Responses to this post...

1. I think the challenges in a second stimulus package will be to clearly differentiate it as stimulus spending versus pork-barrel spending which was a major point of attack on the first one.

   If a bill can be written in this manner then it definately has a chance and should sufficiently deflect the predictable right-wing fearmongering about ‘debt for our children’ etc etc

   Personally, although I feel it would be ‘possible’ to spend money to efficiently stimulate the economy, I’m quite pessimistic that due to politics this just wouldn’t work.

   Although I’m still in favor of the original stimulus bill and am prepared to wait a reasonable amount of time for its effects, I believe one mistake that was made may have been too many small-scale projects versus fewer large-scale projects.

   I think this is one reason why tax-cuts are often very helpful is because they are national in impact. Similarly, on the spending side, I’d like to see more national (or at least statewide) projects and fewer small-scale stuff like museums and zoo’s which don’t have much synergy with the overall economy.

   

   trees are people too Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

   I think the challenges in a second stimulus package will be to clearly differentiate it as stimulus spending versus pork-barrel spending which was a major point of attack on the first one.

   That’s one of the funniest things I’ve heard lately.

   That’s the cool new word (stimulus spending) that Democrat’s have coined to allow them to do one thing while claiming to be doing something else…….

   Hey Lee, here’s a brilliant idea…..

   Let’s initiate another “stimulus spending package” by giving everyone “free” health care.

   

   Lee Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 5:03 am

   Trees, sadly you sum up the attitude of many such conservatives that economic theory is a ‘joke’ and apart from completely mischaracterizing the stimulus, they then if offering constructive feedback at all, offer terrible solutions like letting the economy world implode and ’see what happens as the great pumpkin.. I mean ‘free market’ magically fixes everything.

   Hey, Maybe we should put a bunch of Christian pastors as economic advisors instead, right?

   As for ‘free’ healthcare, there is no such thing. But I’ll happily enjoy talking about universal healthcare if you have something to say..

   

   GuidoVanHorn Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 5:26 am

   Lee,

   allowing outdated and poorly run companies to die is better for the economy than subsidizing their bloated enterprise with billions of dollars…then letting it fail, as we did with GM.

   Have you ever gardened? what happens if you don’t thin out your seedlings? the seedlings grow and overcompete with each other and you get poor yields. If you have three cucumber plant close by each other, it’s best to cut one back, you will get more out of the 2 than you would have gotten from the 3, and better quality. If you carefully prune a cherry tree it will give you great production for up to 70 years…if you neglect to prune it back it will be hit and miss at the best and can go through years of no productivity, and eventually be useless (other than to cut it down and make pretty furniture out of it)

   The same is true with most industries. The open market is our pruning device.

   Everyone is afraid (repub and dems) of the let it figure itself out method, but all our tinkering is what brought us to the precipice in the first place, by not allowing it to bottom, we’ve simply made a false bottom, and next time it falls it will crash through that bottom on it’s way to where it was going anyway.

   

   Lee Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 5:51 am

   Guido,

   The problem here comes down to scale. Investment banks were not poorly run, on the contrary they knew the concept of moral hazard and played it well, to be incredibly greedy, knowing that if the worst happened the government wouldn’t be able to let them fail.
   In the case of the banks it would be like stating, “let us just let all the plankton die in the sea and let all the species that rely on it ‘naturally adjust’ “.
   That is the kind of model that applies here as the damage from letting it fail was less than socializing the losses and bringing it back to good health. The latter is an important point, namely that the bank/companies we save have to be salvagable and have a sustainable business model (which the banks/AIG did).

   So again, we weren’t talking about your small garden model, unfortunately we were dealing with problems on a much larger scale that the free market could not have fixed.

   Now the Car companies are different to the banks. I have a lot less support for government intervention here than I do for the banking system. I think its insane to give the UAW control of a car company as its a blatant conflict of interest and recipe for disaster. The US car companies were in trouble because of horribly outdated and uncompetitive business models which I’m unconvinced are solved (not to mention a drastic lack of vision).
   In short, when it comes to GM and Chrysler, I would be much more ok with letting them die/evolving naturally. Although I would have enormous sympathy for the workers and the people who depend on those companies so I can understand why the government has tried to make a special case here.

   

   Lee Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 5:57 am

   Argh,

   I just wrote a reply but it got eaten somehow afer submission..

   Basically, I think its not a small garden model but more like an ocean and contemplating letting all the plankton die. That is, its on a scale that natural free market forces could not smooth over/naturally replace as in a normal situation.

   Secondly, car companies are different to banks in my opinion. I’m not comfortable with the way GM in particular has been bailed out when fundamentally it has an uncompetitive and unsustainable business model and as a whole lacks in vision/innovation. The act of giving so much control/ownership to the UAW was insane as there is an obvious conflict of interest which is terminal in my opinion.
   So on the Car companies, I’m not so vocally in favor even though I do understand the level of peoples jobs (and livelihoods) that the government was trying to save.

   

   GuidoVanHorn Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 6:29 am

   did you conjure the evil spirit of V!incent Foster?

   I hate when I have really long and inspired rants get deleted like that.

   I understand that it’s not an easy choice to gamble on allowing industries to fail for their own benefit, but it needs to be done at some point. We will eventually get to a point where we can no longer bail out, and when that happens we will sink.

   I wrote last week that 1/2 of what FDR was great (in my estimation) part of that 1/2 was creating a system to control and back up the financial system in case of failure FDIC, in order to soften the blow. I also said 1/4 of what he did was retarded. part of that 1/4 was to create and give power to agencies that try to micromanage money supply, since it is politics and these agencies answer to politicians the system is wrought with over managing and avoiding bad news at all costs. If under normalized market conditions companies failed and the fittest survived we’d have good strong companies, however by micromanaging for continuous good reports we’ve created a bunch of mediocre to bad companies reliant on the government to be their benefactor.

   

   GuidoVanHorn Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 6:40 am

   it’s also important to note that we haven’t “lost” any money…all the same money was still there. What we’ve lost is the ability to increase our resources into something bigger (credit as part of that)

   When Lehman Brothers failed we didn’t lose money in our money supply…we lost a bloated company that didn’t follow good business practice…and someone else ended up with their money.

   

   trees are people too Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 5:53 pm

   Trees, sadly you sum up the attitude of many such conservatives that economic theory is a ‘joke’

   No, I don’t think I have.

   The joke is thinking that the government can spend money and “stimulate” the economy.

   If you want to “spend” to stimulate the economy the tried and proven way is through the cutting of taxes. Money that is “cut” from taxes is considered “spent” because it’s something the government had planned to “use” that is no longer there.

   Private industry then “spends” this “tax” savings on expanding and developing their businesses in ways that they determine will grow their “investment”….. Businesses typically want to expand and grow larger not save and sit tight, saving and sitting tight is what consumers with trouble earning a living do.

   Anybody with any sense knows that government is the least equipped entity to be making business investment decisions, government decisions are not decided on sound fiscal policy but instead on calculated efforts to win votes and this is appealing to public perception, not a business based reality.

   Think of the Fannie/Freddy debacle.

   The unemployment rate is steadily rising, and inflation and interest rates are too……..

   All we need now is the long gas lines at the fuel pump, I have faith however, Obama is just getting started………….

   Welcome to the seventies my friend, maybe we’ll get some cool “new” shows like Sanford and son, or Chico and the man, or welcome back Kotter to watch.

   Hmm…..actually, those will probably be this years “new” movies.

   

   trees are people too Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 6:09 pm

   government decisions are not decided on sound fiscal policy but instead on calculated efforts to win votes and this is done by appealing to the public perception, not on a business based reality.

   Remember that enormous “stimulus package” that had to be rushed and approved without anyone looking to “see” what was in it?

   “We have to save the economy!!!” “We don’t have time to read and debate this!!!”

   That’s what happens when politicians get involved in the process.

   You don’t think the next “stimulus package” will be “pork” filled as well?

   Posted by Lee
   July 6th, 2009 at 12:45 am

2. “Can this be sold to America?”

   Sure, just decide what you want people to believe, then come up with a cute phrase to promote it, like “drill here, drill now.” Don’t worry if it’s a meaningless bumper sticker. This is a country in which nearly half the people think Sarah Palin would be a good choice for president. That places the average intellect down in the sixties and the typical emotional IQ at something around the age of seven.

   Throw in a few biblical quotations and you’re home free.

   

   RDM Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 10:52 am

   ” Can this be sold to American”

   Yes, and intellect won’t have anything to do with it. Our New government can pitch whatever, and shove whatever, down our throats.

   The taxpayers have had little or no effect on TARP, Stimulus, Omnibus, Cap & Trade, GM, Bank bailouts, or up-coming Health Care and Imigration. The Senate and House are laughable. Why bother reading bills you’re voting for?

   Can Republicans stop Democrats from going through with their agenda-No. So I have to agree with Rocky.

   Unless we can throw the bums out!

   average james Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 11:13 am

   It’s the biblical quotations that would sell it to………..nah, nothing this administration could do will be ok with the conservative right.

   Let’s do it anyway.

   Posted by Rocky the Liberal Rottweiler
   July 6th, 2009 at 2:08 am

3. Paul Krugmans plan is to push off the inevitable for another 10 years…and then we’ll have a real (and bigger) crisis.

   EricG Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 6:42 pm

   Are you an insider? Because you talk like you have all the answers … you talk like … Rush Limbaugh.

   You know I have a crystal ball, too!

   And mine says the next election is do or die for Republicans and conservatives in the USA.

   Win or go home. Yup, ya’ll be cooked! HA!

   

   GuidoVanHorn Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 2:27 am

   that’s funny coming from you EricG…I give my opinion and that is all.

   Nearly every single post from you is a worded as a definitive declaration…yet you have no information except what you make up in your own mind.

   —

   now my opinion our monetary policy for that last 60 years has been to tinker with money supply to avoid a recession, however most of the time we overeact to minor fluctuations…think of the economy as a balloon..if you keep pumping air into the balloon it will eventually pop, sometimes you have to let some air out, our reaction though is everytime we lose 3 cc’s of air we pump in 10 cc’s to cover the difference.

   Now that’s not a perfect analogy, but markets will always fluctuate, and sometimes you have to let them in order to keep the balloon in good shape.

   Posted by GuidoVanHorn
   July 6th, 2009 at 2:32 am

4. Let’s do it.

   

   RDM Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 11:47 am

   Average “Let’s do it any way” James,

   So you’re for another Stimulus Round? Why-because you can?

   You would think a Californian would be cautious on over spending?

   

   blissfulconservative Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 11:52 am

   Dear LORD. The same people who want to WASTE money we don’t have on a stimulus that won’t work are probably the same people who say “yeah, my credit cards are maxed out but the way to fix the problem is to charge another 10 grand on them and BORROW The money to pay it off even though I KNOW I can’t pay back the money I borrow”.

   INSANITY

   EricG Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 6:43 pm

   You say it’s a waste of money. I say we wasted money setting up that nation in Iraq.

   I say spending money on American interests is what we should do and not spending money on wars and military projects.

   But then again I’m a liberal. I don’t demand that someone be killed with my taxpayer dollars, unlike conservatives.

   average james Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

   Yep,

   Let’s do another stimulus.

   By the way,
   I have no credit card, not for 8yrs now, nor do I want one.
   I drive a ‘90 Honda civic, and a ‘77 Datsun pickup for hauling.
   I rent.
   I have no debt to speak of.
   I garden. I recycle.
   I try to put my money where my mouth is. I live pretty darn green and stay out of debt.
   I say let’s do it, yah.
   If it will help others and get the economy moving in a positive direction, I’m all for it.

   

   Kregg Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

   James, how will ypu pay for such a stimulus?

   average james Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 1:10 pm

   It’s not a zero sum game.—Rush Limbaugh
   Deficits are not a big deal.—Rush Limbaugh

   With this last crash, where did all the ‘wealth lost’ go ?
   Did it simply evaporate ?
   I believe that the answer is that it never really was.
   We are not on a standard and consequently,……well, who really knows ?

   

   RDM Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 1:56 pm

   AJ,

   I hunt and fish, drive a 77 Ford Bronco, and consider myself self- reliant.

   We have some similarites, just not political.

   Some people don’t take a side. They just blow with the wind and take what comes.

   I am part of the 3% the government should leave alone.

   average james Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 2:05 pm

   Viva la similarities RDM,

   I like your style.

   Gotta run out for a while. Seeya.

   

   Lee Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

   “The same people who want to WASTE money we don’t have on a stimulus that won’t work are probably the same people who say “yeah, my credit cards are maxed out but the way to fix the problem is to charge another 10 grand on them and BORROW The money to pay it off even though I KNOW I can’t pay back the money I borrow”.”

   The big problem I have with this attitude is that if a tax-cut had been proposed with around the same cost (and especially if it was weighted towards the higher tax brackets) then I have no doubt the same people would be lauding the administration for a great move to ’stimulate’ the economy (e.g no-one talks about the trillion dollar cost of the Bush tax-cuts..).

   There you have an example of right-wing hypocrisy. Not to mention the laughable way judgement is passed on both the President and his policies, after just a few months of office. These same critics then chide liberals and Iraq war opponents over passing judgement too swiftly, 6 years after ‘mission accomplished’ was declared.

   Partisan hypocrisy at its best..

   

   Kregg Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

   Lee said: The big problem I have with this attitude is that if a tax-cut had been proposed with around the same cost (and especially if it was weighted towards the higher tax brackets) then I have no doubt the same people would be lauding the administration for a great move to ’stimulate’ the economy (e.g no-one talks about the trillion dollar cost of the Bush tax-cuts..).

   K: Lee, tax cuts leave money in the hands of the private sector where it stimulates the economy daily. The “rich” stimulate the economy every day with money they have earned by performing a valued service or product IN that economy. Very few private uses of money fail to directly stimulate the economy…

   

   Lee Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

   No, tax cuts, particularly when directed to the rich, get a diluted effect on the economy due to much of it going into savings/investments of which only a proportion trickles down into more credit/investment that stimulate the economy (the rest is just used to build reserves).

   On the other hand, spending always goes directly into the economy and cannot do anything but stimulate jobs/sales. The only question is how efficiently it does it.

   There is a reason that almost every single industrialized country affected by the global downturn has enacted a stimulus package centered around government spending. This reason is not that the world is full of governments with incompetent economic advisors..

   

   Kregg Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 1:23 pm

   Lee said: No, tax cuts, particularly when directed to the rich, get a diluted effect on the economy due to much of it going into savings/investments of which only a proportion trickles down into more credit/investment that stimulate the economy (the rest is just used to build reserves).

   K: And, what do you think is done with savings, Lee? Unless they are put under a mattress or buried in a field they go RIGHT BACK INTO THE ECONOMY in the form of loans and investments which does WHAT? Stimulate the economy.

   L: On the other hand, spending always goes directly into the economy and cannot do anything but stimulate jobs/sales. The only question is how efficiently it does it.

   K: When the govt directs where the money is to go it will be an utter failure – as shown by our present ’stimulus’. 2,000,000 lost their jobs in the last few weeks – now THATS efficiency! ;-)

   L: There is a reason that almost every single industrialized country affected by the global downturn has enacted a stimulus package centered around government spending. This reason is not that the world is full of governments with incompetent economic advisors..

   K: If govt would quit interfering by social engineering in the credit markets we wouldn’t be in this problem.

   

   blissfulconservative Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 2:00 pm

   Hey Lee…what a novel idea. Let people KEEP more of THEIR money so they actually have more money to spend/invest.

   Go figure.

   But hey, don’t let the fact that the more you make the more you pay get in the way of your class warfare.

   There is a reason that other industrialized nations affected by the sick economy are calling for tax CUTS, not tax hikes. It’s called common sense.

   

   Lee Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 5:31 am

   “K: And, what do you think is done with savings, Lee? Unless they are put under a mattress or buried in a field they go RIGHT BACK INTO THE ECONOMY in the form of loans and investments which does WHAT? Stimulate the economy.
   ”

   Kregg, you aren’t paying attention. In order to loan, banks will only loan a certain proportion of their assets. So if you give a dollar to a bank, right now in this economy, the chances are that only a proportion of that dollar are going to go back into the economy in the form of a loan. The rest will go into building up their ’savings’.

   We’re in a vicious circle where in order to unfreeze the lending, you have to make the economy itself stronger. There are only two ways to do that.. one is from direct spending from the government. The second is from spending due to more available income (i.e tax cuts) but the latter relies on people spending not saving and so isn’t the best way to do it.
   However, I believe around 30% of the stimulus is in the form of tax breaks so this is hardly being ignored either.

   “K: When the govt directs where the money is to go it will be an utter failure – as shown by our present ’stimulus’. 2,000,000 lost their jobs in the last few weeks – now THATS efficiency! ;-)”

   This is just a form of the tired, completely flawed, partisan rhetoric that not only ignores the form of the stimulus (instead painting it as 100% socialistic ’spending’) but also ignores or grossly mischaracterizes both the objectives and the timelines over which the effects were projected.
   If you want to continue loudly declare it a failure after a few months. Good for you.
   I certainly have my concerns, not least that there were too many small scale projects and a lack of the ‘grand’ vision we need to create large-scale projects to affect a large-scale problem. But I’m going to wait considerably longer (and compare the results to the CBO projections etc) before I declare ‘mission not accomplished’. But thats just me as a silly, patient, liberal.

   “K: If govt would quit interfering by social engineering in the credit markets we wouldn’t be in this problem”

   Wonderful.. The CRA of nearly 30 years ago is actually the real cause of the problem. Thanks, that makes so much sense. Nothing to do with greed on the lending side.. nothing..

   

   Kregg Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 12:37 pm

   Lee said: Kregg, you aren’t paying attention. In order to loan, banks will only loan a certain proportion of their assets. So if you give a dollar to a bank, right now in this economy, the chances are that only a proportion of that dollar are going to go back into the economy in the form of a loan. The rest will go into building up their ’savings’.

   K: And, Lee, just where do those ’savings’ go? Into the market in some form or another, or did you think they hold all those dollars in a large vault?

   L: We’re in a vicious circle where in order to unfreeze the lending, you have to make the economy itself stronger. There are only two ways to do that.. one is from direct spending from the government. The second is from spending due to more available income (i.e tax cuts) but the latter relies on people spending not saving and so isn’t the best way to do it.
   However, I believe around 30% of the stimulus is in the form of tax breaks so this is hardly being ignored either.

   K: In order to unfreeze lending you have to relax the reserves a bank must hold. The govt has the power to do this. Govt spending takes people’s money and spends it where the GOVT wants it spent – NOT the people who they took the money from. Govt spending does not stimulate all parts of the economy – only those parts which the govt chooses to spend money on. Even if people saved the money given back to them it would stimulate the economy as banks put that money out to loan.

   L: This is just a form of the tired, completely flawed, partisan rhetoric that not only ignores the form of the stimulus (instead painting it as 100% socialistic ’spending’) but also ignores or grossly mischaracterizes both the objectives and the timelines over which the effects were projected.

   K: yada yada yada… Truth is truth even when it is inconvenient for your ideology, Lee.

   L: If you want to continue loudly declare it a failure after a few months. Good for you.

   K: Dude, its YOUR people that are admitting its been a failure.

   L: I certainly have my concerns, not least that there were too many small scale projects and a lack of the ‘grand’ vision we need to create large-scale projects to affect a large-scale problem. But I’m going to wait considerably longer (and compare the results to the CBO projections etc) before I declare ‘mission not accomplished’. But thats just me as a silly, patient, liberal.

   K: Since when is ’stimulating the economy’ a vehicle for ‘grand vision’? The two are completely different things. And, with this statement you prove your ideological bias on a subject that cannot/should not be ideological.

   “K prv: If govt would quit interfering by social engineering in the credit markets we wouldn’t be in this problem”

   L: Wonderful.. The CRA of nearly 30 years ago is actually the real cause of the problem. Thanks, that makes so much sense. Nothing to do with greed on the lending side.. nothing..

   K: Easy money leads to greed. Stupid govt agreeing to buy banks’ bad debt leads to risk-free greed. Freddie/Fannie are bad-debt whores servicing the greed of bankers who have figured out that stupid social engineers rarely consider the unintended consequences of their feel-good policies….

   Posted by average james
   July 6th, 2009 at 10:24 am

5. hmmm…if Krugman was advising Obama’s economic team (he was)…and the economic team was way off base in their initial estimates of the economy…why in the world would Krugman’s advice be entertained?

   average james Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 10:47 am

   I think that each and every one of the financial gurus and advisors from both parties should be ignored. Who saw this coming ? Who saw the depth of it ? Bunch a maroons.
   Jared, if the standard is perfection, absolutely 0% make the grade. Sounds like just more NO from the conservative right.

   

   JaredfromTexas Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 12:40 pm

   AVERAGE JAMES,

   I don’t expect perfection…but I DO expect the “best and brightest” economists to formulate a recovery plan based on an accurate assessment of the current economy. They didn’t…and we’ve continued to slide…

   It isn’t ” just more NO” from the right (left-wing soundbite alert!)…it’s a “what the hell?” from the American people. We were all sold on the stimulus because the “unemployment would not get above 8%”. Now, look where we’re at.

   And don’t give me the “It’s only been 120 days” crap…that’s a cop-out and has nothing to do with Obama’s promise and is small consolation to the 2 million Americans who have lost their jobs since the stimulus passed.

   average james Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 1:05 pm

   “just more NO”—-it’s no soundbite, it’s what the conservative right has to offer. Reality check Jared.
   How about we tell the 2 million americans that have lost their jobs in the last 120 days that we do nothing. The answer is do nothing. And you wonder why the label of ‘NO’ is following you guys around.
   Nobody can see the future, nobody.
   Let’s try this second stimulus and see if it works.
   Oh, and don’t give me this phony “my children and grandchildren” concern. It’s really quite unbelievable in light of the opposition to alternative/sustainable/clean/climate friendly long term energy goals. Goals that can help ensure a better future for our posterity, one in which water is drinkable and air is breathable.

   

   Kregg Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 1:16 pm

   James said: How about we tell the 2 million americans that have lost their jobs in the last 120 days that we do nothing. The answer is do nothing.

   K: The answer is NOT ‘do nothing’ it is DO WHAT IS KNOWN TO WORK. Building decades long infrastructure projects does NOTHING to stimulate the economy NOW. How many of those 2,000,000 who lost their jobs work in the industries that will build these projects? Even if they do, can they wait years to be put back to work? Oops, the answer is NO. ;-)

   J: Nobody can see the future, nobody.

   K: But, the economy is predictable. Govt social engineering and meddling got us INto this mess, what makes us think that govt social engineering and meddling will get us out? The CITIZENS of this country create the economy – NOT the govt. Fix what the govt broke (credit markets) and let us get on with life.

   J: Let’s try this second stimulus and see if it works.

   K: De-horning cows to end the egg strike doesn’t work. What makes you think de-horning MORE cows will put the chickens back to work?

   

   JaredfromTexas Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 1:17 pm

   AVERAGE JAMES,

   Weak…real weak…

   I expect better from you. The “conservative right” offered plenty of inputs to the economic problem…all of which were resoundingly denounced as “the same old policies”…let me ask you, JAMES…what’s “the same old policies” of exntending unemployment benefits?…or lowering taxes on small business?…or tax breaks for low-income families?

   The conservative right didn’t want to “do nothing”…that’s a blatant misrepresentation pushed by the left…and you fell for it. Do your homework and get back to me.

   How about we finish spending the first stimulus before pushing another one? Hmmm?

   It’s really quite unbelievable in light of the opposition to alternative/sustainable/clean/climate friendly long term energy goals.

   Really? opposition to alternative energy sources? What? like, nuclear energy? and long-term energy goals…at the cost of a huge energy cost increase for every family in america, during a recession…makes a whole lotta sense doesn’t it?

   average james Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 1:29 pm

   Nuclear ??
   What is the facination with the right and dirty, dangerous energy sources ? Nuclear, oil, coal craziness.

   Nuclear is so plagued with long term potential catastrophic damage that to me it is unreal that anyone would even consider it. Democrats included. France included.

   Huge energy cost increases ? There you go again with the doom and gloom.

   

   JaredfromTexas Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 1:35 pm

   AVERAGE JAMES,

   nuclear is clean burning…it’s the waste that’s “dirty and dangerous”…however, the storage/disposal of nuclear waste has made HUGE strides over the last decade. It lasts forever, is relatively cheap to produce and doesn’t deplete natural resources. Sounds pretty viable to me!

   Peter Orzag (Obama’s own deputy budget director) is quoted as saying the annual energy cost per household could reach up to 3X the initial estimate of $1200.

   Who’s dooming and glooming?…just reporting what Obama’s administration is saying.

   average james Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 2:15 pm

   “It lasts forever” you mean the waste ?
   Anyway, the more I learn about it the less I like it. Aparently they’re gonna do what they’re gonna do. Like I say, Democrats included.
   Most of what the current admin. has done I have approved of, that is my stance.
   Gotta run bro, hate to hit and run but I gotta.

   

   JaredfromTexas Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 4:52 pm

   AVERAGE JAMES,

   Here’s some basic facts:

   The fission of an atom of uranium produces 10 million times the energy produced by the combustion of an atom of carbon from coal.

   One ton of uranium produces more energy than is produced by several million tons of coal or several million barrels of oil

   Nuclear energy has virtually no greenhouse gases emission and therefore isn’t warming the planet and causing global warming like some other energy sources

   Nuclear waste is classified as either low-level (10-50 year half-life) or high-level (up to 10,000 years half-life). Low-level waste can be stored and released in a relative short amount of time…whereas high-level waste can be (and is) treated and recycled, where approx. 97% of the radioactive material is recaptured and re-used. The other 3% is stored…as solid material, not liquid…in a very safe and stable, land-based rock formation.

   I’m a fan (if you couldn’t tell)…

   Rocky the Liberal Rottweiler Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 5:01 pm

   We’ve already got the only nuclear plant we need.

   It’s called “the sun.”

   

   Kregg Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 5:03 pm

   Rocky said: We’ve already got the only nuclear plant we need. It’s called “the sun.”

   K: Then I propose that, as your civic duty, you eschew all other forms of power generation from this date forward.

   

   JaredfromTexas Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 5:04 pm

   If only we could harness the energy of the sun with a better effenciency than about 15%…

   EricG Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 6:50 pm

   The right interjected NO NEW IDEAS, Jared. And if you were following this issue you would know that. They proposed cutting corporate taxes, cutting taxes, cutting taxes and finally getting rid of regulations. Well, maybe your blind and deaf but we have been doing that for the past years and we just had a recession while following that economic model.

   So you’re saying that when your party was in control and in power that they still do not hold responsibility for the actions they took?

   This is offensive to people who care about their country. We have to do better than this. We cannot sell out our children so the millionaires of today can keep their yachts.

   And all Republican policy is going to do is ‘trickle-down’ another recession and eventually a depression.

   –

   As to a second stimulus. First we get the money back from the first stimulus (Bush) that disappeared. All of it. I want it all counted and displayed for the public record. Then we take that ‘lost’ money and add it to the next round of stimulus and lastly make a new little law that makes it illegal by decade in jail (or something nasty) to run off with taxpayer money in a time of fiscal crisis.

   Listening to conservatives we would all be sleeping in boxes and eating rats for dinner.

   Listening to liberals we get something done and (I’ll admit) there is a lack of willingness to bring it all out into the light of day and the light of the law.

   

   GuidoVanHorn Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 3:22 am

   Average James…not saying nuclear waste is the greatest thing since sliced bread…but it’s danger has been shouted at hysterical levels for the past 30 years. It’s simply not as dangerous as you think it is. (that being said, it is very dangerous) but we have the technology, ability, will, and facilities to safely take care of radiation.

   with our current abilites we cannot produce enough electricity from the sun/wind/tidal/wave/geothermal/hydro to meet our needs that’s a simple fact. The dirtiest and radioactive form of energy we know of (coal) produces over 20% of all our energy needs…We’d have to increase our use of solar and wind 100 times over to cover the difference, on the other hand we can shut down a coal plant with a nuclear plant.

   most of our reactors only use about 1% of the energy available (yet still kick the crap out of most energy forms as cost per kilowatt) Newer nuclear technologies allow us to unlock well over 90% of the available energy from uranium (fast breeder reactors) this also almost entirely burns out high level radioactive materials, which is our real problem with nuclear waste, we have the abilty to take care of low level nuclear waste, it’s the high level stuff that’s problematic.

   We could build one fast breeder reactor, and shut down a couple of coal plants.

   If we really want to talk about safety, just look at the numbers. 50 people have died worldwide due to major nuclear accidents in the last 30 years, that many people die a month in china due to the coal industry.

   I urge you to reconsider your stance on Nuclear.

   I’m not sure how accurate this is, but I just read that a pound of uranium (because of it’s density a pound of uranium is the size of golf ball) can produce the same amount of energy as a million gallons of gas.

   

   JaredfromTexas Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

   little ERIC,

   And if you were following this issue you would know that.

   This is rich..YOU trying to lecture ME on the facts…look it up, little one…look up the injects from the Republican side with regard to the stimulus and how to jump start the economy…and get back to me. Make sure your mommy knows you’re going to get on the internet, though.

   So you’re saying that when your party was in control and in power that they still do not hold responsibility for the actions they took?

   So, YOU’RE saying that when the Dems voted in favor of all the bills that passed over the last 8 years, “they still do not hold responsibility for the actions they took?”

   

   GuidoVanHorn Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 3:27 am

   also, energy payback for Solar is estimated at about 4 years and up to 20 years for some types of PV cells.

   that means the energy produced by the PV cell takes 4 years to equal the amount of energy it took to create the PV cell.

   One nuclear facility creates enough energy to power up to something like 650,000 homes on a continuous basis.

   Posted by JaredfromTexas
   July 6th, 2009 at 10:35 am

6. If your not ever going to pay back a credit card, then run it to the max.

   EricG Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 6:51 pm

   That’s the Republican spending model right there.

   Posted by hhhhhah
   July 6th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

7. Alan the Economist says: The problem, instead, is that the hole the stimulus needs to fill is much bigger than predicted. That — coupled with the fact that yes, stimulus takes time to work — is the reason for a second round, ASAP.

   K: No, the problem is two part: 1. the money was targeted to the wrong sectors of the economy, and 2. The FIRST batch of money hasn’t even been distributed yet.

   K: The economy works by cycling and recycling money THROUGHOUT the private sector so that goods and services can be created – and paid for. Putting billions into pork barrel construction projects that will take years – and in some cases decades – to complete does NOTHING to get cash into the hands of consumers and producers. FIX LONG TERM CREDIT! THAT WILL FIX SHORT TERM CREDIT. When our credit markets are again functioning in a prudent manner people will begin to use credit to remodel their homes, purchase cars, etc… THAT will put people back to work and resolve the issues with our economy.

   EricG Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 7:00 pm

   Kregg the Wannabe-Economist says:

   “The economy works by cycling and recycling money THROUGHOUT the private sector so that goods and services can be created”

   Bounce me on your knee, daddy! I didn’t know all these wonders of the world!

   “pork barrel construction projects”

   Newsflash: it’s always ‘pork’ if a Dem does it for a Repub and vice versa. It’s a stupid phrase and if you think the money was wasted make your case rather than play political games with us.

   “THAT will put people back to work and resolve the issues with our economy.”

   Your a conservative. We have been listening to your logic for decades and we got a recession for our trouble. You’re done, buddy. No more Kreg-o-nomics.

   Bye, bye.

   We put people to work by actually making room for competition and by propping up the small timers.

   Only conservatives could twist this all into blaming everyone but themselves for where we are today.

   Next your going to blame Clinton, right?

   Your partisan colors are showing. People shouldn’t trust your ideology to do anything but fail and leave us broken. And slowly, people are getting it.

   You need to tear down everyone, me – Alan – Krugman, because if we say anything intelligent then people will connect the dots that the conservative economic policy was to get the rich richer and the poor poorer and an attempt to destroy the middle class by the corporate elites. Which precludes your assessment of the fiscal situation.

   We lost the first bunch of money, it’s gone. And the ’sectors’ it needed to be targeted to were the states and state-programs and not so heavily into teh banking sector. So we might agree on that much but the bottom line is you work to tear down all liberal voice if they speak about money … and the fact is that the conservatives don’t know diddly about money and if they did they would have never been so closely involved in the recession.

   

   Kregg Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 10:57 pm

   Kregg the Wannabe-Economist says:

   “The economy works by cycling and recycling money THROUGHOUT the private sector so that goods and services can be created”

   Bounce me on your knee, daddy! I didn’t know all these wonders of the world!

   K: Eric, my monthly American Express bill is more than you claim to have earned in an entire year. Maybe, just maybe, I know a little of what I’m talking about on this.

   “pork barrel construction projects”

   E: Newsflash: it’s always ‘pork’ if a Dem does it for a Repub and vice versa. It’s a stupid phrase and if you think the money was wasted make your case rather than play political games with us.

   K: Nope, there’s Republican pork too. It’s not a stupid phrase at all to anyone wise enough to understand it. Apparently you don’t.

   K prv: “THAT will put people back to work and resolve the issues with our economy.”

   E: Your a conservative. We have been listening to your logic for decades and we got a recession for our trouble. You’re done, buddy. No more Kreg-o-nomics.

   K: If you’d actually been listening for the last two decades you’d of noted that we experienced fabulous economic growth by following conservative republican principles. You and BO want to rob the candy jar for political purposes and, in the doing, risk ruining this country.

   E: Bye, bye.

   K: I plan on retiring soon. Its you that will have to pick up the tab, Eric. Hope you’ve been saving up.

   E: We put people to work by actually making room for competition and by propping up the small timers.

   K: Efficient businesses don’t need ‘propping up’. You simply advocate subsidizing businesses that can’t compete, which is one of the worst forms of govt social engineering.

   E: Only conservatives could twist this all into blaming everyone but themselves for where we are today. Next your going to blame Clinton, right?

   K; Any and all who were involved in the Fannie/Freddie mess are to blame and both repubs and dems were involved.

   E: Your partisan colors are showing. People shouldn’t trust your ideology to do anything but fail and leave us broken. And slowly, people are getting it.

   K: Welcome to ‘change you can believe in…’ Eric, where your boys will devolve the US back to the stone age.

   E: You need to tear down everyone, me – Alan – Krugman, because if we say anything intelligent then people will connect the dots that the conservative economic policy was to get the rich richer and the poor poorer and an attempt to destroy the middle class by the corporate elites. Which precludes your assessment of the fiscal situation.

   K: I’m still waiting for you to SAY something intelligent on this topic, Eric.

   E: We lost the first bunch of money, it’s gone. And the ’sectors’ it needed to be targeted to were the states and state-programs and not so heavily into teh banking sector. So we might agree on that much but the bottom line is you work to tear down all liberal voice if they speak about money … and the fact is that the conservatives don’t know diddly about money and if they did they would have never been so closely involved in the recession.

   K: Hey, your idiots were in charge of ‘the first bunch of money’! You expect me to believe such a bunch can be trusted to know how to spend the second?

   

   EricG Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 12:22 am

   “Eric, my monthly American Express bill is more than you claim to have earned in an entire year. Maybe, just maybe, I know a little of what I’m talking about on this.”

   I call class warfare on that. You want me to explain how greed is the source of all corruption or can we agree that rich versus poor / poor versus rich is not good for America?

   I’m part of the Service Sector, or was. In a fair world, people like you would kiss my butt. Running your storefront while you fly off to Argentina…

   Perhaps I wasn’t clear. Talking down to others earns you no credits in my book. Treating anyone, me or anyone, makes me think you’re just so arrogant that your beyond jaded in your thinking.

   “You simply advocate subsidizing businesses that can’t compete,”

   Right wingers on this site have become experts at putting words in my mouth.

   That’s not what I said. That’s this anti-liberal Glenn Beck BS to cover up all facts.

   If a business can’t compete, it will fail. It’s the ones that succeed that shouldn’t be gobbled up the corporate chains that hold monopolies over American industries and squelch all competition.

   “Nope, there’s Republican pork too. It’s not a stupid phrase at all to anyone wise enough to understand it. Apparently you don’t.”

   I know that. Would you please try not to tear everyone down every two seconds? It’s tiring and pointless. Wasteful spending, don’t give a damn which party does it.

   “experienced fabulous economic growth by following conservative republican principles”

   Until we had this recent deregulation-bubble thing … sometimes I really wonder if there are conservatives who can show respect to anyone but their own kind. I didn’t say that the policies never worked or never showed results, I said we have seen the end result of letting the market run wild and letting the Republicans run the show. We get this, right here. If you want to deny it you do it disservice to your country in doing so.

   “I plan on retiring soon. Its you that will have to pick up the tab, Eric. Hope you’ve been saving up.”

   Trust me, whatever I do you’ll be unhappy. And that’s great your choosing to retire. I plan to work until the day I die or the day they kick me out.

   “Any and all who were involved in the Fannie/Freddie mess are to blame and both repubs and dems were involved.”

   I never said the innocence was be found in the Democratic Camp. I think Frank should be held accountable, the conservatives must have loved when i said he should resign on my blog. But I also think Sanford should resign and that Sara Palin should have filled out term.

   Find me a conservative who talks about Frank all day who is actually willing to take on their own party.

   Time and time again I am given evidence for my theories that conservatives are not being straight and not being honest.

   “Hey, your idiots were in charge of ‘the first bunch of money’! You expect me to believe such a bunch can be trusted to know how to spend the second?”

   TARP was done by Obama all of a sudden. That’s interesting how you turned the world upside down.

   I was vague when I said that, I apologize.

   ‘First bunch of money’ was referring the Stimulus Check (remember that?) + the TARP. I find the “TARP” name somewhat ironic in that they cannot locate a large amount of the money thus a large black ‘tarp’ has been thrown over the public trust tied up in the initial banking bailout.

   “I’m still waiting for you to SAY something intelligent on this topic, Eric.”

   (see above)

   

   Kregg Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 1:10 am

   The Eric said: I call class warfare on that. You want me to explain how greed is the source of all corruption or can we agree that rich versus poor / poor versus rich is not good for America?

   K: I was making the point that I’ve been around a while and just may know a thing or two about economics that you don’t. I’ve seen nothing to suggest my opinion on this point is wrong. But let me be clear; you preach that which you know not – your economic position is convincing proof of that. I”m not denigrating your position at all – just the fact that you think me unqualified on a topic I’ve spent a college education and 35 years business experience on.

   E: I’m part of the Service Sector, or was. In a fair world, people like you would kiss my butt. Running your storefront while you fly off to Argentina…

   K: Unfortunately the world is pretty fair – and ruthless. If you were a failure in the service sector then try another sector but do not blame your position in life on me – or anyone like me. You are responsible for you.

   E: Perhaps I wasn’t clear. Talking down to others earns you no credits in my book. Treating anyone, me or anyone, makes me think you’re just so arrogant that your beyond jaded in your thinking.

   K: Perhaps I wasn’t clear. I wasn’t talking down to you. I was demonstrating – perhaps in too subtle a way – that your arrogant attitude, brought out in your previous post, was inappropriate as shown by your own earning power. I was simply treating you as you did me. Hows it feel?

   K prv: “You simply advocate subsidizing businesses that can’t compete,”

   E: Right wingers on this site have become experts at putting words in my mouth. That’s not what I said. That’s this anti-liberal Glenn Beck BS to cover up all facts.

   K: If you understood what you said – its what you said.

   E: If a business can’t compete, it will fail. It’s the ones that succeed that shouldn’t be gobbled up the corporate chains that hold monopolies over American industries and squelch all competition.

   K: So, you agree that General Motors should have been allowed to fail. Thank you for your agreement. It couldn’t compete – and it was failing until BO (with our money) propped it up. Point 2: Most business in this nation is conducted by small business.

   K prv: “Nope, there’s Republican pork too. It’s not a stupid phrase at all to anyone wise enough to understand it. Apparently you don’t.”

   E: I know that. Would you please try not to tear everyone down every two seconds? It’s tiring and pointless. Wasteful spending, don’t give a damn which party does it.

   K: Eric, seriously, do you remember what you say from post to post? My response was perfectly plausible, given your prior statement.

   “experienced fabulous economic growth by following conservative republican principles”

   E: Until we had this recent deregulation-bubble thing … sometimes I really wonder if there are conservatives who can show respect to anyone but their own kind. I didn’t say that the policies never worked or never showed results, I said we have seen the end result of letting the market run wild and letting the Republicans run the show. We get this, right here. If you want to deny it you do it disservice to your country in doing so.

   K: Eric, we had a credit market screw up. Our govt had been meddling in the credit markets for years forcing banks to extend loans to people who could not otherwise afford them. Banks caught on that they could sell their risky loans to Fannie/Freddie – so they did. So much bad paper rattled the credit markets and caused a tightening in both short and long term credit. Now, all of the business conducted on short term credit has slowed down as fewer borrowers qualify for short term loans. When the tools of business shut down business shuts down. When business shuts down people lose jobs.

   K prv: “I plan on retiring soon. Its you that will have to pick up the tab, Eric. Hope you’ve been saving up.”

   E: Trust me, whatever I do you’ll be unhappy. And that’s great your choosing to retire. I plan to work until the day I die or the day they kick me out.

   K: No, there are things you could do that would make me happy…

   K prv: “Any and all who were involved in the Fannie/Freddie mess are to blame and both repubs and dems were involved.”

   E: I never said the innocence was be found in the Democratic Camp. I think Frank should be held accountable, the conservatives must have loved when i said he should resign on my blog. But I also think Sanford should resign and that Sara Palin should have filled out term.

   K: I”m sure conservatives from coast to coast were jumping for joy over your blog post.

   E: Find me a conservative who talks about Frank all day who is actually willing to take on their own party.

   E: Time and time again I am given evidence for my theories that conservatives are not being straight and not being honest.

   K: Who gives you this evidence?

   K prv: “Hey, your idiots were in charge of ‘the first bunch of money’! You expect me to believe such a bunch can be trusted to know how to spend the second?”

   E: TARP was done by Obama all of a sudden. That’s interesting how you turned the world upside down. I was vague when I said that, I apologize.

   E: ‘First bunch of money’ was referring the Stimulus Check (remember that?) + the TARP. I find the “TARP” name somewhat ironic in that they cannot locate a large amount of the money thus a large black ‘tarp’ has been thrown over the public trust tied up in the initial banking bailout.

   K: You just said something intelligent on this topic…

   

   EricG Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 3:36 am

   “Our govt had been meddling in the credit markets for years forcing banks to extend loans to people who could not otherwise afford them”

   Such an amazing singular view of the economic crisis. Now I see why we disagree about the whole ball of wax instead of some minor thing. You want to blame the government for the whole thing, as if the government wrote the bad paper.

   “Who gives you this evidence?”

   The right wingers of America. Actions speak louder than words.

   “So much bad paper rattled the credit markets and caused a tightening in both short and long term credit. Now, all of the business conducted on short term credit has slowed down as fewer borrowers qualify for short term loans”

   So I’m not ten years old, just so you know.

   I’ve asked everyone and no one has an answer:

   How did we get in a position where this this much bad paper (toxic assets) was allowed to move through the market to have such a profound and systemic effect on the global economy?

   I’m no conspiracy nut. I think it literally comes to the bare and complete arrogance of the exact the style you are giving me in defending that conservatives did not contribute and reside over this entire past recession.

   Greenspan is not a liberal.

   “I”m sure conservatives from coast to coast were jumping for joy over your blog post.”

   Oh I don’t get that many visitors. I just use it as practice for my own writing and occasionally people eat it up, usually not.

   Astrology .. that and calling people names … that’s what my public wants …

   What ya gonna do?? I don’t care for Blog-Slander all that much (maybe a little) and I don’t know anything about signs or that stuff I know about ancient mythology and idol-worship and polytheism in the course of researching a novel …

   i could a do a post about MONSTERS and try and relate to the stars…

   —

   I think my point is that I don’t get paid so it’s just a mish-mash. Someone like Alan you know what you’re getting and just some dude has a blog it could be rambling, or it could be a collegiate level essay in introspective political analysis or taking a crack at student-journalism … but damn does that take TIME!

   i got stuff to do.

   Posted by Kregg
   July 6th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

8. Yeah what does Krugman know? He’s just a Nobel-prize winning economist with professorships at Princeton and the London School of Economics. But he’s got a dumb name and he criticises Bush all the time, so obviously he’s a jerk.

   I mean, if I go to a 7-11 to get a Bud Tall Boy, and I’m one cent short, I can’t get a Bud, right?

   Duh!

   

   blissfulconservative Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

   If you go to the 7-11 and want to purchase 20 dollars worth of anything and you have squat do you get the stuff or do they re-stock?

   

   Kregg Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

   If you’re on welfare you get the stuff. If you work for a living you go home empty handed… ;-)

   

   blissfulconservative Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 1:38 pm

   LOL. True, true.

   

   EricG Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 12:27 am

   Can’t buy booze with food stamps, Kregg. Only food. Things like medicine.

   Too bad you don’t love the poor like Jesus told us to. It’s a real shame you wear so many coats.

   

   EricG Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 12:28 am

   squeeze through the eye of a needle … squeeze

   

   Kregg Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 2:59 am

   The Eric said: Too bad you don’t love the poor like Jesus told us to. It’s a real shame you wear so many coats.

   K: What makes you think I don’t love the poor, Eric?

   

   EricG Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 3:19 am

   Kregg: “If you’re on welfare you get the stuff. If you work for a living you go home empty handed”

   This sounds a little like you got something against people on welfare. I don’t know anyone on welfare who is rich. Usually if you are eluding to the ‘welfare queen’ mantra, to me, it equates to hate for the impoverished.

   People who work for a living have the means to fend for themselves. Those living without much means deserve our respect and our help, from state means and individuals the same.

   Perhaps I’m mistaken.

   

   GuidoVanHorn Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 3:31 am

   Perhaps I’m mistaken.

   —

   can you make that your new tagline?

   

   Kregg Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

   Eric said: This sounds a little like you got something against people on welfare. I don’t know anyone on welfare who is rich. Usually if you are eluding to the ‘welfare queen’ mantra, to me, it equates to hate for the impoverished.

   K: Yes, I DO have ’something against’ people that live on welfare out of laziness. I have NOTHING against people on welfare that are incapacitated in such a way that they cannot work. I’ve had employees quit their full time job with me to return to living on welfare because it pays better.

   E: People who work for a living have the means to fend for themselves. Those living without much means deserve our respect and our help, from state means and individuals the same.

   K: Agreed.

   E: Perhaps I’m mistaken.

   K: Quit leaping to conclusions. Try asking what my stance on a subject is without presuming it.

   

   JaredfromTexas Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

   ROCKY ,

   Yeah, a noble prize winning economist who just screwed up the Obama assessment of the economy…I hope he puts that on his resume.

   average james Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 12:05 pm

   Perfection as a standard.

   It would be nightmarish to work for you Jared.

   

   JaredfromTexas Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 1:38 pm

   AVERAGE JAMES,

   Take it and spin away, my friend…but you do yourself a disservice by putting words in my mouth…makes you look foolish.

   Where did I say perfection is the standard? Hmm?

   average james Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 1:57 pm

   Jared,

   I stand corrected. Perfection is incorrect, you did not say that.

   I would argue for more leniancy in the trying to figure the best course out of this recession.
   After all, not all recessions are the same, nor are the cures.

   Posted by Rocky the Liberal Rottweiler
   July 6th, 2009 at 12:51 pm

9. The smartest, most qualified people on the planet do not know in any exact way how to cure our economic problems. They’re resorting to trial and error. But if you guys think you have all the answers, because it’s all so obvious, based on armchair economics, you go right ahead with all the blather.

   

   JaredfromTexas Reply:
   July 6th, 2009 at 5:11 pm

   ROCKY,

   Unbelievable…These guys have built their reputations and lives on studying economic principles, etc.

   To say the gov’t is basing their decisions on “trial and error” is just mind-boggling. this country has a very long history of getting out of recessions…we’ve had good and bad actions.

   It would seem to me that the “best and brightest” would use these as basis for their advice instead of “resorting to trial and error.”

   average james Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 11:48 am

   I just can’t let it slide on by Jared,

   “To say that gov’t is basing their……..good and bad actions.”

   This country has had a long history of recessions and getting through recessions indeed.
   Is every recession the same ? Perhaps some mistakes have been made from time to time. Perhaps a little trial and error ? From the best and the brightest ? Federalists, Whigs, Democrats, Republicans, etc.?
   Is it fear of a different approach that raises your hackles Jared ? Trying something new can be frightening. Conservatism, by it’s very nature, is attempting to conserve/preserve the status quo, to hold to the old ways, to not change.

   

   JaredfromTexas Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 1:37 pm

   AVERAGE JAMES,

   I didn’t imply that all recessions are the same…and thus…not all cures for recession are the same.

   All I’m saying is that we should use history as a teaching tool instead of resorting to “trial and error”.

   Is it fear of a different approach that raises your hackles Jared ?

   Is it your fear of learning from the past that allows you to turn a blind eye to what’s going on? By the way…FDR tried to spend his way out of the depression…how’s that work out for us?

   Conservatism, by it’s very nature, is attempting to conserve/preserve the status quo, to hold to the old ways, to not change.

   That could possibly be the most disingenuous, and uninformed statement you have ever made. Congratulations on crossing into the land of make-believe…

   average james Reply:
   July 7th, 2009 at 1:45 pm

   Jared,

   Agreed that all recessions are not the same, nor the cures.
   Trial and error is how it works, taking into account lessons of the past surely.

   As a matter of fact FDR did spend us out of a depression.

   I stand by my (incomplete) definition of conservatism.

   Posted by Rocky the Liberal Rottweiler
   July 6th, 2009 at 5:05 pm

10. Krugman’s remarks are nothing new. He said he thought we’d need another stimulus when the first one was just finished.

    

    Kregg Reply:
    July 6th, 2009 at 10:32 pm

    Except ‘the first one’ isn’t yet finished…

    Posted by crh3e
    July 6th, 2009 at 6:35 pm

11. Jared Et Al.
    Got a busy day at work.Got time just to mention this:
    1.A tax cut without accompanied spending reduction of PREEXISTING items(this does NOT refer to the NEW items,which are ANYWAY cut out) is NOT a tax cut.
    2.If you propose a tax cut, propose the exact spending cuts to bring the deficit back to the prior proposed amount. Otherwise, you’re diluting the currency, and NONE of your measures are accurate.To make “all other things constant”, the deficit must be the same as before your tax cut.
    The reason why I agree with all those who say “More of Do Nothing” is, the Tax Cutters DONT have the &^%$ to actually lay out line item by line item, the budget items to CUT out to balance the tax cut exactly.Thats cowardly passing on the buck to someone else(by route of currency dilution).
    Have a nice day.

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 10:38 am

    KARTHIK,

    Which is better then? Raising taxes during a recession, and not cutting spending

    Or lowering taxes during a recession, and not cutting spending?

    Because Obama’s administration has passed the largest budget in US history…and has imposed the largest commodity tax in recent history…and has proposed additional taxes…and all while increasing spending.

    Oh, I forgot the 100 Million he’s told his staffers to cut out of the budget…a whole .05%.

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 11:26 am

    “Which is better then? Raising taxes during a recession, and not cutting spending

    Or lowering taxes during a recession, and not cutting spending?
    ”
    Both are bad.Both will worsen the economic crisis.There will be no appreciable difference in the rate of the downward spiral between the above two. THAT is the point you need to understand.
    The reason why 2. is bad, is it has only inflationary effect, because of what I already wrote.
    The reason why 1. is bad is,government spending is always inefficient and therefore almost never yields ROI.
    I will NOT make a relative assessment between the devil and the deep sea. There is a way out,support it, or play these childish games of “which is worse,the devil or the deep sea”.

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 11:31 am

    There is also a philosophical reason why I oppose:

    “Or lowering taxes during a recession, and not cutting spending?”

    Someone gives me an IOU for 10 ounces of Gold.He has 10 ounces of Gold.Tomorrow,he writes an IOU to someone else for 10 ounces of Gold, and doesnt have the Gold to back us both up.
    My IOU is now effectively worth 5 ounces of Gold, because if we claim our Gold, thats what we can claim, between me and the other IOU holder.

    Thats exactly the situation with currency. Philosophically, you are defrauding someone who already holds the currency,by printing more. That should be illegal.But the person who holds the keys to the currency printer is the only one who can make that law. No wonder its not illegal.

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 11:32 am

    KARTHIK,

    play these childish games of “which is worse,the devil or the deep sea”.

    Wait…my asking your opinion on a subject equates to “childish”?

    YOU implied the “tax cutters” (which was a thinly veiled dig at conservatives) don’t have the cojones to go line-by-line with the budget and cut spending…but you fail to mention the Democrats aren’t doing the same thing…even though their united campaign promises

    The proverbial “pot calling the kettle black”.

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 11:37 am

    “but you fail to mention the Democrats aren’t doing the same thing…even though their united campaign promises
    The proverbial “pot calling the kettle black”.”

    Lot of assumptions.
    I support Obama on some issues. From that to me supporting Democrats,especially on their spending plans?Didnt you read my previous postings?
    I support neither plan.
    The plan I support is one that illegalizes printing unbacked currency by government(or anyone).The government must OWN assets on its balance sheets to pay off the currency released into the market. Unless the government creates value,it cannot print currency.
    Fix that,the economy will fix itself.

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 11:46 am

    KARTHIK,

    Lot of assumptions.

    Not ONE single assumption in my post…care to read it again?

    I stated fact…you did not mention Dems weren’t cutting costs…period. Where’s the assumption?

    I didn’t assume, either, that you supported one plan over the other. That one’s on you.

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 11:48 am

    “I stated fact…you did not mention Dems weren’t cutting costs…period. Where’s the assumption?”

    When I say one is the devil and the other the deep sea, what do you think I mean?Got some difficulty in parsing English?

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    KARTHIK,

    Got some difficulty in parsing English?

    Not near as much difficulty as you seem to have writing it.

    Once again…catch up, litte one…I didn’t make a comment on your devil/deep see analogy.

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 11:40 am

    “YOU implied the “tax cutters” (which was a thinly veiled dig at conservatives) don’t have the cojones to go line-by-line with the budget and cut spending…”

    There was nothing thinly veiled.
    Tax cut is the easy part. The hard part is to cut the expenses down to balance the budget.Wave your hand,sign a pen, cut taxes,let the economy inflate prices. That has been the plan of the tax cutters. When they come up with a real plan, which cuts expenses back to bring the budget deficit (if any)back where it was,I will support that.

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    KARTHIK,

    Yes, the hard part is cutting spending…which is why you SHOULD have been all-inclusive with your angst instead of directing it entirely at Republicans.

    partisan…pure and simple…

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 11:57 am

    “Yes, the hard part is cutting spending…which is why you SHOULD have been all-inclusive with your angst instead of directing it entirely at Republicans. ”

    For 8 years, the Republicans have been cutting taxes without cutting spending. That is why the deficit is at this level.
    The Dems didnt cooperate to cut spending,sure.But IT IS HIGHLY IRRESPONSIBLE AND FRAUDULENT TO CUT TAXES WITHOUT PASSING BUDGET CUTS.

    And NOBODY held them(Repubs) accountable for THAT Irresponsibility.
    Nobody FAILED to hold Dems accountable(NOT me for sure) for NOT cooperating with spending cuts KNOWING taxes are getting cut.

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    TO put it in simple,layman terms.

    The tax cuts of G W Bush are MYTHICAL. They are NOT real.They cut tax rates on certain slabs.That gave more currency to the people who EARNED that currency. Government employees continued to make currency claims to the same tune. So the Government printed/released new currency.More people with currency,same goods and services,prices just adjusted upwards.The dollar now is worth less than the dollar was worth before the tax cuts. That reduction in worth is masked to a large extent by the huge dollar reserves in other countries. When they knock on your door and claim the Gold for the dollar notes they hold, you will see the REAL problem. WHat you see now is merely the tip of the Iceberg.

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    KARTHIK,

    For 8 years, the Republicans have been cutting taxes without cutting spending. That is why the deficit is at this level.

    And exactly why Obama’s deficit is expected to be in the TRILLIONS

    But IT IS HIGHLY IRRESPONSIBLE AND FRAUDULENT TO CUT TAXES WITHOUT PASSING BUDGET CUTS.

    Which is exactly what Obama’s administration is guilty of, thusfar.

    And NOBODY held them(Repubs) accountable for THAT Irresponsibility.

    And NOBODY seems to want to hold the current admin accountable for the same…

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 1:13 pm

    “Which is exactly what Obama’s administration is guilty of, thusfar.
    And NOBODY seems to want to hold the current admin accountable for the same…”

    I really dont care who does this.
    All I care about is : cutting taxes MUST be accompanied by spending cuts.

    If you can get your head out of “Repubs vs Dems” analyses, and come up with a plan that cuts taxes and cuts spending(with the line items that get cut),lets talk. Otherwise,quit waffling and wasting my time.

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 1:32 pm

    I really dont care who does this

    If you don’t care who’s guilty of not cutting spending…then stop identifying the Republicans…how ’bout that?

    If you can get your head out of “Repubs vs Dems” analyses

    YOU are the one that brought up the Repub/Dem debate when you identified the Republicans were propogating the “tax cuts” without “spending cuts” plan.

    I merely took your asinine debate points one step further to include Dems. Who’s waffling here? Oh, yeah…it’s you.

    Stop being a baby…you brought up the topic…if you don’t want a debate…don’t post circular, asinine and incorrect points. Simple as that.

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 1:45 pm

    “If you don’t care who’s guilty of not cutting spending…then stop identifying the Republicans…how ’bout that?”

    Silly,childish.I proposed a complete plan. You didnt like it because you were satisfied with the half baked plans of the Repubs, which does only the easy part. Worse, you have problems assigning responsibility to the Republicans for that.

    Mind,I didnt blame THEM OR DEMS. WHO does NOT matter to me. WHAT is done only matters to me.

    “YOU are the one that brought up the Repub/Dem debate when you identified the Republicans were propogating the “tax cuts” without “spending cuts” plan.”

    I did NOT identify Republicans. I identified “Tax Cutters”. Have seen a LOT of people propose tax cuts as the solution(all those people coincidentally happened to be Repubs. All those people coincidentally happened to irresponsibly not come with a plan to cut spending to match the tax cuts).

    I did NOT accuse Repubs of anything. Its their plan thats incomplete,I was merely stating facts.

    Anyway I dont really give a damn; You ought to know after this discussion how incomplete,useless the “Tax Cut and skip the budget balancing” plan is. You can hold your bible with content and erode your dollars(through the Repubs), or hold your bible with discontent, and helplessly watch (Dems) erode your dollars.

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 2:03 pm

    No…what’s childish is saying:

    I did NOT identify Republicans. I identified “Tax Cutters”. or I did NOT accuse Repubs of anything

    and then saying:

    all those people happened to be Repubs

    Try as you might to try to turn this around on me…it’s not going to happen. You dug this hole…now you’re going to have to sit it.

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    “I did NOT identify Republicans. I identified “Tax Cutters”. or I did NOT accuse Repubs of anything

    all those people happened to be Repubs
    ”

    “My primary allegiance is to the philosophies.
    My allegiance to people is limited to my judgement on their commitment to similar philosophies that I give allegiance to.”

    Jared: Can you try parse these 2 together?Perhaps I am talking about philosophies,and NOT people?

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 3:28 pm

    If you weren’t talking about philosophies…then why identify who you believe are the perpetrators of the ineffective policies(your words)?

    Take a minute to get your story straight…and then answer.

    Posted by karthiks030977
    July 7th, 2009 at 7:51 am

12. Guido:
    “of course though the theory is that revenue increases by lowering taxes through increased productivity and ability to spend/lend/borrow because they aren’t hampered by the taxes.”
    That theory is partially correct. What it misses is,if the tax cuts are not balanced by spending cuts,the currency available increase.More currency in the market,same amount of goods and services(ASSUMING Zero Investment,which is a theoretical possibility) leads to just readjustment of prices to a higher level.
    In practice,investment is neither 0% nor 100%(of the tax cut given to tax payers).But, part of it is spending,part is savings/investment.The savings/investment part drives new job creation.
    The spending drives profitability of existing business.
    But to make the case for my argument,just let government print away currency AND cut taxes…prices will just adjust upwards,the dollar just gets devalued.

    To cause a REAL change in the status quo,the government must adjust to the economic situation as the private sector does.Inefficient,unproductive businesses collapse.Ditto for unproductive government expenses,jobs.They must be cut out,otherwise all that happens is more people have currency,with same goods and services, and thats just currency dilution.
    When currency dilution happens, there is v little scope for economic recovery.People receiving the tax cuts KNOW prices will go up.They spend FIRST,rather than invest.This is why I have NOTHING but scorn for the idea of tax cuts without balancing the budget back to where it was.

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 1:54 pm

    “if you don’t want a debate…don’t post circular, asinine and incorrect points. ”
    ROFLMAO.
    Where did you find anything circular,OR incorrect in all of what I said?
    Asinine is a matter of judgement. Trying to teach you economics has turned out to be an asinine decision,so I’ll give you that one.

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 2:07 pm

    here…let me help you out since you’re having a hard time figuring it out on your own…

    “circular” means going in circles…making one statement, then making another than contradicts the previous one. re-read the thread and you’ll find the proof…

    “incorrect” in stating that only Repubs are responsible for propogating the “tax cuts with out spending cuts” myth…you only have to look at the current administration to find that statement is false.

    so, YOUR economics is the correct version? Just like YOUR SND is the correct one? Who the hell are you, again? Nobody? That’s right…

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    “incorrect” in stating that only Repubs are responsible for propogating the “tax cuts with out spending cuts” myth…you only have to look at the current administration to find that statement is false.

    Repubs did it for the last 8 years.They gave the tax cuts in a specific form to a specific population segment.Didnt cut spending.
    Dems contributed to the above,also.
    Now,Dems are giving tax cuts to other segments of the population,and not cutting spending either.

    I didnt ever say Dems are doing anything DIFFERENT now on the economy than Repubs.I dare you to show me that I said otherwise, in this thread.

    “so, YOUR economics is the correct version? Just like YOUR SND is the correct one? Who the hell are you, again? Nobody? That’s right…”

    I pity you. For you to be able to evaluate a philosophy,and critically analyze it,you need it to come from a “somebody” and not a “nobody”?Do you actually have the ability to evaluate a philosophy?I will give you time for that to get your bible.Warning:The philosophy I asked you to evaluate may not be present in your bible,so dont waste your time.

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    Good, finally you acknowledge Dem complicity in the current economic fiasco! Admitting it is the first step toward recovery…

    I didnt ever say Dems are doing anything DIFFERENT

    I never posted that you said Dems were doing anything different…get a grip…once again, read the damm thread before you reply.

    For you to be able to evaluate a philosophy,and critically analyze it,you need it to come from a “somebody” and not a “nobody”?

    Not at all…once again, twisting my comments.
    But if you’re going to blatantly say the policies are wrong…then you’d better damm well be somebody.

    I don’t need a bible to recognize an idiot. This one’s pretty obvious.

    Again. WHO is the better person or agency to run SND besides the Gov’t? Having a hard time with this one?

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 4:01 pm

    “Again. WHO is the better person or agency to run SND besides the Gov’t? Having a hard time with this one?”

    Who’s the better person to judge on what it takes to achieve SND?

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 4:04 pm

    “But if you’re going to blatantly say the policies are wrong…then you’d better damm well be somebody. ”

    So you admit you lack the ability to critically analyze a philosophy?The person is somebody,you buy it.The person isnt somebody,you may choose to not buy it; Bottom line, your brain cant handle what it takes to analyze it…?

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 4:25 pm

    Who’s the better person to judge on what it takes to achieve SND?

    Ah, the old question with a question routine.

    I’m not falling for it.

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 4:31 pm

    So you admit you lack the ability to critically analyze a philosophy?

    uh-uh, buddy…don’t even try. There’s a HUGE difference in having an opinion about something…and quite another to think that YOUR PHILOSOPHY is the the right philosophy.

    …and I’ll thank you for not putting words in my mouth.

    Here’s an example for you…and try to keep up…

    I have an opinion that this administration isn’t holding up their end of the bargain when it comes to unemployment. However, I’ve never said this administration is wrong in their execution of their policies and that they should follow my philosophy.

    You, however, think your “philosophy” is the correct way to do things, while the gov’t’s is the wrong way…there’s a difference here.

    Why do you think you know best, anyway? Because you read it on the internet? Because you’ve researched a couple of articles on it? Because you “feel” it’s wrong? Because it doesn’t fit into your philosophy?

    

    flap Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 5:15 pm

    “Because you “feel” it’s wrong?”

    Jared, be careful, libs tend to thrive on moral relativism. It’s morally wrong because it feels morally wrong.

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 8th, 2009 at 8:07 am

    “Why do you think you know best, anyway? Because you read it on the internet? Because you’ve researched a couple of articles on it? Because you “feel” it’s wrong? Because it doesn’t fit into your philosophy?”

    Is that the most logical rebuttal you can get?

    Flap:I have been asking for a logical rebuttal, and from the beginning,I havent gotten anything other than “who the heck are you?”. Since a plan was proposed to me : “tax cuts ALONE, without an eye on the deficit” as doing the job,with some “reasons why they will work”…

    I analyzed it,and stated why they wont work.

    You tell me “these are the reasons tax cuts without spending cuts will work”…and I am supposed to take it at face value?

    I understand this mode of assessment of “what is good for me”: someone else tells me what’s good for me, and I am supposed to accept it blindly.

    All I asked for was the same critical analysis and a counter if you got one. You dont have a counter, that doesnt prove anything about my theory.
    But atleast you could be honest and admit you accept what someone else tells you is good for you,blindly, and your assessment of “why it is good for me” is just repetition of what they told you.

    “Jared, be careful, libs tend to thrive on moral relativism.”
    Flap:You’re nuts.
    Tell me which “liberal” here advocates spending cuts to balance the budget, and actually ASKS to form a list of line items to cut,to balance the budget?

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 8th, 2009 at 8:15 am

    “uh-uh, buddy…don’t even try. There’s a HUGE difference in having an opinion about something…and quite another to think that YOUR PHILOSOPHY is the the right philosophy. ”

    Jared:My Philosophy may be wrong. However, I havent yet heard a logical rebuttal from you that begins to show why my philosophy could be wrong
    …
    Of course,unless you count “who the heck are you” as logic.

    This Opinion,Philosophy stuff you posted was just crap.IN any case,I’ll clarify.
    When I approach any topic to debate,call it an opinion of mine,or philosophy, I approach it with the attitude “my opinion/philosophy could be wrong”.

    I accept a logical demonstration from someone else as proof that my original position was incorrect; If along the way I discover a logical demonstration by my own thinking,I again accept
    that my original position was incorrect.

    But once more,I ask you: when and why did this become about ME? I asked you about a philosophy, and you’re debating “MY philosophy”?

    Heck,I cant and dont claim I invented these ideas.Do you claim you invented the morals you subscribe to from the bible? These ideas have been floated in the US and the world for quite a while. Except,people who like passing the buck on to someone else…they keep deluding themselves that printing currency+spending more+cutting taxes, will work.

    Posted by karthiks030977
    July 7th, 2009 at 10:01 am

13. I am aware Ron Paul may have similar philosophies,allegedly.I havent done enough of a study of his philosophies, OR formed a judgement on his intent,commitment to those the philosophies I believe in, to claim to be a supporter.

    Short answer is,No(And No does not mean I do NOT support him,or I am against him).I always support policies,I dont support people.

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 1:52 pm

    “I always support policies,I dont support people.”

    Before Mr Jared gets on to this,I’ll clarify.

    My primary allegiance is to the philosophies.
    My allegiance to people is limited to my judgement on their commitment to similar philosophies that I give allegiance to.

    Which is why I support BO on Iraq, because I believe we should never have been there(and I believed that even before we got in), and I believe any day,including today,has been as good a day to get out,for the last 2 years at least).

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    So…you value the lives of people who subscribe to your personal philosophies more than any other…

    interesting…

    

    blissfulconservative Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    Sorry. Butting in. But that is an interesting twist, isn’t it? I think Sadam and other dictators value the lives of people who subscribe to their personal philosophies more than any other.

    Don’t they?

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 2:57 pm

    “So…you value the lives of people who subscribe to your personal philosophies more than any other…”

    Scratching my hair.Where did you get that from?Perplexed.Your mind seems diseased,to take these interpretations from nowhere.

    I support someone=I value their life…?where from this Quantum leap?

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 3:23 pm

    Hmmm…could it be that I used your own tactic on you?

    A couple of posts ago…I stated that I thought the Iranian flight that was shot down by the US Navy was an accident…and you translated that into some off-the-wall assumption that I only value American life…and no other.

    Turned it back on you…it isn’t that much fun when someone twists your comments to fit their argument is it, KARTHIK?

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 3:31 pm

    “I stated that I thought the Iranian flight that was shot down by the US Navy was an accident…and you translated that into some off-the-wall assumption that I only value American life…and no other.”
    Liar.
    I did not translate THAT into that assumption.

    I translated the following:
    1.You voted for representatives who are anti abortion.
    2.You chose to (from what I knew then,I dont know if this is true,your last posts on this topic left me ambiguous) NOT vote against those who sent our soldiers into Iraq,thereby taking several thousands of innocent Iraqi lives.

    

    blissfulconservative Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 3:37 pm

    Once again butting in and I shouldn’t.

    Did Biden vote for the war resolution? Are we still in Iraq and Afghanistan?

    What’s wrong with voting for representatives who value the unborn?

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 3:46 pm

    KARTHIK,

    do you even bother to re-read before posting?

    Wait…I don’t know why I asked that as it’s pretty obvious.

    You chose to (from what I knew then,I dont know if this is true,your last posts on this topic left me ambiguous) NOT vote against those who sent our soldiers into Iraq,thereby taking several thousands of innocent Iraqi lives.

    at which point you decided to bring up the Iranian Airliner accident as evidence that US military men and women are “murderers” (your words) and that I could care less about lives lost other than American lives. (paraphrasing, of course)

    I’ll expect your apology to be forthcoming.

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 4:00 pm

    “You chose to (from what I knew then,I dont know if this is true,your last posts on this topic left me ambiguous) NOT vote against those who sent our soldiers into Iraq,thereby taking several thousands of innocent Iraqi lives.”

    Yes.
    It is the way the status is.
    To date,it is not clear to me if you voted against those representatives who sent out soldiers into Iraq. Lets have your position on that clarified please, then perhaps I’d have been wrong.If you leave it ambiguous,well,I see no reason to believe you value American lives the same as non American lives, because,according to my judgement, you’re covering up your voting record intending to to argue “benefit of doubt”.

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 4:19 pm

    KARTHIK,

    I voted Republican, primarily due to the lack of experience on the Dem ticket.

    However, that, in NO WAY, implies that I value non-American lives any less than American lives. That would be an astounding and WRONG interpretation of my voting record.

    If you press with this ridiculous assertion…then I’ll remind you that if you voted Dem…you’re responsible for sending American Troops to Iraq as well…so, essentially, you value American lives more than others…

    get it?

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 4:29 pm

    If I voted for Obama,I would have voted for someone who did not voted for sending the troops to Iraq.

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 4:34 pm

    but you voted for someone who just opted to keep them in Iraq…despite his campaign promise.

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    “but you voted for someone who just opted to keep

    them in Iraq…despite his campaign promise.”
    Eh?Been reading the news?
    Never mind…I did waste my time.Havent yet heard anything from you against my philosophy,or FOR the Repubs proposals, other than “Hey Who the heck are YOU?”. Is that the best you’ve got?

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 4:57 pm

    are you that full of yourself that you think you deserve my time responding to your claims that your philosophy is the right philosophy and the US Government’s is wrong?

    You still haven’t offered up an explanation of why you think you’re right and the entire US Gov is wrong.

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 4:59 pm

    have YOU been reading the news lately? Although US troops have left some cities in Iraq…that doesn’t mean they’ve left the country.

    Wow…

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 5:05 pm

    “You still haven’t offered up an explanation of why you think you’re right and the entire US Gov is wrong.”

    For the simple reason that I act in my interests,and I expect Gov to act in their interests.
    I expect plans proposed by Politicians to serve their interests.
    Now, if there were 10 political parties, its in the representatives interest to actually do something in my interest.

    If there are 2 viable only, all they need to do is propose any believable blather that will pass by me.If I dont believe it,doesnt matter,but how many believe that blather is all that matters.
    Anyway all that is the game theoretic argument.
    If there’s only 1 viable party,sweet.Dont even need to waste time producing blather.

    The economic argument I have already posted. Tax cuts without spending cuts only leads to inflation and currency devaluation,WHOEEVER receives the tax cuts. Because the individuals receiving the cuts are aware that the net currency inflow has increased in the market, directly(by knowing the govt didnt cut spending) and indirectly(by observation of prices).This knowledge leads them to have a propensity to spend rather than invest.Goods and services produced are the same, the number of employed people has remained the same. All this does is increase inflation.
    For the goods and services to increase,SOME part of the currency MUST go into investment. ONLY that changes the status Quo of goods and services produced, and ONLY that constitutes economic growth.

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 5:14 pm

    KARTHIK,

    Our Gov is elected to act in the best interest of each American. However, your explanation fails to explain why/how you think the Gov philosophy is wrong. Are you saying that every gov policy is wrong…and doesn’t act in your best interest? I find that hard to believe.

    Inflation is the devaluation of the dollar as a result of an increase in the volume of money and devaluation of the currency.

    I think you’re confused here. the “increase in volume” refers to the actual increase in the amount of money into the market…i.e. printing more money. Not the actual introduction of additional money already in circulation into the market.

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 5:19 pm

    “Inflation is the devaluation of the dollar as a result of an increase in the volume of money and devaluation of the currency.

    I think you’re confused here. the “increase in volume” refers to the actual increase in the amount of money into the market…i.e. printing more money. Not the actual introduction of additional money already in circulation into the market.
    ”
    …WHAT do you think is a government deficit?What do you think the government does when there is a deficit?They received X dollars,they spent X+Y dollars,where do you think Y comes from?What is Y?Is it a ghost floating in the air?
    WAKE UP. Your government routinely prints currency all the time(and thereby defrauds prior currency owners),to match the deficit.This has been going on for several decades.

    “Our Gov is elected to act in the best interest of each American. ”
    Are you really that naive?That they WILL act in the best interests of Americans…because…?They’re so moral?

    Posted by karthiks030977
    July 7th, 2009 at 1:48 pm

14. Caution–Don’t tell Obama there’s a bigger number than a trillion.

    I’d take Forest Gump any day.

    average james Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 3:30 pm

    He he he

    You’ve got a sense of humor RDM.

    Posted by RDM
    July 7th, 2009 at 1:52 pm

15. “Good, finally you acknowledge Dem complicity in the current economic fiasco! Admitting it is the first step toward recovery…”

    Wrong.You have summarized your ASININE thinking in one line.

    The first step towards recovery is…STOP DOING THE WRONG THING.
    To do that,you first need to know WHAT is wrong.
    That was the point of my posting the philosophy.
    I already told you many times over:The plans the Repubs propose AND the plans the Dems are going about are both likely to fail miserably. Because neither has an eye on the deficit. Thats my belief,based on the economics I understand. You have a counter argument,lets hear it. I already posted the cases that demolish the arguments for the theory the Repubs proposed. Instead of analyzing the philosophy, you’ve wasted my time, and yours, splitting hairs over WHO is responsible. WHO is responsible is NEVER going to fix the problem.

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 6:01 pm

    “have YOU been reading the news lately? Although US troops have left some cities in Iraq…that doesn’t mean they’ve left the country.

    Wow…”

    Jared:You win,Mr Hair Splitter.Until the last soldier exists,BO cant take credit…happy?How childish.

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 8:15 pm

    KARTHIK,

    No, it isn’t childish.

    What’s childish is claiming a political victory when victory isn’t won. Congratulations…you take that prize.

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 8:19 pm

    KARTHIK,

    The first step towards recovery is…STOP DOING THE WRONG THING.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA…idiot!…how are you going to stop doing the wrong thing without first acknowledging that wrong is being done? HAHAHAHAHA…you take the cake with this garbage!

    To do that,you first need to know WHAT is wrong.

    Confuse yourself a little bit there? Which comes first, then? Admitting something is wrong…or stop doing the wrong thing?

    Maybe you should take a break from talking for a while…it can only help…

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 8:51 pm

    You’re brain dead,sorry to say.
    “Confuse yourself a little bit there? Which comes first, then? Admitting something is wrong…or stop doing the wrong thing? ”

    The only one hung up on admitting things is you.
    I said the Gov needs to stop doing the wrong thing.
    And to do that,they need to first identify WHAT they’re doing wrong.
    What you have the finger on is useless:Tax cuts,who cares about budget balance,blahblah. That is NOT the wrong thing being done.Fixing that is a fatuous waste of time.

    But if you had been trying to have a conversation,and tried to parse what I wrote, you’d have got it. This economics lesson for you was an asinine idea of mine.

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 7th, 2009 at 8:54 pm

    Also note that in all your responses,I havent yet heard a logical counter to my proposals(unless you count “who the heck are you” as logic).

    I havent even heard a rebuttal for my demolition of the Repubs plan(All it does is cause inflation,devalue the dollar).

    Are you giving up on logical rebuttals, and going all personal? The philosophy I proposed is about ME?

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 8th, 2009 at 8:55 am

    KARTHIK,

    Try to keep up…tax cuts do NOT lead to inflation…spending money you don’t have leads to inflation…printing money leads to inflation. Letting people keep more of what they earn does NOT lead to inflation. That’s just plain common sense…something of which you are severely lacking.

    I gave you my philosophy…if you’d choose to read the posts, you’d know that. But here we go again:

    Allowing people to keep more of their money = more spending/investment = more commerce = more business = more tax revenue for the state and fed gov’t = more money in the gov’t coffers. I don’t disagree that this SHOULD be coupled with spending cuts.

    What’s so hard to understand here? Oh, and by the way…since you’re willing to just pin this “philosophy” on just the Repubs…take a look at the current administration and tell me the difference between the republican “philosophy” and the democratic “philosophy”.

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 8th, 2009 at 8:59 am

    KARTHIK,

    Let me do a recap for you, since you’re blatantly unwilling to read what’s in black and white here:

    I said the Gov needs to stop doing the wrong thing.
    And to do that,they need to first identify WHAT they’re doing wrong.

    No, you said the Gov needs to FIRST STIP DOING THE WORNG THING…scroll up a bit if you’d like to see.

    You say I’m “brain dead” for suggesting the gov’t needs to KNOW what’s wrong before they can stop doing wrong.

    Then you say THE FIRST THING to be done is to stop doing the wrong thing.

    Then you say…but first they need to know what’s wrong.

    all of this equals your unbelievable lack of cognitive ability to understand the conversation. Read through it slowly…and get back to me.

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 8th, 2009 at 9:05 am

    “Try to keep up…tax cuts do NOT lead to inflation…spending money you don’t have leads to inflation…printing money leads to inflation. Letting people keep more of what they earn does NOT lead to inflation. That’s just plain common sense…something of which you are severely lacking.”

    And I asked you:
    Government gets money in X dollars(through taxes). It spends X+Y. Where do you think Y comes from?
    I told you already.Everytime your government cuts taxes and does NOT cut spending, it prints currency. That is irresponsible. That does exactly what you said:
    “printing money leads to inflation.”
    This was the point I was trying to make.Tax cuts alone without spending cuts is NOT a tax cut.Its merely fraud.Readjusting the buying power of the dollar is all it is.It leads only to inflation, no economic growth.

    For economic growth to happen, a (significant) segment of currency must go into investment. Investment leads to new jobs,new goods and services,which hopefully are in demand, and are tradeable at the market.

    “Tell me the difference between the republican “philosophy” and the democratic “philosophy”.”

    You’re the only one hung up on “Repubs vs Dems” in this thread. I have said repeatedly, they’re both wrong. And you cottoned on to it, and challenged me to show “they’re both wrong”. I already did. You just didnt come up with a counter YET.
    What the Repubs did,Bush did in 8 years was just readjust the value of the dollar. He did NOT deliver a single tax cut. NEITHER has Obama.

    For a Tax Cut to be a Tax Cut, the Government MUST reduce its spending by at least the amount of the tax cut.

    Posted by karthiks030977
    July 7th, 2009 at 4:11 pm

16. Jared: Try Keep Up:

    “I have an opinion that this administration isn’t holding up their end of the bargain when it comes to unemployment.”

    That is an Opinion. Does it have to remain an opinion forever?NO.To convert it from Opinion to FACT/UNTRUTH, you will need statistical facts.

    ” However, I’ve never said this administration is wrong in their execution of their policies and that they should follow my philosophy.”

    I dont REALLY care what they do,because I believe I am capable enough of surviving whatever s&^* they do with the economy, same way I survived the 8 years of Repub mismanagement, same way many others including you survived.
    Does that change the fact(NOT opinion) that when deficit grows, you and I and everyone (who already held currency) are getting robbed,by way of currency devaluation? No.

    What are you going to do about it?I know…lets identify an enemy and go after them…godless Dems, they must be the problem…not “what we did(or allowed the Representatives(Repubs,Dems included)”.
    Or,Hey,this chap is a nobody proposing something…”lets go after him, and the problem will go away”…
    Fantastic logical rebuttal,Jared…loads of economic arguments in your rebuttals.

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 8th, 2009 at 9:06 am

    KARTHIK,

    You are delusional to the point it’s scary. It’s politics to point the finger at the other side of the aisle…is it the right thing to do? No…but that’s just life. You can whine about it, or you can accept it, or you can vote them out. Which is it do you think the American people will do?

    You’re absolutely entitled to your opinion, buddy…but don’t expect that I’ll just swallow it up and agree…you’d be the poster child for delusion if you think that (which you obviously do).

    I didn’t think I’d have to point out obvious fact regarding my opinion on unemployment…it’s pretty self-evident if you’d choose to look beyond your own little world.

    Fantastic logical rebuttal,Jared…loads of economic arguments in your rebuttals.

    You’re WAY too willing to put words in my mouth…I didn’t imply ANY of what you just posted. You’re a like a spoiled little kid who can’t stand someone disagreeing with him. Grow up.

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 8th, 2009 at 9:36 am

    “You’re WAY too willing to put words in my mouth…I didn’t imply ANY of what you just posted. You’re a like a spoiled little kid who can’t stand someone disagreeing with him. Grow up.”

    And I still havent heard a logical rebuttal.

    1.I told you (my opinion) that tax cuts without spending cuts is not a tax cut,its a fraud, and it comes with currency printing, and just inflationary effect. You havent yet posted a counter to that other than “tax cuts is common sense”….Geez,I didnt think you were that dumb. Do you believe whatever is told to you?

    2.I told you I will support anyone who cuts taxes with spending cuts to the same tune(at least). I havent yet heard you show a preference between these 2 philosophies.

    I have told you my preference: I prefer NEITHER 1.”tax cuts in proportion to how much tax you were paying before, and more spending”(The Repubs plan) NOR
    2.”tax cuts in inverse proportion to how much tax you were paying before, and more spending”(The Dems plan)
    And I prefer
    3.Tax Cuts WITH spending Cuts.
    Note:
    I ALSO do NOT Prefer
    4.Tax Increases with Spending Increases. In fact, this is the one I have max distaste for. For reasons you cant even begin to appreciate,until you actually digest and comprehend the economic arguments and begin to come up with sensible rebuttals that came through your brain cycles(if there’s such a thing), not blind parroting what you heard on Fox News or Rush.I didnt even need to bring up 4. because you couldnt comprehend the 1-2-3 debate. 4. Completes the picture, to demonstrate why solution 3. IS the correct free market solution.

    To summarize:

    1.Solution 1 is fraud
    2.Solution 2 is Fraud
    3.Solution 3 is free market capitalism
    4.Solution 4 is socialism(NOT what YOU have been calling Socialism).

    It seems apparent from your postings that you prefer 1. to 3. No problem, we all have our utility curves….I have utility for logic, you have utility for the bible. We can all go home happy now.

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 8th, 2009 at 9:51 am

    “You’re WAY too willing to put words in my mouth…I didn’t imply ANY of what you just posted. You’re a like a spoiled little kid who can’t stand someone disagreeing with him. Grow up”

    My tone of talk has remained they same.I have kept asking you,to the point of begging, to come up with logical rebuttals/counters. I havent yet heard them, just to state it 1 more time.

    Re: Spoilt little kid etc….am tickled somewhat.
    You’ve been acting like a Kid throughout this thread. Making it personal, taking on the credibility of the person who proposes an idea, who took that approach repeatedly?
    When you said something about the Tax Cut plan, did I attack YOU? I shredded the plan with logical counters.
    Anyway,doesnt matter. Your statements on “disagree with” also tickled me. Seems like you built a base of philosophies based on faith,trust, and cant handle when someone questions or critically analyzes those with logic.That would explain why I havent yet heard a logical counter.

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 8th, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    KARTHIK,

    When you said something about the Tax Cut plan, did I attack YOU? I shredded the plan with logical counters.

    Hmmm…YOU brought up the Tax Cut plan…not me. And no, I guess on the playground, calling someone “childish” isn’t a personal attack…but here in grown-up land, it is.

    You did not “shred” my rebuttals with “logical counters”…you only provided your opinion of what was wrong and how it could be fixed. Nowhere in your statements were references to economists’ works or studies. Meaning, it was all inside your head. Excuse me…but I’ll say this again: you’re a nobody with an opinion. That’s all.

    cant handle when someone questions or critically analyzes those with logic.That would explain why I havent yet heard a logical counter.

    Read the paragraph above this quote for my rebuttal on this one.

    I just can’t for the life of me, understand why your intent on pushing your opinion as “logical counter”. Gimme a break. Give me legitimate economist studies that support your theory and we can talk “logical”. Until then…like I said before…you’re a nobody with an opinion.

    Posted by karthiks030977
    July 8th, 2009 at 8:52 am

17. “Letting people keep more of what they earn does NOT lead to inflation. That’s just plain common sense…something of which you are severely lacking”

    What is lacking here is the 6th sense from you.
    Let me explain,in layman terms.Perhaps you will get that.
    Say I’m a farmer.Grew 10 sacks of grain.Government taxed me 1 sack.
    Government left me hold my remaining 9 sacks with ME.
    Government now went and printed IOU(what you called Currency). The value of my Sacks of Grains actually goes up.
    Instead,Government took ALL 10 sacks of my grain.My tax was the market price of 1 sack of grain.The remaining 9 sacks, Government gave me IOUs(currency) at the market price.
    After doing all this,next day the Government arbitrarily printed more IOUs, and “bought” other things from other people.
    Lots of people with IOUs, you go to the market, you wont get 9 sacks of grain for the IOUs they gave you the day before. They are ALREADY devalued.
    That is why, the tax cut without the spending cut is NOT a tax cut,is just a fraud.
    You’ve been sold a dummy, if you believe that Tax Cuts without spending cuts are sufficient to fuel economic growth.
    In the above situation, If I know my government was going to print currency, I will go to the market and buy whatever I need TODAY, before the price goes up. No problem, goods and services trade hands. But these are NOT new goods and services.
    New goods and services are created when part of the money I had went into investment.That investment leads to a job(typically,even if its self employment), and that leads to a new good/service. That can then be traded at the marketplace, with the IOUs/goods in the market.

    

    blissfulconservative Reply:
    July 8th, 2009 at 9:47 am

    Investors don’t invest when the government is taking more of their money. Companies can NOT create or retain the jobs they already have when the government begins taking MORE of their money.

    Spending money you don’t have and can’t repay, racking up 100 million dollars in interest daily on an omnibus bill that has done CRAP to help the economy is insane.

    When YOU are low on cash is your solution to SPEND more money, or do you save your money for what you really need?

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 8th, 2009 at 9:56 am

    “Companies can NOT create or retain the jobs they already have when the government begins taking MORE of their money”

    Bliss…Agree with every word you said above(But there is some you left unsaid, you can pick it up from my postings).
    However, please note: every word you said above logically leads to plan 3: Gov. Cut Taxes and Spend less.
    Plan 1.(The Repub’s plan)…does NOT have a commitment to address:
    “Spending money you don’t have and can’t repay, racking up 100 million dollars in interest daily on an omnibus bill that has done CRAP to help the economy is insane.”

    If the commitment is there,I’d have been shown a list of line items to cut out.

    To Reword what you said:
    “Letting people keep more dollars is good, and government spending less dollars is good…”…anything wrong in me asking for BOTH simultaneously?I dont accept “Letting people keep more dollars” alone, because the Gov will just print currency if they dont cut their dollar spending . As they’ve been doing.

    Posted by karthiks030977
    July 8th, 2009 at 9:23 am

18. “Companies can NOT create or retain the jobs they already have when the government begins taking MORE of their money.”
    Bliss:
    The point you failed to post in the above is:

    Leaving companies OR people with MORE money does NOT create or retain jobs.
    Leaving people or companies with MORE money WITHOUT devaluing the money you leave them with creates jobs(or an environment to create jobs).

    If I made 100$, and Gov took 35$, and I spent say 55$ (to get what I NEED to get) and saved 10$ for investment…

    If the Gov leaves me with 30$ but then I have to spend 65$ to get the SAME needs, then it leaves me with less money to invest. THAT is a summary of the Repub plan(And the Dem plan: The only difference between the 2 plans is, WHO gets to keep the extra CURRENCY(Not Money)).

    Posted by karthiks030977
    July 8th, 2009 at 10:51 am

19. Jared:
    “I said the Gov needs to stop doing the wrong thing.
    And to do that,they need to first identify WHAT they’re doing wrong.”

    Are we splitting hairs again?If stopping doing the wrong thing was the first step, which step is identification?Can we call it Step 0 and move on to the point under discussion?
    Geez, Trying to discuss Economics with you has been such a waste of my time. All you’re willing to discuss is ME, MY credentials, and Repubs vs Dems.
    Anyway I gotta go to work.See you later(And Bliss).

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 8th, 2009 at 2:33 pm

    KARTHIK,

    You just can’t stand to be proven wrong can you?

    If stopping doing the wrong thing was the first step, which step is identification?

    Ummm…I figured you for smarter than this…but I was way off, apparently.

    The FIRST step is recognition (which is what I said to begin with)
    The SECOND step is to stop the incorrect action (which is what I said to begin with)

    There is no STEP ZERO, little one.

    I pointed out the error in your “logic” and you lambaste me for not understanding. Now you’re saying exactly the same thing I said initially, but now you’re calling it “splitting hairs”.

    All you’re willing to discuss is ME, MY credentials,

    And do you know why? It’s because you’ve introduced your opinion as the “logical” solution to the economic crisis. Everyone else is apparently wrong, except you. That’s why. I’m not buying it for a minute.

    Incredible.

    Posted by karthiks030977
    July 8th, 2009 at 10:58 am

20. “And do you know why? It’s because you’ve introduced your opinion as the “logical” solution to the economic crisis. Everyone else is apparently wrong, except you. That’s why. I’m not buying it for a minute.”

    This is just rewording what we’ve already gone over: You have absolutely no argument; All you’ve got is:”who the heck are you”. No problem…keep getting robbed; It wont matter who you elect, Repubs or Dems; If you will accept a tax cut without spending cuts, you will keep getting robbed. Except, unlike me, you wont realise you’re getting robbed.

    Anyway, just out of curiosity: If “everyone else”(which comes down to your POLITICIANS) is right…why couldnt you borrow some arguments from what they said to rebut my argument which I claimed shredded their theory?
    I asked you to borrow their arguments because if you were capable of shredding my argument which shredded their theory, you may have been able to put it in words by now.Not holding that against you,some people are capable of making logical arguments and some arent.

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 8th, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    To Clarify Further:
    This “Everyone” you talk about includes only your Representatives, Political Class. Lots of people are aware of the arguments I posted; And Lots of people believe they will work(I didnt bring them out of thin air).
    Simple fact is, you dont have any shred of logic to rebut my counter OR to rebut my own argument.
    Other than “who the heck are you”…which I’ve now lost count of how many times you’ve said.

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 8th, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    If so many people agree with you…show me sources, then. show me economic studies.

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 8th, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    sigh…I’ve already provided ample rebuttals. Re-read and you’ll find them.

    Otherwise I’m done with this discussion. Not because I don’t have plenty of fight left in me…but because you’re obviously content with pushing your opinion as the end-all, beat-all solution to the economic issues without listening to opposing arguments.

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 8th, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    “without listening to opposing arguments.”

    What opposing argument? “Who the heck are you” became an opposing argument?

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 8th, 2009 at 2:55 pm

    “I’ve already provided ample rebuttals. Re-read and you’ll find them”
    What rebuttal?
    Tax Cut without spending cuts I said directly leads to just inflation of prices, NO investment, NO economic growth. WHERE did you rebut that?I searched this forum high and dry,dont see any rebuttal.
    Oh wait,I forgot you did say “who the heck are you”…

    Posted by karthiks030977
    July 8th, 2009 at 2:43 pm

21. Jared:
    Read Murray Rothbard.
    Lots of Economists have discussed his theories.
    In case you havent realized, what I posted is by and large his theories.His economic theories arent just theoretical arguments,too.You can read his studies.

    Now I wont wait for the arguments which take on Murray Rothbard’s credentials.If you’re going to attack his credentials, save it.
    You’ve already given sufficient demonstration that If someone proposes a theory, you dont agree with it, and you dont have a counter to it, you will go after their credentials.
    Once you read his theories, lets see IF you have anything to give as a logical counter…
    I expect “Who the heck is Murray Rothbard…” and such stuff, but lets see if you can do better.

    Posted by karthiks030977
    July 8th, 2009 at 2:51 pm

22. So childish you are,man…
    Now I posted a “mass of people” who agree with the views I posted(actually the other way round,I agreed with THEIR views)…
    Are we gonna play “My Mass is bigger than your mass?”.

    At some stage, are you going to post some logical counter argument? (if you REALLY insist,I can include “who the heck are you” as a logical counter argument and we can be done here)

    

    JaredfromTexas Reply:
    July 8th, 2009 at 5:11 pm

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I know Murray Rothbard all too well…A race-baiter?! You’re going to accept the “teachings” of a race-baiter to prove your points? GIMME A BREAK!

    “The Fed is racist!”
    “Government philosophies are racist!”

    I wonder if you actually chose to look up who Murray Rothbard was before you decided to espouse his libertarian views. Oh…my…God! You’re a riot!

    I’ve given rebuttal to your wacko “tax cuts = inflation” argument over and over again…If memory serves, I also had to state “I value all life equally” about 15 times for you to actually read and comprehend what I was saying…this may well be another one of those cases where you just fail to understand what I’m saying.

    So childish you are,man…

    so, your ignorance leads you to name-calling…interesting

    This whole thing is getting to be pythonesque…good luck on your crazy “I know best” scheme…

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 8th, 2009 at 5:18 pm

    “Now I wont wait for the arguments which take on Murray Rothbard’s credentials.If you’re going to attack his credentials, save it.”
    “HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I know Murray Rothbard all too well…A race-baiter?! You’re going to accept the “teachings” of a race-baiter to prove your points? GIMME A BREAK! “

    

    karthiks030977 Reply:
    July 8th, 2009 at 5:32 pm

    “good luck on your crazy “I know best” scheme…

    As Opposed to…Government knows best…hmmm,what did is that form of economic activity known?

    Oh yeah,socialism.

    Posted by karthiks030977
    July 8th, 2009 at 3:16 pm

23. “I’ve given rebuttal to your wacko “tax cuts = inflation” argument over and over again”

    Misquoting me.Not at all surprising.
    I said tax cuts WITHOUT spending cuts to match the reduction in taxes=inflation.
    Further, you did NOT yet address my question directly:

    I stated that tax cuts that are not backed by a spending cut to the same tune as the tax cuts leads directly to inflation ONLY,and to (Near) Zero Growth(Just repeating the above,so you get it). Do you have a logical counter argument to the reasons why I gave ?

    Wait,I just found it in your last post…

    “HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I know Murray Rothbard all too well…A race-baiter?! You’re going to accept the “teachings” of a race-baiter to prove your points? GIMME A BREAK! “

    Posted by karthiks030977
    July 8th, 2009 at 5:21 pm

24. “I wonder if you actually chose to look up who Murray Rothbard was before you decided to espouse his libertarian views. Oh…my…God! You’re a riot!”

    I have read his books. And the economic theories.
    Obviously, I am also aware some of them go against biblical teachings. So,Keep bringing forth more names. Am still awaiting REASON….Just ONE Logical Reason

    Oh wait, you did give several logical reasons…”race baiter” etc etc.

    Posted by karthiks030977
    July 8th, 2009 at 5:25 pm