pizzaman Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 12:02 am
What follows from this? That the lesser of two evils is never murderous enough to be stopped? What’s your point?
June 29th, 2009 at 10:08 pm
I guess nobody remembers when these people voted in a democratic election?
How happy they were to have a voice in who runs their government?
Wasn’t that a good moment?
Oh, wait….that’s right….most of you liberals would actually prefer an old fashioned dictatorship just so long as you are the ones in power…….
craig7120 Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 2:12 am
So Trees the end justify your means?
In our opinion, Is Saudi Arabia a dictatorship?
TDro319 Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
T: “Oh, wait….that’s right….most of you liberals would actually prefer an old fashioned dictatorship just so long as you are the ones in power…….”
TD: Actually your hero Dubya said that. And I quote,
“I told all four that there are going to be some times where we don’t agree with each other, but that’s OK. If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I’m the dictator,” Bush joked.
June 30th, 2009 at 1:03 am
lets see..
America demolishes my old buildings…
Sends in troops to rebuild and train troops and infrastructure…sends BILLIONS to my country….
well hell.. I think we messed up was we diddnt put in a Wal-Mart, McDonalds and ArabDisney.
And this is bad how??!!!
TDro319 Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
“And this is bad how??!!!”
4000+ dead American soldiers and hundreds of thousands of killed and/or displaced Iraqi civilians.
But you may have something there. Maybe Japan will bomb us, demolish our old buildings, train troops in the Japanese way, and rebuild the demolished buildings with Japanese style buildings. Great concept!! We’ll have them bomb your city first, and if you’re still alive to witness the rebirth, you can revel in your joy!
Suzanne Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 6:57 pm
Sorry, I cant buy the sorrow of our fighting men and women. Yes, It is tragic to their families that they lost a loved one, However, when they signed up for the military (and it was voluntary) that there was a real possibility of them getting killed in action. Every soldier knows this. So I cant lament the loss of troops as you are. Its a flawed argument. More people are being killed in our inner cities than in Iraq. But I dont see you beating a drum of injustice for that.
The civilian deaths are regrettable, however, it is not a secret that in acts of war. occupation etc, there will be collateral damage.
And I do happen to like japanese food and Anime.
TDro319 Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 9:56 pm
Then since you feel civilian deaths are regrettable and collateral damage is inevitable, I guess you wouldn’t mind being invaded by another country – maybe a country that’s looking to impose their beliefs on you.
And I love this excuse you conservatives use to justify the deaths of our soldiers, “they enlisted so they knew what they were getting into. They had it coming”. I thought it was the responsibility of the military to sacrifice our soldiers only when absolutely necessary. Now, how “necessary” was the Iraq war? Were they responsible for 9/11? Nope. Were they harboring WMD’s? I don’t think so.
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
July 1st, 2009 at 2:29 am
we honor the fallen for their service, and prefer to not denigrate their service. They were volunteers and knew the risks involved. Like I’ve said previously…this argument must have been so much easier during the draft era of Vietnam….dragging poor unwilling souls into combat and leading them to slaughter.
TDro319 Reply:
July 1st, 2009 at 11:12 am
If you are accusing me of denigrating the service of our fallen, you are grossly mistaken. I was one of the few who wanted our troops to come home WHEN THEY WERE STILL ALIVE. And for that I was labeled “unAmerican”, “unpatriotic” and was told “I hate the troops” by the war mongers.
And like I said before, it’s the military’s job to see that our troops are not sacrificed unnecessarily, regardless of whether they enlisted or were drafted. And a war for profit is, in my opinion, unnecessary.
As for the VietNam war, you can accuse Nixon of a lot of things, but he has my respect because the VietNam war ended under his watch and he abolished the draft.
TDro319 Reply:
July 1st, 2009 at 11:15 am
And another thing. You didn’t have to worry about your hero the Dick Cheney. He had better things to do at the time than serve his country. Now he’s more than happy to sacrifice our soldiers so he can make a buck.
Supporting our troops? Indeed!
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
July 1st, 2009 at 11:25 am
i wasn’t directly accusing you..but if your conscience is pricking your heart???
TDro319 Reply:
July 1st, 2009 at 1:53 pm
I said IF you are accusing me, Guido. I have a clear conscience. I didn’t support this ill fated “war on trrrr”. And I was vilified by the right (and some misguided leftists) for wanting to keep our soldiers alive.
RDM Reply:
July 1st, 2009 at 2:07 pm
TDro319,
So you don’t believe in the draft? Why not?
If you don’t stand behind our troops…Please feel free to stand in front of them.
TDro319 Reply:
July 1st, 2009 at 4:29 pm
No. I don’t believe in the draft. I don’t want the government telling our young people that it’s their turn to die, especially when some of the biggest war mongers were draft dodgers themselves. Case in point, your heroes the Dick “5 VietNam Deferments” Cheney and John ” I had no desire to die in a Southeast Asian rice paddy” Bolton.
And if you don’t stand behind our troops, RDM, feel free to stand in front of them. Right next to Cheney and Bolton.
TDro319 Reply:
July 1st, 2009 at 5:17 pm
I don’t believe the government should dictate when our children should die.
And if you don’t stand behind our troops, RDM, please feel free to stand in front of them along with Cheney and Bolton.
JaredfromTexas Reply:
July 1st, 2009 at 5:28 pm
TDRO,
I don’t believe the government should dictate when our children should die.
Then advocate against late-term abortion. At least the people who volunteer to join the military know there’s a chance they will be called to enforce national policy.
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
July 2nd, 2009 at 2:40 am
who hero worships Dick Cheney??? I just caught that line TDRO…I don’t think I’ve ever said a positive word for Dick Cheney on this website (I don’t think I’ve ever said a negative word about Cheney for that matter)
TDro319 Reply:
July 2nd, 2009 at 1:15 pm
“Then advocate against late-term abortion.”
Oh yeah Jared! We have women lining up to get these late term abortions. Maybe you should go and “set these women straight”. Just remember that bombing abortion clinics and killing doctors who perform them is illegal.
And I don’t think the people who volunteered to join the military expected to be put unnecessarily in harm’s way by the warhawks.
TDro319 Reply:
July 2nd, 2009 at 1:16 pm
Correction:
And if you don’t stand behind our troops, RDM, please feel free to stand in front of them along with Cheney, Bolton and Jared.
JaredfromTexas Reply:
July 2nd, 2009 at 1:29 pm
TDRO,
We have women lining up to get these late term abortions.
Tiller himself conducted more than 60,000 late term abortions…90% of which were purely convenience-related…
ANYONE who voluntarily joins the military knows there is the possiblity their job will put them in harm’s way…they also know their job is an extension of political policy. This means, military men and women can expect to respond when our country’s leaders ask them.
June 30th, 2009 at 5:59 am
I really wonder what percentage of Iraqi’s really feel this way. I would bet the vast majority of Iraqi’s are grateful to America for their freedoms. Of course Alan would NEVER post these people on his site. Doesn’t fit his agenda.
For the ungrateful few who still hate America in Iraq must not remember the mass graves and torture and rape rooms run by Saddam. Unless, of course they are the people who supported Saddam and helped run those torture and rape rooms, and helped fill those mass graves.
Lee Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 7:51 am
The truth is that if you recall the first days of ‘Mission Accomplished’ there was indeed a lot of jubilation, hope and excitement amongst Iraqi’s, particularly the Shiite’s and the Kurd’s.
Unfortunately, the reason why that overwhelmingly grateful sentiment disappeared is due to the fact that the Bush administration had no real post-invasion plan. Furthermore they were so inept that the vacuum we created led to the country being completely destabilized and devastated not to mention draining the US Treasury of hundreds of billions of dollars just to try and stop complete anarchy ala Somalia.
That’s why the average Iraqi has an attitude of “Don’t let the door hit you on the way out” versus “Thankyou so much for your sacrifices and the great gift you gave us”.
So stop living in a fantasy land that the media is suppressing the ‘majority’ of these feel-good stories. The reality is that these are too few and far between.
Daddio Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 8:38 am
I wonder about the media. Since Obama took the oath as president the mainstream media quit reporting about bombings in Iraq. They haven’t stopped. There are still homicide bombings going on over there. In fact one happened last week, I believe where somewhere around 100 or so were killed in two separate bombings. I don’t recall the msm reporting them. Now if Bush were still President…..
OldLefty Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 8:02 am
Daddio,
Why is it so hard to imagine that when you support and arm a brutal dictator, then play both sides in the Iran Iraq war, then fight a war that hurts those people, while calling for them to rise up, then sit back in dismay while they are slaughtered, then impose years of sanctions against them, then start another war against them, calling your bombing campaign, ”Shock and Awe”, and the civilian causalities, “collateral damage”, occupy the country, close down all the state run businesses, bring in foreigners to do the jobs that YOU used to do ( think of how much YOU hate immigrants taking our jobs), sign away profits of THEIR country to foreigners, hold elections whereby YOUR picks, get your military to help them campaign, while other candidates get death threats, loose their homes to ethnic cleansing, when Christians or a Sunnis, or a barbers or liquor salesmen are, being persecuted, or a women who was doctors or engineers who drank alcohol, and smoked, are now being pushed under the veil, would YOU we grateful?
Sounds a lot like the “bomb the heck out of Viet Nam, then complain that they are not grateful enough.
We can have a reasonable debate about these things, but I don’t think there is a debate as to the fact that this is how we are seen by that entire hemisphere.
It doesn’t have anything to do with that talking point, “hating America”, it has to do with dismay over the government caving into the pressures of the military industrial complex.
Or as Gen Smedley Butler said,
“I wouldn’t go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.”
Daddio Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 8:29 am
There you go with that Gen. Smedley quote again!! He sounds like a cartoon character.
You listed alot of things Lefty. At least half of which I don’t think is factual. You ran them all together it is hard to read.
Wars, like politics, make strange bedfellows Lefty. Just look at the history of wars and strange allies. Happens all the time.
You don’t tell a population to rise up against a thug then sit back and watch them get brutalized. I agree there. But Bush II didn’t do that.
In bombing raids you always have civilian causalties. In every war ever fought there are civilian causalties. It cannot be avoided. You never get used to it but it is a fact of life and war.
We brought in “foreigners” to rebuild Iraq. We did that in Germany, Japan, England, France, etc. That what America does. America has a HUGH heart.
Iraq, the last time I heard, had a SURPLUS of almost a hundred billion dollars. Who is taking their money?
Iraq held legal and fair elections. I think you are upset because those elections happened and helped make George Bush look good to the Iraqi people. You don’t like free and open and honest elections?
How many months did you spend in Iraq Lefty? Just asking because you seem to know everything that is going on over there. You seem to have all the inside information.
You bring up Vietnam. Ok. Carpet bombing did work in Vietnam. It drove the Vietcong crazy. Our mistake was actually stopping the bombing raids to go into several 30 day cease fires. That was a tactic of the VietCong so that they could regroup and rearm and get their senses back after the bombing raids.
They would consistently break every ceasefire when they were ready to fight again. We would carpet bomb them again, they would want another ceasefire to rearm and regroup then bread another ceasefire. Bad tactics by America at the time.
People are going to hate America if for no other reason than our standard of living. Why do you think they adore Obama in Europe? They see Obama taking America down the road to socialism and that socialism will degrade our standard of living.
Please, enough of this Gen. Smedley thing. I have seen this quote more than I care to remember. I see that Smedley doesn’t think the entire Constitution is worth fighting for.
OldLefty Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 8:57 am
Daddio,
I quote the General because his conclusion came after a long career, and he has been proven right time after time.
You claim, “In bombing raids you always have civilian causalties. In every war ever fought there are civilian causalties.”
That is why war must ALWAYS be the last resort, not the long time plan to trick people into for nefarious motives.
In Europe, we instituted the Marshall Plan, because we did not want even a whiff of war profiteering..
Most of the world and the ENTIRE eastern hemisphere believe that war profiteering was the only reason for this war.
The Iraqis were perfectly capable of doing their own jobs.
Most of my friends come from that part of the world, (Married to an Indian), and worked with many foreigners since the 70s .
One only has to read a few international newspapers, talk to a few people from different countries, to get a different perspective, to conclude what many Americans conclude 25 years later.
Most people over there don’t believe you can have legal and fair elections in an occupied country.
Some people hate America because they feel you deny the freedoms to them so you can have cheap access to their natural resources.
Most people think that there is a HUGE disconnect between the ideals of the American people and the actions of their government, and like a jilted spouse, are always the last to know.
Most Americans were surprised to find that after 25 long years , the Iranians HATED the Shah.
The rest of the world ALWAYS knew.
Read Smedley Butler’s book before you dismiss a general, who may be telling you an uncomfortable truth.
His WHOLE point is that we should ONLY fight for our self defense and our constitution.
I could ALSO say, “I see you can be duped onto anything, as long as those you want to believe tell you it’s “for freedom and the constitution,”, wink wink.
Daddio Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 9:09 am
Well, you spelled HUGE right. :)
I must get some quotes from Gen. Patton. I notice you never quote him.
I don’t believe we “occupy” Iraq. An occupier usually run the country they occupy. The Iraqis and their government run that country.
Nazi Germany occupied most of Europe during WWII. That is a true occupier.
I think the Iraqi people thought they had a fair and honest election. Remember all the smiles and purple fingers and all the Iraqi people who braved threats and dangers to vote?
We do not deny people their right to their natural resources. That is the BIG LIE told by leftist, liberals, progressives, or whatever they want to be called.
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 9:10 am
I’m not going to say Gen. Smedley’s book isn’t worth reading or say he doesn’t have a point. War typically should be a last resort, however Gen. Smedley Butler was a jaded individual and had an ax to grind, and because of that, you have to take his word with a grain of salt.
OldLefty Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 9:17 am
“Gen. Smedley Butler was a jaded individual and had an ax to grind, and because of that, you have to take his word with a grain of salt.”
……………………..
This is true, but you put it beside Dwight D Eisenhower’s warning to “guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex”, and many of the outcomes, and the many modern retired generals who comment on TV WHILE work for the defense industry, and you take the word of those who profit the most with an even smaller grain of salt.
TDro319 Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
“We do not deny people their right to their natural resources. That is the BIG LIE told by leftist, liberals, progressives, or whatever they want to be called.”
That sounds almost word for word what the apostle Rush said a few years ago. How ironic.
karthiks030977 Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 9:23 am
Very well worded,OldLefty.
karthiks030977 Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 9:26 am
“We do not deny people their right to their natural resources. That is the BIG LIE told by leftist, liberals, progressives, or whatever they want to be called.”
Thats a LIE told to you, or worse,by you.
Halliburton gets the oil contracts at prices we dont know about.Probably robbing them blind.
So the American GOVERNMENT doesnt get it, American corporations do…bottom line, you are openly stealing their natural resources: You arent exporting democracy, you’re stealing oil.
Daddio Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 9:33 am
You guys said all that about the Gulf War. Never happened.
So I am now stealing the natural resources of Iraq. Heck, I have never been over there. We don’t want to export democracy. We don’t have a democracy here. We don’t want a democracy. It won’t work. We are a representative republic. The best system ever devised by mankind.
Why do you think America and our way of life is so bad so evil?
OldLefty Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 9:48 am
Daddio,
What does American citizens holding their elected officials to account, and their extreme actions with some skepticism when required “thinking America and our way of life is so bad so evil?”
It seems to me that blindly following and believing everything you are told is “thinking America and our way of life is so bad so evil”
Sounds like what the good Germans said.
***********************
karthiks030977,
Thank you.
Daddio Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 10:03 am
Well Lefty, I never said holding our government officials accountable is bad or evil.
What I am saying is that there is a whole bunch of people, mostly liberals, who instantly blame America and American business for every woe out there in the world. In fact America and American business is the reason that so many more people in the world are rising above the poverty level in their countries. They are not the reason for the evil in the world. Neither is America.
America is the greatest force for good and freedom the world has ever seen.
And Karthik, are you a isolationalist? The world is a complicated place and government throughout American history has as you say “poked” it’s nose in places that it sometimes shouldn’t have. But for the most part we, America, have been that force for good. I’d venture to say that almost every country in the world have benefited from American ideas, business, and most noticeably aid.
OldLefty Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 10:30 am
Daddio,
You confuse blaming bad policy with blaming America.
Conservatives don’t consider blaming the policies of Democrats “blaming America”, they seem to only hide behind that shield when fingers point at Republicans.
In some cases, people have risen above poverty because of American businesses, in many cases, because of it.
America COULD BE the greatest force for good and freedom the world has ever seen if it’s citizens pay attention and do not cave into the temptation to narcissistically sit back and accept flattery over critical thinking while it all slips away.
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
July 1st, 2009 at 2:27 am
it’s not stealing if you are paying for it…and oil exporting countries like selling oil…they fund their government with it.
June 30th, 2009 at 7:08 am
is there a reason why people constantly misspell huge as hugh…
Daddio Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 8:42 am
I don’t know why Guido. Hee, hee. I stand corrected. :) Thanks Guido.
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 9:00 am
I didn’t really mean to call you out, and you’re not the only one. I see it fairly often..and I just can’t figure out why that is a common misspelling or typing error.
Daddio Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 9:12 am
Still Guido, it did bring it to my attention and for that I thank you.
I think sometime our thoughts get so far ahead of our fingers that we don’t notice some obvious errors. Just my theory.
June 30th, 2009 at 8:38 am
“Why do you think America and our way of life is so bad so evil?”
I love the American way of life, within America.
Its when America starts poking her nose into other’s business, and worse with malicious intent,posing to be well intended that I get all pukey.
June 30th, 2009 at 9:51 am
““Why do you think America and our way of life is so bad so evil?””
Further,I love your style of argument.
Instead of addressing my claim that Halliburton is stealing Iraqi resources and USA is facilitating it, you make it about “the entire USA package”….
If you’re telling me “the US way of life has a lot of good”, I’ll agree. If you’re telling me that justifies enabling some American corporations robbing Iraqis and pretending no such thing is happening,I’ll step off the bus there.
June 30th, 2009 at 9:53 am
“What does American citizens holding their elected officials to account, and their extreme actions with some skepticism when required”
That’s exactly what I’ve been asking for, too.No response from Jared,Kregg,Blissful,Daddido, and the numerous others I hope to get an answer from on this topic.
What does it take for you to hold accountable those you AGREE WITH in Philosophy?How do you ensure they dont tell you 1 thing and do something else?(Am asking these because am aware BO has been doing a fair few things that fall in this category, and it doesnt escape his “performance evaluation” in my book keeping).
June 30th, 2009 at 9:58 am
Daddido:
“And Karthik, are you a isolationalist? ”
“What I am saying is that there is a whole bunch of people, mostly liberals”
Two things:
1.Can you try make your point without labeling people as this or that? Perhaps you’d be able to see how much weight your argument truly has, withour relying on giving attributes to your debating opponent that he may disagree with, and consequently only serve the purpose of changing the topic of discussion.
2.”and government throughout American history has as you say “poked” it’s nose in places that it sometimes shouldn’t have”
You didnt and wont hear me complain about USA invading Iraq in 1991, or Afghanistan in 2002, or joining WWII.
So USA entered some well judged wars, and by inference, the judgement of those in power couldnt have been wrong…like, in Vietnam/Iraq, the examples I was refering to? Further, because your political establishment was right on certain war-time decisions, do you give up your right to hold them accountable to decisions in that sphere?
June 30th, 2009 at 10:26 am
“People are going to hate America if for no other reason than our standard of living. Why do you think they adore Obama in Europe? They see Obama taking America down the road to socialism and that socialism will degrade our standard of living.”
Wow, that argument’s so lame it’s ancient.
Daddio Reply:
June 30th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
OH YEAH!!! :)
June 30th, 2009 at 11:08 am