Obama Is A Right-Winger, If We’re In Norway
Professor George Lakey of Swarthmore examines the Norwegian view of Obama. Norway’s political specrum is different than ours and, let’s face it, we’re further to the right as a country than we often acknowledge.
When Norway hit a major financial crisis in the early ’90s (from a real estate bubble and speculating banks), the Norwegians decided against bail-outs. Three of the biggest banks were simply taken by the government, their senior management fired, their stockholders sent packing. The government nursed the seized banks back to health over time while the economy made a quick recovery. The other troubled banks were left to declare bankruptcy or find new capital. Norway’s action sent a clear message to the banks: mismanagement and greed don’t pay. The result is that today its own financial sector is clean and only needs to deal with the impact of other countries’ disasters. Norway’s strategy was very far from Obama’s bank-friendly game plan.
And when oil was discovered, there was no private ownership. As a result, seacoasts were protected and profits put into a pension fund that shores up Norway’s economy. There is countrywide support for Norway’s single-payer universal health care system across party lines. Lakey sums it up:
By contrast, Obama says he backs the failed U.S. private insurance scheme and his team is wobbling on his own modest proposal to add a public option. So I would have to say to thoughtful Republicans: even if you don’t like the Nordic blend of capitalism and socialism, with its virtual abolition of poverty, free university education, and enlightened environmentalism, you’re only confusing the issue when you try to label the President with the “S”-word. You may think his policies are wrong, but in Norway even conservatives would say the Democrats and Obama don’t go nearly far enough.
Well Alan,
Judging from your average ultra-right-wing caller (the 7th you had a wonderful gentleman educate you on the absolute Truth that the earth was created in six days!), id say it’s a great idea to provide a map!
July 9th, 2009 at 6:44 pm
Alan,
If you wished to tell the whole story, Alan, which it appears you don’t; you’d tell your readers that Norway’s population is 4.8 million compared to America’s 300 million plus. What works in a nation of 5 million does NOT mean it’ll work in a nation of 300 million.
Also, Alan, how do you define the term poverty? I mean is it defined as being at or below 50% of the national average income or what?
jasperjava Reply:
July 9th, 2009 at 10:39 pm
Bernie, that’s the stupidest definition of poverty I’ve ever seen. If “poverty” were simply having a below-average income, then EVERY country would have 50% of its people living under the poverty line. Really. Don’t take my word for it. Do the math.
One indicator of wealth is the GDP per capita. Norway is 7th in the world ($55,200), the US is tenth ($47,000). It’s GINI index, which measures inequality of family income, is one of the lowest in the world.
What radical left-wing source did I get this info from? The CIA World Fact Book.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/NO.html
average james Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 2:42 am
Yah buddy,
Norway kicks ass !!!!
Finally an all Norway post.
Did I mention that I am 5/8s Norwegian ?
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 2:50 am
but can they sustain it? that’s the question.
and it’s funny that this liberal/socialist country engages in international GREED much like the corporations that you all like to disparage.
average james Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 2:55 am
Read more about it Guido. Norway is quite the model country.
The greed you mention, it’s called capitalism.
I would think that you would approve.
average james Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 3:02 am
Sorry for the snark Guido.
I just got in from out of town and am tired.
I could not resist commenting on the Norway piece.
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 3:02 am
sorry I should have written “GREED”
they can’t sustain their spending indefinitely, they are past PEAK oil and they will eventually regress.
So, just so I’m clear, GREED is ok if the country is doing it, but bad when ExxonMobile does it.
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 3:04 am
single commodity based economies all perish by the wayside when they can no longer export their commodity. When oil is no longer needed/or available to them, all of these countries will regress to 3rd world countries.
EricG Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 3:05 am
“and it’s funny that this liberal/socialist country engages in international GREED much like the corporations that you all like to disparage.”
Greed is best defined as consolidation to benefit the one at the cost of the whole.
I don’t see that in this model.
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 3:05 am
and by the way, I’m not bothered by snark..and I’m rarely offended, unless you take it personal…even then I’m pretty tolerable.
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 3:08 am
Greed is best defined as consolidation to benefit the one at the cost of the whole.
I don’t see that in this model.
—
You don’t see how Norway as a country takes the riches from others by selling their oil at the highest price possible.
Norway is even worse because they don’t join OPEC, and simply under sell them by $1 a barrel to attract more buyers.
**note**
I don’t care how Norway conducts business as long as it’s ethical, just the hypocrisy of liberals who don’t see the difference between Norway and ShellBP.
EricG Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 3:21 am
I don’t see the express ‘greed’ in it. Like I said, an individual at the expense of the whole. I’m not saying the Nowegian Model is the way to go. I’m saying it’s this right wing ’screw the poor, it’s my money’ attitude that is true greed.
“I don’t care how Norway conducts business as long as it’s ethical,”
I’d say that’s the problem across the board; business ethics and the complete lack thereof crashing the economy.
The true insult these days is that right wingers show no respect whatsoever by calling all liberals “socialists” when you don’t hear the media accepting the term “fascists” to describe conservatives.
As much as one is true, as is the other.
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 3:23 am
well..Norway is socialist…so I don’t know where that comment came from.
So you think it’s ok for one country to be greedy over other countries, just so long as they are also socialist and not capitalist.
average james Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 11:26 am
Norway is very ’socialist’ in some ways.
Socialism does not equal loss of freedom.
Norway has a very ‘libertarian’ social structure, as do most, economically socialistic nations.
Notice that freedom of speech/expression is not hindered.
Fishing and tourism are very big in Norway.
They are not a single commodity nation.
Oil looms large in the picture, yes, but unlike say…..the arab nations, Norway has more to offer. Kinda like Mexico or Venezuala.
average james Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 11:35 am
Shipbuilding and textiles are big there.
2.6 unemployment rate.
Non-militaristic.
Lots of heavy metal bands.
Rock.
TDro319 Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
“So you think it’s ok for one country to be greedy over other countries, just so long as they are also socialist and not capitalist.”
Sure. I woundn’t mind the U.S. “being greedy” over other countries – as long as the American people benefit from it. As it stands now, the only people who benefit from the greed are the capitalists (and the politicians who they pay off to keep it that way).
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
TDRO
You mean like GM who obama wanted to bail out, now owns, and is now cancelling a deal with an AMERICAN steel company in favor of a RUSSIAN steel company?
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
TDRO and Ericg…you’ve finally proven what I suspected all along. Liberals are just as bad as greedy wall stret brokers…they just disguise it by saying including a seemingly larger tent.
true corporations (i don’t include mainly financial service sector type jobs in this description) do a better job of raising the standard of living than any and all welfare
systems ever created.
Yeah it sucks that CEO’s get paid 1000 times more than you…but that’s just because you are jealous.
Massive government jobs aren’t sustainable without crippling the nation.
it’s all about sustainablity people…socialism has never been able to sustain itself, unless it is willing to LOWER the standard for a great many people, and if you’ve ever read Animal Farm…the fat pigs at the top will never consent to that.
karthiks030977 Reply:
July 11th, 2009 at 10:38 am
ROFL James.
July 9th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
And Bernie is right:
Its a hard case to make comparing any nordic country to the complexity of the U.S.
Hell, imagine a whole, huge country where the lifestyle is quite similar to that of Minesota.
Um Cara Reply:
July 9th, 2009 at 7:26 pm
But with more alcohol.
Um Cara Reply:
July 9th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
And more women who will put out on the first date.
RDM Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 11:20 am
Norway-where Santa is so Jolly because he knows where all the Bad Girls Live.
Um Cara Reply:
July 9th, 2009 at 7:31 pm
Good God, I love the Nordic countries.
Can’t heavily recommend Minnesota, however.
John G. Reply:
July 9th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
You have to wonder about any state that will elect Jesse Ventura as governor and Stuart Smalley as senator.
OldLefty Reply:
July 9th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
Who’s Stuart Smalley?
Um Cara Reply:
July 9th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
You have to wonder about any state that will elect Jesse Ventura as governor and Stuart Smalley as senator.
I talk about getting drunk and laid by hot Swedish babes, and your mind turns to professional wrestling and Al Franken?
What kind of sick S.O.B. are you?
craig7120 Reply:
July 9th, 2009 at 8:01 pm
snl fictional character Lefty….
John G. Reply:
July 9th, 2009 at 8:05 pm
LOL, a sick, married, S.O.B. who can’t think of getting drunk and laid by hot Swedish babes, lest Alan make an incessant series of posts about my attempts to reconcile with my soon to be ex-wife, despite simultaneously advocating for a person’s right to privacy.
OldLefty Reply:
July 9th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
craig7120, said to “Who’s Stuart Smalley?”
“snl fictional character Lefty…”
…………………..
I SHOULD know that, why bring it up?
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 1:41 am
I SHOULD know that, why bring it up?
—
Because Al Franken played Stuart Smalley…and Minnesota elected Al Franken aka Stuart Smalley.
TDro319 Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
“You have to wonder about any state that will elect Jesse Ventura as governor and Stuart Smalley as senator.”
The same people who elected Michelle “bats**t crazy” Bachmann.
alex Reply:
July 9th, 2009 at 8:08 pm
Best porn in the world, they say.
How is that porn industry in Minesota?
July 9th, 2009 at 7:23 pm
What!?!?! The Norwegians allowed drilling to exploit their oil reserves? Have they no left wing (or moderate right wingers, depending on what scale you want to use) environmentalists to sue them to stop this nonsense? What happened to the polar bears and the penguins? Must have been a complete tragedy and destroyed the whole country.
libpatriot Reply:
July 9th, 2009 at 7:49 pm
Penguins are in Antarctica, John G. There’s no evidence they’ve ever inhabited Norway.
John G. Reply:
July 9th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
Whew…glad they are safe from the land raping antics of the Socialist Norweigian Government. How about the carribou, artic foxes, and sea creatures, whose environments were destroyed so that they could pump oil and gas, sell it to Americans, and implement a single payer health care system. By Thor, I wish we were more like Norway.
libpatriot Reply:
July 9th, 2009 at 11:16 pm
Glad to discover you’re such a big fan of the single payer health care system, John G.! But fandom can sometimes be carried too far.
REDinMN Reply:
July 9th, 2009 at 11:41 pm
What are we going to do with the oil we don’t use and leave in the ground?
libpatriot Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 1:56 am
It will still be there in time for the next Ice Age, REDinMN. Oh, and alex asked a question you may be in a positon to answer: How IS that porn industry in Minnesota?
libpatriot Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 6:16 am
John G., you should know that Norway has a set of strict rules for its oil industry to follow in offshore drilling:
offshore-environment.com/norway.html
There continues to be controversy in Norway about drilling in environmentally sensitive areas like the Lofoten Islands:
icenews.is/index.php/2008/07/22/unesco-may-shut-the-door-on-oil-drilling-off-norway’s-lofoton-islands/
Norway still displays concern for environmental issues, and just last March hosted a three-day international meeting on the status of the polar bear, and made sure to set up a web site so its environmentally-minded citizens could be informed on the background of the meeting:
nytimes.com/2009/03/20/science/earth/20bears.html?_r=2
Arctic foxes prey on caribou, lemmings, and Arctic hares. All are land-adapted animals not really affected by Norway’s oil drilling, since that drilling is done offshore.
However, Norway’s Institute of Marine Research has found cod reproduction can be disrupted by the “gender-bender” chemicals released when oil is drilled from the seabed, with the endocrine system of these fish upset by chemical amounts as low as 0.02 parts per million:
mindfully.org/Water/Oil-Drilling-Damaging-Fish22mar02.htm
And, as GuidoVanHorn states in a post below, Norway’s oil production has already passed its peak:
energycurrent.com/index/php?id=2&storyid=15174
EricG Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 3:13 am
Glad to hear your an anti-environmentalist. You make the memory of John Muir proud.
July 9th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Alan said: Democrats and Obama don’t go nearly far enough.
I’ve been saying that all along. I thought I voted for a strong, leftist president, and I got a compromising centrist. Come on, President Obama, It’s just a jump to the left…
Um Cara Reply:
July 9th, 2009 at 11:00 pm
It’s just a jump to the left…
But then he steps to the riiihiiihiight
DJ Dalek Reply:
July 9th, 2009 at 11:27 pm
He puts his hand on his hip…
average james Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Riff-raff.
RDM Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 6:36 pm
and turns himself about
average james Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
Pull your knees in tight is in there.
Oh and, It’ll drive you insane.
TDro319 Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
I agree wholeheartedly, DJ. Obama is moving too far to the right.
flap Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
Next thing you know he’ll be listening to that EVIL wacko Pope Benedict about how a magic, personhood-imbuing vagina does not miraculously convey rights to a human being as they slide out of the womb! What a dolt!
average james Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 6:44 pm
Yes indeed,
Farther left please.
July 9th, 2009 at 10:57 pm
Norway has already hit peak oil production…it will be interesting to see how their state run economy reacts when they can’t sell their liquid crack.
it’s about sustainability people…not flash in the pan economics.
Rocky the Liberal Rottweiler Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 2:35 am
“…it’s about sustainability…”
Precisely why solar and wind are the only answers that matter.
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 2:48 am
wind and solar can’t meet our national energy needs unless we make a major break through.
both are variable outputs that can’t create a solid baseline of energy.
One PV cell can take 4 to 20 years to pay back the energy that it takes to create the cell.
We are working on ways to make these technologies more viable and certainly need to be part of the product mix. however if you ever want to shut down a coal plant, look nuclear young man! particularly fast breeder reactors.
and my comment was more on the economic scale, than power scale When Norway gets to the point where they can no longer export oil, I predict they will have some major problems, they’ve already reached peak oil by some estimates.
Rocky the Liberal Rottweiler Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
“One PV cell can take 4 to 20 years to pay back the energy…”
I don’t give a crap about the economics. And I don’t give a damn if corporations moan and cry about profit margins getting squeezed.
There would be no corporations except for the fact that we wrote laws to invent them and that means corporations owe their bloodsucking existence to the sufferance of the people of this country–and any time the shareholders find our national policies too burdensome to bear they’re free to sell out or go find a nice tall bridge to jump from.
average james Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 2:51 am
Pillage,
Rocky, you forgot the pillaging.
A pillage based economy is a sustaniable economy.
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 2:54 am
The onion right?
that was funny.
average james Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 2:57 am
Exactly Guido.
He he he
Rocky the Liberal Rottweiler Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
We don’t have to go viking on CEOs. Tar and feathers would probably suffice in most cases. And if they deserve more in the way of justice there’s always Louisville Sluggers.
alex Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Well great britain also hits peak oil production next year.
Guess what: cheap oil is ending. There is no more oil in the planet.
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
“there is no more oil on the planet”. That’s not true.
average james Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
A finite supply of the stuff, and it’s pretty dirty.
Time for a change.
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
And electric cars are the answer, right?
average james Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
From wood burning steam engines to coal burning steam engines to kerosene burning steam engines to internal combustion engines to ……………
Yah, forward. Possibly electric or something else.
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
July 11th, 2009 at 2:33 am
the problem Average James is that the electricity for our electric cars is based on high polluting coal and gas electricity…
you will create MORE greenhouse gases by using an electric car in a coal electricity area.
you’d debate that we should go all Wind/Solar…but we can’t even do that with our current needs, if we add the needs of all cars as well, we are even further behind the 8 ball.
say it with me now…nuclear…nuclear….nuclear….nuclear…nuclear…a little bit louder now…
July 10th, 2009 at 1:43 am
What the ‘world on the street’ is that most of Europe is turning slowly to the right, but that only means they are becoming more like liberals.
Most right wingers who hate all liberals don’t even know what a ’socialist’ is … let alone understanding another country’s politics.
July 10th, 2009 at 3:01 am
“Obama is a right-winger if we’re in Norway”
Yes, and Palin is a moderate if we’re in Alaska.
July 10th, 2009 at 7:35 am
I agree President Hussein and his fellow Democrats are doing an excellent job of destroying the economy.
Four more years of Obam-A-Rama, oh joy.
average james Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 11:39 am
7 1/2 years RDM.
Easy mistake to make. I forgive you.
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 11:49 am
He won’t be a two termer if the economy isn’t fixed, all the troops are brought home and gitmo is closed. That’s a minimum.
Independents are already turning, his approval ratings are going down steadily and people are ticked off that unemployment is now 9.5 when he PROMISED it wouldn’t go above 8.
average james Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 11:53 am
A fella can hope Bliss.
And the right can hope for failure and consequent prolonged misery.
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 11:56 am
AJ
The right doesn’t have to hope for failure. The fact is he made promises on the campaign trail that millions of voters took to heart. Now those voters are upset.
There are plenty of democrats in the senate and congress who are putting the brakes on as well. It isn’t a partisan issue, it’s an American issue.
average james Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Bliss,
Agreed that the right doesn’t have to hope for failure however, I suspect many do.(we all know about Rush and Hannity)
I also believe it to be an American issue and hope for big success. I hope that some backbone can be mustered and real change can come through our legislature.
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
AJ
Once again. There is NOTHING wrong with rush and hannity hoping some of his idealogical policies fail. We are supposed to have dissent, people who speak out against policies, especially our elected officials. That’s what representative government is all about. NOT agreeing with everything that is put in front of you.
Don’t think for one second it makes republicans including hannity and rush un-American to hope that some of the ideaological policies fail.
average james Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
I do not now, nor have I ever(that I remember) said that dissent is un-American. This would include Rush, Hannity and the rest of the loud, obnoxious, wrong, conservative right.
Unlike those on the right who would call folks un-American for protesting war, the WTO, going on strike, enviromental causes, animal rights issues, etc.. I will defend your right to speak out in opposition as a right guaranteed all Americans. Tea partys included.
RDM Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
7 1/2 years AJ? Say it ain’t so.
A typical Obama day: Raise taxes. Blame Bush. Lecture the United States. Find somebody to apologize to. Go for ice cream. Have a cigarette.
See ya in Norway.
average james Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
“Go for ice cream.”
No no no RDM, go for a burger, duh.
TDro319 Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
“See ya in Norway.”
Can I buy you a one way ticket to Norway?
July 10th, 2009 at 11:36 am
“We are supposed to have dissent, people who speak out against policies, especially our elected officials.”
Yeah that’s true, but that ain’t what Limbowel does. He’s a cesspool overflowing with crap.
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Rocky
That is your liberal opinion. Opinion ONLY.
average james Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
I tend to agree with Rocky on this. In my opinion.
TDro319 Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
I also agree with Rocky and AJ.
July 10th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Sean Hannity and his conservatives party is always saying, America should lead the way. So why is his party is letting the Norwegians and the rest of the world lead the way in health care
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
ronald
Who is among the top 5 in the world for cancer survival rates?
TDro319 Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
“Who is among the top 5 in the world for cancer survival rates?”
The U.S., of course. But only for the very rich who can afford the treatment. Wouldn’t it be nice if all Americans were able to afford it?
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
TDRO
What a lie. There are cancer centers that offer treatment FREE OF CHARGE to cancer patients. I can assure you, my family is NOT rich and I have multiple family members who have received EXCELLENT care for cancer and have beaten it.
flap Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
“Wouldn’t it be nice if all Americans were able to afford it?”
Wouldn’t it be nice if wishes were horses, then beggars would ride? Wouldn’t it be nice if we were older, then we wouldn’t have to wait so long? And wouldn’t it be nice to live together in the kind of world where we belong?
Utopia, anyone?
So, TDro, accepting your premise, which I don’t necessarily accept, you’re saying it’s better for rich people to DIE and no one get a cure than for SOMEONE getting a cure?
I’m not saying it’s “fair” but it’s also not “fair” that I’m not rich.
“The US is great, but…”
“The US is tops in this, but…”
“The US is fantastic, but…”
I’m not saying we shouldn’t work very hard to create a more perfect union, but our citizens do pretty well on balance.
I mean, I could say, “Only the rich have lots of money! Wouldn’t it be nice if we all were able to have the same purchasing power?”
flap Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
And Blissful just bodyslammed your premise, anyway, TDro.
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
AND TDRO
Do you really think the government will pay for EXPENSIVE cancer treatments? Experimental, expensive cancer treatments when their goal is CHEAP coverage??
TDro319 Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
It must be nice in Nirvana. But in the real world, many people can’t afford healthcare coverage. And if you have that little faith in the American government, I suggest you and the remaining 15% of the population pack up and leave. Adios!
TDro319 Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
“And Blissful just bodyslammed your premise, anyway, TDro.”
I don’t think so. And sure there are places to go for healtcare which is not dependent on your wealth, but it’s still not “free”. Who do you think picks up the tab on these treatments? It’s passed onto people like you, especially thru your healthcare insurance.
Um Cara Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
And Blissful just bodyslammed your premise, anyway, TDro.
Not really, no. If everyone already has access to health care, as some assert – then universal coverage shouldn’t cost anything (since we apparently already have it, according to some).
Don’t get me wrong – My understanding is that there are people in the US without access to health care, and there will be some cost associated with rectifying that – which I will be happy to pay. God knows my taxes pay for enough stuff I’m not so happy paying for, like Western Europe’s military defense.
Cutting our military in half would go a long way towards freeing up some cash for universal coverage.
OldLefty Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
US NEWS and WORLD REPORT
Uninsured More Likely to Die From Cancer Following Diagnosis
Report finds they’re less likely to get screening tests, so have advanced disease
By Steven Reinberg
Posted 12/20/07
THURSDAY, Dec. 20 (HealthDay News) — People diagnosed with cancer who don’t have health insurance are more likely to die because they are less likely to get screening tests and so are typically diagnosed with advanced disease, a new study from the American Cancer Society finds.
The finding proffers strong evidence that differences in cancer survival are directly related to lack of access to health care.
Also:
WaPo:
Yet numerous measures indicate the country lags in overall health: It ranks 29th in infant mortality, 48th in life expectancy and 19th out of 19 industrialized nations in preventable deaths.
Or just google, NYT: More Money, Worse Results:
(I can’t copy without the charts and grafts.)
RDM Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Why aren’t members of Congress, federal workers, and union members jumping to join the new public health insurance plan?
Maybe because they are planning to keep THEIR gold plated taxpayer funded package!
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Old
Do you know how many people who HAVE private health insurance DON’T get screenings?
I posted a study from the UK just days ago where the U.S. ranks in the top 5 for cancer survival rates. I want someone to post a study where there is an actual NUMBER of cancer related deaths that are directly attributed to the person getting ZERO care.
29th in infant mortality- what are the factors related to that? education or the lack thereof is a biggy. smoking, drugs, alcohol, poor lifestyle before during and after pregnancy, etc etc etc. Look at CUBA. In 1958 they ranked 13th in the world for the best care of infants. POST 1958 when the government took over they are now ranked 59 I think.
Life expectancy- By how many years? How many overweight people do we have who also smoke and don’t exercise but expect to pop a pill to help them?
Have you seen the pic of the guy lately who has GOVERNMNET healthcare/dental care who has had to super glue his tooth in his mouth for the past 3 years because he can’t be seen?
Just for ONCE read some HORROR stories of government run healthcare instead of always posting studies and statistics that paint a rosy picture.
Explain to me why so many canadians come here for cancer drugs they can’t get in canada??
And TDRO…you never answered my question? WHat makes you think the government will pay for experimental, uber expensive cancer drugs when their mantra is cheap care?
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
RDM
Don’t mention that. Liberals don’t want the truth told that we won’t have care like the politicians, including obama have. We will all have rationed care where the weakest and most vulnerable are left to die while the wealthy and imfluential are seen first.
OldLefty Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
“Why aren’t members of Congress, federal workers, and union members jumping to join the new public health insurance plan?”
……………
Congress and federal workers already have the public plan, union members ARE for the public option, and besides many in Congress have been bought and paid for by the insurance companies.
Um Cara Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
We will all have rationed care where the weakest and most vulnerable are left to die while the wealthy and imfluential are seen first.
I tend to agree with you Bliss that the status quo will continue, but I’m at least somewhat hopeful that some changes from the existing system will take place.
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Old
What I hear are excuses. The fact is, YOU or I won’t have a choice. The federal government will take care of it’s employees, the politicians will keep theirs and we will be stuck with CRAP.
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
UM
If they really cared about making the existing system better they would work on TORT reform, and look into giving tax credits to physicians and facilities for indigent care dollar for dollar.
OldLefty Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
What does it matter how many people with private policies get screenings?
It’s a matter, of being able to afford or not afford it.
As for infant mortality rate, we are behind Cuba as of April, 2009.
There is no doubt that we have some of the best care here, the question is who has access to it?
I don’t know how extensive that is, I don’t doubt that it is more or less true, the same as it is true that we get drugs cheaper from Canada.
Two things:
#1) If the Canadian system is so bad, why aren’t they demanding to go to a system like ours?
#2) Why shouldn’t we aspire to to system that is better than what we have now, AND better than what other industrial nations have?
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
Old
It matters how many people who HAVE private policies get screenings because they are included in the number of folks who DON’T get diagnosed early enough.
Everyone has access to care regardless of ability to pay. FACT.
There are PLENTY of canadian citizens, physicians, nurses, etc who ARE asking for a system MORE like ours. You not knowing that proves to me that everything you google/research is one sided.
We DOOOO aspire to have a better system, it’s just that not everyone wants the flippin government in control of it, taking away our rights, taking away our choices, making a stink of something like they do everything they touch.
OldLefty Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
blissfulconservative,
The point of the article is : UNINSURED More Likely to Die From Cancer Following Diagnosis.
I don’t know the stats, but the VERY poor may get more free preventive care than those with huge co pays, if they have access to the clinics.
The Canadians have a democracy, they can vote just like we do.
Truth is, EVERYONE in the healthcare field knows people in other countries who confirm their beliefs.
This, “it’s just that not everyone wants the flippin government in control of it, taking away our rights, taking away our choices, making a stink of something like they do everything they touch”…. is YOUR opinion.
From Fortune:
Veterans’ hospitals used to be a byword for second-rate care or worse. Now, thanks to technology, they’re national leaders in efficiency and quality.
By David Stires, FORTUNE writer
May 11, 2006: 2:44 PM EDT
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Old
THe VA is such a great leader in efficiency and quality that over 3,000 veterans were exposed to HIV because of poor sanitation practices??????
And this from the AP just a few months ago:
“WASHINGTON, Jan. 14, 2009 (AP Online delivered by Newstex) — Patients at Veterans Affairs health centers around the country were given incorrect doses of drugs, had needed treatments delayed and may have been exposed to other medical errors due to software glitches that showed faulty displays of their electronic health records.
The glitches, which began in August and lingered until last month, were not disclosed by the Veterans Affairs Department to patients even though they sometimes involved prolonged infusions of drugs such as heparin, which in excessive doses can be life-threatening, according to internal documents obtained by The Associated Press under the Freedom of Information Act.”
Truth is, everyone in the healthcare field, myself included KNOW people in other countries who aren’t as happy with their healthcare as you want everyone to believe.
The canadians have a democracy yes. So do we. Does that mean WE get to vote on WHICH healthcare plan we get??? NOOOOOOOOOOOOO. An emphatic NOOOOO.
You don’t know the stats, so don’t paint a grim picture.
Are you happy with social security, medicare, medicaid???? If you are, you are the only person I know who is happy with it.
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
From the AP:
“The AP estimates that at least 20,000 of the 56,000 people in the US who die each year of cancer are uninsured.”
SO, 20,000 who die are UNinsured, but 36,000 who die ARE insured.
OldLefty Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Take it up with Fortune magazine.
I googled your 3,000 vets story, and all I get is:
( from Free republic) Nurse May Have Infected 300 in Virginia With Hepatitis C
foxnews.com ^ | March 27, 2008 | AP
Posted on March 27, 2008 12:16:14 PM EDT by RDTF
NEWPORT NEWS, Va. — A Virginia hospital has asked more than 300 former patients to come in for blood tests because a nurse suspected of infecting patients with hepatitis in Texas worked there last year.
But Bush DID allow Walter Reed to happen.
These things happen in all hospitals. You certainly don’t want patients to sue when it happens in private hospitals.
( I once knew a nurse who gave a post op AF bypass 25 mg of thorazine, instead of 2.5…it happens.)
It certainly doesn’t take away from the whole system .
My cousin in law just recently was very happy with his care there.
As I’ve said, EVERYBODY knows SOMEONE who confirms their worldview.
As for voting for a plan, the people voted to change what we have now.
And EVERYONE I know is happy with their with social security, medicare, or Medicaid.
I don’t see anyone calling to get rid of them.
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
If you don’t know ANYONE who is unhappy with their medicare/medicaid you don’t know many people ON medicare and medicaid.
You didn’t google very hard if this didn’t pop up regardint he 3000 vets:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/143427.php
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
July 11th, 2009 at 2:38 am
But Bush DID allow Walter Reed to happen.
—
yeah, because Bush was strolling down to Walter Reed every day and telling the doctors to do a crappy job…
I sneezed yesterday…it must be Bush’s fault.
July 10th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
blissfulconservative ,
When you say things like,
“RDM
Don’t mention that. Liberals don’t want the truth told”
…………………
What makes you think that anyone thinks that “conservatives want to hear the truth”??
While both sides engage in this hyperbole, aren’t we just talking to ourselves?
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Old
YOU act as if government control=better care. It doesn’t. What it equals is MORE red tape, more interference between the doctor/patient relationship, rationing, more czars, etc etc.
You don’t want to talk about the fact that we will never see the type of insurance plan that obama and his family have, as long as the government is the one footing the bill.
Um Cara Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 3:57 pm
YOU act as if government control=better care
Well, there are quite a few countries doing better than us on any number of different metrics who have universal coverage.
US health care is the best, or among the best, for those who can afford it – but for the average Joe (or Sam) there are many other countries doing better.
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
I am an average joe UM.
If the only problem is cost, the two issues I addressed in my above post would alleviate the problem of cost.
BUT that wouldn’t clear the path for larger government controlling yet another aspect of our lives.
Daddio Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
I still say, if you think health care is expensive now just wait until it is free, courtesy of the US government. And I don’t mean in only the dollars sense.
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
Not to mention the fact that there is no way in heck that the people who are working now will be able to pay for EVERYONE who either can’t work or chooses not to work to have health insurance.
Social Security is broke, medicare and medicaid lose money, so what makes you think yet another government run program will fix anything?
Daddio Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
Exactly my point Blissful.
Have to run again. Talk to you all later.
Keep up the good work Blissful.
trees are people too Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
Those other countries don’t have the same population that we do.
We simply don’t have the funds to do this.
If we raise the taxes, to provide the necessary funds then we have drastically changed the way this country was designed to operate.
But I guess that’s your point.
Socialism is not the solution, I don’t believe it is anyway.
Why wouldn’t we provide tax incentives/credits to companies to privately enroll their employees in health care plans??
This makes a lot more sense.
The Government should not be in the health care business, and they should not be in the auto or banking business either…….
Um Cara Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
That’s just because we are basically providing the military for all those countries that DO have socialized medicine.
End socialized military protection for the rest of the world, cut our military spending in half (to start, then start making some serious cuts to military spending).
Seriously, we are a very wealthy country – Trees. What on earth makes you think we can’t afford it when a country like Brazil can?
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
Um
Let me ask you. What is the standard of living in Brazil vs. the standard of living in the U.S.? Also, what is minimum wage there, how many live in poverty, what is the income/sales tax, etc etc
Um Cara Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
Let me ask you. What is the standard of living in Brazil vs. the standard of living in the U.S.? Also, what is minimum wage there, how many live in poverty, what is the income/sales tax, etc etc
Exactly! The US is a far, far, far more wealthy country than Brazil, and yet they manage to have universal health care and WE can’t afford it?
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
Um
If their universal healthcare is so great why do so many american physicians/nurses travel on “mission” trips to do charity work for those who can’t afford pricey surgeries etc in brazil?
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
I don’t see brazilian physicians planning mission trips to the U.S. to provide excellent medical care we can’t get otherwise.
Um Cara Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
I don’t see brazilian physicians planning mission trips to the U.S. to provide excellent medical care we can’t get otherwise.
Of course not, the US is far more wealthy.
If their universal healthcare is so great why do so many american physicians/nurses travel on “mission” trips to do charity work for those who can’t afford pricey surgeries etc in brazil?
Brazil still has terrible infrastructure. You could consider the big cities first world quality infra, but head out to the Amazon and you are in third world territory.
I suspect most of those mission trips are to those types of areas.
Brazil is still a developing country. But surely you know this?
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
DDDDD. Yes I know it’s still developing. Some would argue that many rural residents who still live without power and running water in the states are living in 3rd world conditions.
So physicians in brazil don’t have the means to offer care here in the u.s. ?? Or, is it that the u.s. doesn’t need their help?
Um Cara Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
So physicians in brazil don’t have the means to offer care here in the u.s. ?? Or, is it that the u.s. doesn’t need their help?
I’m sure the US could use their help – but I doubt the average Brazilian feels that a country as wealthy as the US needs their charity as much as, say, Paraguay.
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
July 11th, 2009 at 2:41 am
Paraguay…the punching bag of Brasil…
There are definitely two (or maybe even three)Brasil’s…The big cities…smaller cities in Brazil…and the Amazon.
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
July 11th, 2009 at 2:44 am
It’s impossible to drive from Manaus to Sao Paulo…I had a road map of the US…and when I explained all the lines were roads, the brazilian guy I was living with was freaking amazed.
There was one city we had to travel to and to get there you had to drive 4 hours from another decent sized city…even though if they’d just build a direct road it’s only about 30 miles to the east.
OldLefty Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
blissfulconservative,
We are talking about government pay, not run.
All the doctors I know, except for the few right wingers who smile and shrug their shoulders , get the red tape, more interference between the doctor/patient relationship, rationing, etc etc. from the private, for profit insurers now.
No plan has even been offered yet so we don’t know what we will get.
RDM Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
What do the Doctors you know say about Medicare?
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
Bullcrap. When you talk about private insurance you claim that THEY really run the healthcare system because they are the ones PAYING. NOW you are going to tell me that it won’t be government run even though the government will be PAYING for it??
Spin, spin spin, but it ain’t workin’
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
The doctors I know HATTTTTTTE it.
average james Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
Bliss,
Why do health insurance companies exist ?
For profit.
The money taken in-premiums, minus the money doled out-claims, equals the profit.(simplified)
Profit is their aim, their primary purpose.
Higher premiums means potential higher profits only if claims/procedures can be minimized. Less payout means higher profit.
How can this be in the best interest of a patient ? Ever.
Health insurance companies are a for profit middleman.
Eliminate the middleman.
Replace it with a tax-funded, non-profit, government as the one payer system.
Ronald Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 7:45 pm
The Las Vegas Hepatitis-C/HIV Crisis
“The VA is such a great leader in efficiency and quality that over 3,000 veterans were exposed to HIV because of poor sanitation practices??????”
Even for profit medical facilities have their problems to. Just because it’s a government run medical facilities pay form our taxes. The care they provide is less, or the training is not as good. It all breaks down to how one will manage their company or the section they are over. And yes I have googled health care, and have talked to individuals from Canada, England, Norway, and Germany. Which all have one type of government run health care system. Once I’ve talked to are happy with their health care. You should visit Canada and ask a common guy on the street.
Exposure in Las Vegas by professional people in a for-profit health care system.
In February 2008, over 50,000 Las Vegas residents and former residents were made aware of the possibility that they had been exposed to Hepatitis-C, Hepatitis-B, and HIV through the careless and lax procedures at the Endoscopy Center of Southern Nevada, located at 700 Shadow Lane in Las Vegas.
The Endoscopy Center, which performed internal diagnostic procedures, neglected to dispose of used anesthetizing equipment, and instead reused syringes and vials on multiple patients.
http://lasvegas.about.com/od/governmentcivicsissues/a/hepatitis.htm
Also look here—>http://www.lvrj.com/news/16143007.html
average james Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 8:45 pm
Wow Ronald,
That’s a scary story.
I too speak to people from abroad. They like their government run health care. No system is perfect but, most industrialized nations have far more equitable plans in place that serve their populations very well.
libpatriot Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 9:32 pm
Ronald, thanks for the links on that Las Vegas hospital that reused syringes and medication vials on orders from the hospital administration to save money, exposing possibly as many as 40,000 patients to Hep-B, Hep-C, and HIV. Just another example of how the selfish motives of private industry can (at times) harm the public. I agree with AJ, it’s a frightening story.
Ronald Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 11:52 pm
Your welcome
July 10th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
45 million uninsured Americans…Who are these guys?
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
That is an incorrect number. I don’t have the stats in front of me, BUT of that 45 million a large percentage are young healthy professionals who COULD have insurance but choose not to.
Some are illegals, and only a small portion, I think 10% are the ones who really don’t have a choice or the means to get insurance.
RDM Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
Do you think the ones that choose not to have Medical Savings type plans?
Ronald Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 11:27 pm
Why would the young professionals choose not to have insurance? Oh the ones that have lots of money. There are families out there that are living from paycheck to paycheck. And cannot afford health insurance.
Canada England Norway and most of the industrialized countries provide a health plan for their citizens. And have no plans to step backwards to a health plan that will not protect their citizens.
You can find the information you want on the Internet. And you can justify all of the information you find to fit into your beliefs.
I believe that we will be judged on how we protect the weak and less fortunate.
So where is the truth at.
By the way The Las Vegas Hepatitis-C/HIV Crisis, I was a patient there.
P.S. Your data is wrong.
GuidoVanHorn Reply:
July 11th, 2009 at 2:46 am
some people don’t want insurance…and don’t want to go to doctors.
blissfulconservative Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
Here’s some statistics on that bogus 45-50 million number:
http://www.freemarketproject.org/printer/2007/20070718153509.aspx
RDM Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Thanks
OldLefty Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
You can also visit The National Coalition on Health Care:Facts about Healthcare.
“Who are the uninsured?
Nearly 46 million Americans, or 18 percent of the population under the age of 65, were without health insurance in 2007, the latest government data available.1”
The above Free market project site,: site Health Care Lie: ‘47 Million Uninsured Americans’ comes from the Business & Media Institute
Look at both sites AND the members.
Ronald Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
You can find the information you want on the Internet. And you can justify all of the information you find to fit into your beliefs.
http://covertheuninsured.org/content/fact-sheets
July 10th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
Interesting Discussion.
Bliss:
Have a look at this book.
http://www.mises.org/Books/mysteryofbanking.pdf
Contrary to what Jar(h)e(a)d claims,I didnt find anything remotely race baiting in the entire book. Tells you what your government has been doing to your dollars,in a nonpartisan manner.
You wont find any R-D references in the book.
Others are also welcome to have a read,I get just 2 cents everytime someone opens up that PDF Doc.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:24 am
“End socialized military protection for the rest of the world, cut our military spending in half (to start, then start making some serious cuts to military spending).”
-taken from Um Cara posted above. This is one of the best ideas mentioned in the above conversation. It could save a lot of money.
karthiks030977 Reply:
July 11th, 2009 at 11:10 pm
I totally agree.Military spending is probably the 2nd biggest reason why the US Gov has such a big deficit(the biggest reason is still the very size of Gov). But military spending is by and large wasteful.Bulk of the expense goes up in smoke.
July 11th, 2009 at 10:45 pm