The Liberty Counsel’s “Adopt A Liberal” Program
The right-wing Liberty Counsel is urging its supporters to “Adopt a Liberal” (h/t RightWingWatch)
Since the landmark 2008 general election, there can be no doubt that a very large percentage of our Nation’s leaders have a liberal mindset. The undeniable fact is that the 111th Pelosi-Reid Congress and the Obama Administration demonstrate a far left political philosophy. And since the President nominates federal judges and Justices of the United States Supreme Court, the judicial branch of government could take on a decidedly more liberal bent as the Obama Administration wears on.
Liberty Counsel has therefore named this special new prayer-in-action program Adopt a Liberal. And that’s exactly what we invite you to do — adopt a liberal who is in authority for regular, intense prayer in accord with St. Paul’s admonition to his disciple, Timothy. In fact, we expect that many of our friends and supporters will choose to adopt many liberals as subjects of regular prayer!
Saying that prayer is powerful and “allows God to change the minds for whom we are praying,” it offers a list of liberals or says you can choose your own.
Pray that the Lord would move upon them and cause them to be the kind of leaders who will encourage others to lead “a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.” We encourage you to seek the Lord’s guidance on how to pray for your liberal(s), always allowing Him to temper your prayer with His love and mercy.
Here is the suggested list:
Mayor Michael Bloomberg
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton
Congressman Barney Frank
Director John Holdren
Mr. Barry Lynn
Secretary Janet Napolitano
President Barack Obama
Senator Harry Reid
Speaker Nancy Pelosi
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
Senator Olympia Snowe
The “Unknown Liberal”
Although I didn’t make the list, perhaps some sympathetic Liberty Counsel supporter will take pity on me, and include me in his or her prayers.
That is a funny satire piece. Er, they are serious?
EricG Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
I think so. As crazy as it is.
September 28th, 2009 at 11:19 am
Is a great concept.
Keep praying for liberals.
Atleast then, the threats of violent takeover will abate, and we might have a debate.
average james Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Be careful what you pray for, comes to mind.
I’ll keep praying for liberals.
I’ll keep praying for conservatives.
I’ll keep praying for God’s will to be done, wich is frequently not in line with what I think is the best thing.
Hey Karthicks,
Did a little reading on the Gita over the weekend.
Karma yoga, and the Atman…….I’ll keep looking into it. So far, very intriguing and insightful.
September 28th, 2009 at 11:20 am
My understanding of prayer is that when communicating with God, deception is not a good option. So prayer helps overcome the common human frailty of self-deception. To believe that a mere mortal is going to convince the “All-mighty” to change course and grant the wish of a prayer is primitive. In my view, the only change that can occur with these prayers is to rid the self-deception of the prayer. I’m not saying it’s likely, just that it is the only possibility.
average james Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
I think I get and agree with what you’re saying Johannes.
I very rarely pray for specifics anymore.
I mostly pray that God’s will be done and that I be ok with the outcome.
I also pray that God puts the next indicated right thing in my path and to help me walk it( keeps me honest).
flap Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
“I mostly pray that God’s will be done and that I be ok with the outcome.”
I think that’s an excellent prayer, AJ. Instead of “I want this, God, and I want this, God, and I want this…” :)
I don’t pray like I should, but that’s probably a great way to do it.
average james Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
Flap,
I do pray like that……now. I have found out just how silly I was trying to direct God’s plan.
Because I did try.
Nowadays the, ‘please help me be ok with the outcome’ ending is being answered daily.
Peace that passes understanding is the inward result. Contentment.
God is good.
John Galt Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 10:31 pm
God is good.
Nah.
God is great.
Beer is good.
And people are crazy.
average james Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 10:39 am
Good one John !!
Ha ha he he ha he
EricG Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
“In my view, the only change that can occur with these prayers is to rid the self-deception of the prayer.”
Praying for a change in your heart or the strength you need to make it through another day can be something that is very helpful.
Praying for Sara Palin to find sanity, not a good idea.
Same goes the other way. I’m offended by this stuff.
And I doubt they are kidding. They are dead serious and that’s what is scary.
flap Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
“I’m offended by this stuff.”
You’re offended by anything not extreeeeeeeemely left wing.
EricG Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 11:25 am
Not true.
I love Bruce Dumont. He is second banana to Alan Colmes in my radio-world.
And he is fully rightwing conservative Republican, you name it.
But he is fair, respectful, truthful, decent and most of all I never hear him do what YOU just did where he might pigeon-hole someone into being a certain way before they even have a chance to say something about it.
In other words, not being a dirty dog. no dirty pool politics. Stop doing donuts on my lawn, please. That kind of thing…
___
I bet you never listen to left-wing stuff.
I can just imagine you’re blasting Air America and watching Countdown right now, sure…
___
This right here, Flap, is not left or right.
This “praying for liberals to change” stuff is pure condescension, pure arrogance and purely unholy.
That’s why it offends me.
It’s like praying for Jews to accept Jesus, it’s wrong.
September 28th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
Alan, you deserve to be on the list. I will adopt you.
“Right thinking” reminds me of the movie Cool Hand Luke. “You got your mind right, Alan?!”
average james Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Please include me on that list Flap.
I’ll lift you up too.
The more we pray for each other the better.
flap Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Hehe, well, I was joking about Alan because of the “adopt a liberal” thing but I will certainly pray for anyone who needs it (which is all of us libs/cons/moderates, I think).
average james Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Agreed.
And funny too.
September 28th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
I think praying for someone in a manor that manipulates them politically is actually called Black Witchcraft! Alan, trust me..You don’t want to be on a list like that. It’s a dark form of manipulation and arrogance. Of course, my understanding is praying in that fashion, also, throws the energy back on the person casting that black energy.
average james Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
You reap what you sow.
EricG Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Yes, I try not to point out these things. But yes you are right.
That’s actually “Satanic Prayer” depending on where you take your information from.
I don’t like all those words, myself.
Positive or negative.
It’s negative.
(See, that’s much better.)
September 28th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
Isn’t there a little something about this kind of hubris?
For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?
Corinthians 4:7
“Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 6:1
“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.
Matthew 6:5
Maybe people should go to their site and offer to pray for them, that they will give up their pridefulness.
average james Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
Good stuff Lefty.
OldLefty Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
Thanks average james,
I think I feel that : what makes them think that we should not pray that they remain true to liberalism, and not fall sway to the sins of mammon or the pressure to submit to the sin of usury?
Debby Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
Thanks Um…I love the book of Matthew. That is why I named First born, a son, Matthew. I enjoyed having the time these past few days to log on with you wonderful people. Now, going out to pick my remaining beans and raspberries. I am making Organic Steaks from my brother-in-laws cows, garden beans and potato’ and raspberry crisp with home-made whip cream. I wish you could, all, come to dinner. I enjoy you so. I will check in before night down. Have a great day.
Debby Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Oh sorry..Thanks Lefty!
OldLefty Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Hey, Debby.
See, now I must share, again:
Back in 04, Mad Magazine did this great piece about if George Bush ran against Jesus, but it works as well for Republicans.
Republican campaign ad against Jesus:
Jesus of Nazareth says,
“Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you”
JESUS FAVORS MORE GOVERNMENT HANDOUTS FOR WELFARE CHEATS
Jesus of Nazareth says,
“Judge not, lest ye be not judged.”
JESUS IS SOFT ON CRIME
Jesus of Nazareth says,
‘Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God, that which is God’s.’”
JESUS WILL RAISE YOUR TAXES
Jesus of Nazareth says,
“But I tell you not to resist an evildoer. On the contrary, whoever slaps you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well.”
CAN WE TRUST JESUS TO FIGHT THE WAR ON TERROR?
JESUS…
WRONG ON SOCIAL ISSUES,
WRONG ON CRIME,
WRONG ON DEFENSE,
WRONG FOR AMERICA!
average james Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
That is awesome Lefty !!!!
wrong for america…..ha ha ha ha ha
EricG Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Awesome, Old Lefty!
That’s great stuff.
I wouldn’t be surprised if I’ve read that copy myself, that seems very familiar.
““But I tell you not to resist an evildoer. On the contrary, whoever slaps you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well.””
This is the one where if you find me a Christian I’ll show you a bad one. Everyone wants to be Christians on the rightwing but they all want to go “get the evil doers” and when they hear this they have to reject it.
It’s not so much turn the other cheek so much as accept their violence and their hate for what it is so that it won’t corrupt you as well.
But that’s essentially pacifism which is one of the most outright rejected ways of life in the US today and I know that because I’m one and people truly hate you for it if they ever find out you’re one.
Buddhists have this problem too.
People don’t like you if you won’t go kill someone with them, or if beat up people in more realistic situations.
average james Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
I’ve heard this “turn the other cheek” explained in historical context and it made a lot of sense to me.
In Christ’s time the Romans had conquered and were occupying Israel.
The Romans believed that the left hand was unclean. It was used to wipe your a$$ and other unclean things.
They used their left hands to slap someone as a severe insult, to denigrate them, usually slaves.
They only hit each other with their right hands, Roman on Roman violence if you will, or a challenge. Roman citizen to Roman citizen or equal. Equqal to equal.
Christ knew this and offered a third way to react.
Not the way of violence/retaliation or the way of humiliation/being treated as less than human, not equal.
If slapped by a Roman, which would always be the left hand, turn your cheek so that if they were to strike you again it would require the right hand, signifying equality rather than superiority.
It made alot of sense to me.
average james Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
“If asked to walk one mile, walk two miles”–JC
Again in historical context,
The Roman law was that soldiers could require subjegated peoples (occupied Isreal in this case) that were non-citizens to carry their gear, but only for one mile. It is said that they wanted to show benevolence, therefore helping to quell rebellious attitudes.
If asked to carry their gear, Christ suggested that one walk an additional mile, which would cause the Roman soldier to be in violation of Roman law, maybe get in trouble with his commanders. Pretty savvy non-violent protest technique.
It probably helped cut down on Romans asking Jews to carry their gear.
Jesus was a community organizer after all.
EricG Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 11:06 am
This is a great example of why there is a need to not take the Bible in a fundamentalist view. Many of lessons require understanding and not just merely of the literal words “turn the other cheek” but an understanding of the context.
I’ve often referred to Jesus as socially progressive figure.
Alan says Jesus was a liberal in his book, but I think words like “liberal” just don’t apply in historical context at all. Nor does “socialist”.
He was a social progressive and anti-rich.
Sometimes I wonder if these “Liberty Counsel”-types ever actually read anything out of Bible. It just seems impossible they could be so upside-down.
September 28th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
Wow, so they fully admit to their own egomaniac complexes.
They really think they have to “fix” everyone to be like them.
Can I make Hitler analogies now?
Still too soon?
September 28th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
On a more serious note:
I do this already when I have a mind to.
Praying for people who hate others to let go of that hate.
But that’s it.
I never prayed for anyone to vote or think or do something … that I would.
Just to let go of the breeding, festering hatred for others they cling to so fiercely. It will destroy them.
September 28th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
“it is best to check the weather forecast before praying for rain,”
Mark Twain
craig7120 Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 6:49 pm
yeah, im with you dude.
September 28th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
Oh they are ticked off up in Sacramento about this. I can promise you that Arnold doesn’t like being called a liberal one little bit. His wife is liberal but he sure isn’t.
I totally missed this at first glance.
They are completely spitting on him.
Figures. These people are arrogant saps anyway. Throw everyone down the stairs that doesn’t agree with them all that.
September 28th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Well, I think this prayer to change their minds is a bit off. But, changing a heart to honor many of the principals of Christ is no problem. But we should do it for our Republicans as well, because we have corrupt leaders as well. Corruption is a bi-partisan product of Politics. It happens we should for the corruption to end, and hearts to turn towards a servants heart, which is a biblical (and should be Political) concept. Now to tack on to a couple of responses given by the previous Post’s
Old Lefty: Jesus of Nazareth says,
“Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you”
JESUS FAVORS MORE GOVERNMENT HANDOUTS FOR WELFARE CHEATS
Sorry my good man this was the role of Jesus’followers and the church, not the government. He never said this was the job of Rome.
Jesus of Nazareth says,
“Judge not, lest ye be not judged.”
JESUS IS SOFT ON CRIME
Mmm again, this is on a personal level, He does not want us to personally judge others, for they in turn will judge you right back. This has nothing to do with the judicial system. To go one furthur, Jesus said, I did not come to condem the world…. so this was not his Role. So he talked of forgiveness, love, and mercy, he did not say that all will go unpunished.
Jesus of Nazareth says,
‘Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God, that which is God’s.’”
JESUS WILL RAISE YOUR TAXES
Wow, I dont know how that implies the raising of taxes at all.. haha he symply says pay your taxes and give God’s what is God’s….I have no clue how that can be used as a point at all. Anyhow dont hate, just thought Id bring Biblical clarity to that post. Which, in the first place, is way off the topic of Prayer for liberal leaders haha.
And I dont believe If someone wants to pray for a liberal is pridefull. If someone wants to pray for anyone its a good thing. Granted if someone is praying for someone to change their ways, and the person doing the praying has that flaw in his/her own life they should pray for that problem in themselves, and fix it, then you can pray for someone else. But in no way is it pridefull, or hypocritical in and of itself.
Allan Colmes I will pray for you! And its not to say how you will change! hehe if you even will! I will adopt you! :) even though you were not on the list! I respect you and enjoy watching your appearances on Fox.
Praying as soon as I hit Submit Comment! :)
OldLefty Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
“JESUS FAVORS MORE GOVERNMENT HANDOUTS FOR WELFARE CHEATS
Sorry my good man this was the role of Jesus’followers and the church, not the government. He never said this was the job of Rome”
…………
.
Frankly, I don’t think we really who he meant; to a$$ume that he meant specific followers, does not mean that he opposed a safety net.
The point of the satire was that is no connection between the teaching of Jesus Christ and the free market Republicans.
What I consider to be prideful is the idea of assuming that they are the “right thinking “ ( from their web site ) ones, which is why I suggested people contact them with conservatives for whom they can pray to become “right thinkers”.
Falconx Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
I agree with that Lefty! In fact I think there are ideas that Left wingers believe are very much the idea that Jesus would want!
But yes your right, I think for Right wingers to pray that people become left wingers is like praying for the Atlanta Braves to beat the Yankees :)
Falconx Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
ugh corretion on my last post… I cant type!
* But yes you are right, I think for Right wingers to pray that left wingers convert to Right wing policy is like praying for the Atlanta Braves to beat the Yankees:) *
average james Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
Hey Falcox,
You seem like you know a thing or two about Christ,
what do you think of the posts above concerning historical context ?
Have you heard this take before ?
By the way I agree with you on this post.
Praying that you change from left to right or visa versa is…….well, lame.
Praying for God’s will, whatever that may be, seems to more closely follow Christ’s example ala the Lord’s prayer.
average james Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
Falconx,Falconx,Falconx
sorry for my typos as well.
Falconx Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 6:04 pm
Are you referring to the turn the other cheek left hand thing? if so, than yes! I know that , and that is also why if your ever in the middle east you never shake with your left hand! Its a social thing tied into that same principal years before! And thats also where the term “RIGHT-HAND-MAN”came from .. because your right hand, is the good hand, therefore your right hand man is your good man!
But yah that is true God wants us to turn the other cheek and forgive, like the parable of the lender and the servant!
average james Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 6:52 pm
Falconx,
Have you heard of the turn the other cheek in regards to presenting the side of the face that requires the right hand to slap it. Basically backing the Roman into a corner. It presents a dilemma to the Roman to either acknowledge that you are a human equal or cease with the degradation ?
I found this take to be very interesting.
It strikes me as a great example of an ‘off the beaten path’ way of doing things.
It’s an example of Christ teaching us to think outside of the box.
September 28th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
Falconx,
‘Sorry my good man this was the role of Jesus’ followers and the church, not the government.’ Falconx
Beg to differ, Falconx.
The church did not yet exist and you would also have to throw away the good Samaritan as to who one’s brother is. Christ’s teachings were inclusive as were his actions. He also told us that the job of government is to to good to its citizens and to punish evildoers.
“Judge not, lest ye be judged.” is on the personal level for sure however, “he is without sin, let him cast the first stone” seems appropiate to the point. As well, one could use “Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more” or the sinner praying silently in the back of the synagogue who is justified.
Almost exclusively He put the religious leaders into the ‘hypocrit’ category and railed against their making of slaves to the law.
Christ told the Jews to pay their taxes at a time of occupation and subjugation by Rome.
How much more then shall we willingly pay taxes levied for good ?
Falconx Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Good points and thoughts James! But if you want to get REEAL deep the church was just starting right there.. the establishment of buildings in cities had not been created yet. But in technical terms the church was started right when Jesus and the Disciples started fellowshipping and worshiping God! The church is the body of believers .. not an organization.
And wait i dont quite get your good samaratan comment… it still is on the personal level… not governmental… No doubt Jesus wanted to do good deeds and be like the good samaratin… and besides the U.S. is one of the most giving and benefactory countries in the world…. sooo i ont know what your driving at:) If you would clarify that would be awesome!
And Yes He who has no sin cast the first stone was at the establishe form of the Law of the Jews, and the hypocrisy of their ways… Not the Reigning Government (Rome).
And Oh I love your last comment, good and thought provoking! Mmm now this is where it gets dicey! …. because with that comment I believe that you are referring to big government like the healthcare bill….or other programs similar to it (big gov) that is political benevolance … not personal. that is a tough line to cross because some think the way the benevolance is being distributed is not the best… therefore it may be better to leave it up to the individual… but on that line again he is saying to pay taxes… SO IF the bill was passed Jesus would say, Pay those taxes….. and we would have to do so as citizens of the U.S. But since it is not, the idea of doing it personally, or by big government is up for debate… and there is no one clear direction of right or wrong.. this is where it is left completely political, and not necesarily Scriptural. :)
Good points Average James
average james Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
I like that,
‘if the bill was passed….pay those taxes’, agreed.
My point with the good Samaritan is, I see and hear alot of ‘why should I have to help/pay for someone else ?’.
That overarching attitude is what the ‘christian’ conservative right seems permeated with.
This attitude flies in the face of the spirit in which Christ made the point, while being espoused by ‘christians’.
I find it disturbing.
Falconx Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
Ahh thanks for dumbing it down for me lol :)
Umm Yes I understand that, but you cannot pin the right wingers as all christians… i personally am for helping others.. and I do so.. but! I do know that there is also an extensive ammount of abuse in governmental systems set up for the benefit of the poor! Now this is my opinion on the matter. I believe that we should help the poor, but it does not rely on the government doing it for us. This is where our own responsibility comes in. We take care of the poor indavidually, granted more is done if we take a little from everyone, but its not voluntary. To get biblical… the Bible shows that if we dont give with a cheerful/giving heart, we are not to give at all! untill we fix the problem in our hearts!… but back to the idea of it, what about a selfish person who does not follow any secular,biblical, or other religious good morals. that just does not want to pay … do we strip his right to save that money to be used elsewhere in his/her life? just a thought.
Sorry a bit of rabbit trailing….
But basically on the Biblical/ Christ side of it, the idea of benevolance is Greatly encouraged, but not necisarrily on the governmental scale…
Now me personally seing abuse in welfare and such, would like to see more responsibility produced form those recieveing it. Granted it has been used properly and it has helped many lives and families, which is awesome! and if it was all like htis, than honestly, I would 100 percent approve of this stuff. But! There is rampant misuse, and abuse in these benevolant systems that suck it dry. Untill I see the system working at a higher efficiancy, I dont personally believe that I would want to endorse a public advancement of a system that is somewhiat flawed… because on a Biblical standard we are to be good stewards of what we have been given! .. so In My personal good stewardship I would prefer to put my benevolance in a place where I know it is not going to be misused.
Its not the Idea, its the system i dont 100% agree with:) … and I think thats how a lot of Republican Christians believe.
Good stuff Average James! I love talking with you!
average james Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
Yes Falconx,
Actual dialogue can certainly be provacative.
Especially without the yelling, although that can be entertaining.
I agree with you that the bible does not promote government involvement, nor discourage it.
It seems to simply acknowledge it, and admonishes us to abide by the laws of it.
I see health care within the realm of legitimate government involvement. Much like the Judicial system, the roads, the fire dept., the police dept., the military, the CDC, the FDA, the VA, Social Security, the FCC, the SEC, you get the picture. None of these is a for-profit entity.
I see for-profit health insurance companies as morally wrong, as they place profit ahead of patient.
They absolutely must place profit first as they are a business. That is what business is for, profit.
I believe human lives come before profit.
Period.
This is an impossible standard to achieve ( by definition ) with for-profit insurance companies.
average james Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
I was taught that the church actually started on the day of pentacost. When the Spirit came down and indwelt the early believers. No they’re not drunk…..
Splitting hairs ?
I also know that not all Republicans are “Christians” although many will claim that they are. In fact, it seems many conservative Republicans claim Christianity and call us liberals godless, which seems awfully judgemental.
It saddens me, in light of judge not lest you be judged.
It’s like a this strange mix, politcal phariseeism.
Weird.
Weird from the pulpit, weird from the lay people.
Falconx Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 7:56 pm
Ok cool!
Well, I agree life should be put over profit too! Which is why Im all for reform on private insurance companies, I agree that in the sense that we are ok with the regulation of those companies and making sure that they dont drop coverage on a person that is “protected”by that insurance company. and regulating the market, not creating a new one.
hehe and yah, i think we might be getting to a splitting hair topic on when the origional church wsa actually formed:)
And yah its bad to steriotype either way. Granted typically though more hard core conservatives tend to be more on the Christian side, and Hard core libs tend to be less Christian in t
But I dont see healthcare as a public service like the military, can you imagine if the military had stateside branches, or private contractors?… We would have mini wars between the states like in anciant Greece, so obviously that is a Federal branch and needs to be left that way. But yah healthcare I think should be left private. But thats my opinion. and again I dont see it as a biblical principal whether its public or private, but I do agree life should be valued higher than profit! I just see us going about it in different ways.
But I Do agree that labeling one side or the other as Total un-Christian / or Christian is just dumb, there are always acceptions, although typically more liberals are not true Christian in their belief, and typically there tends to be a greater Christian presance in the right side.. but for one side to demonize or label ones religious values by their political affiliation and by that only is shallow and shows a lack of discernment. It happens on both sides… labeling always happens, political correctness never always works, and people no matter what will at some point be offended.
average james Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 8:09 pm
Falconx,
This is cool talking with you in measured tones.
Actually, you’ll find quite alot of reasoned argument on this site, some hyperbole and a good dose of humor to boot. Ocassionally some name calling and high tension gets things pretty toasty.
I gotta check out for the evening, have enjoyed the discussion and hope to see you again. I should return tommorrow, maybe tonight via Blackberry.
See ya later gang.
OldLefty Reply:
September 28th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
“But I dont see healthcare as a public service like the military, can you imagine if the military had stateside branches, or private contractors?… ”
…………….
But the military DOES have private contractors;
and they have wrought havoc in abu Ghraib and elsewhere in Iraq.
Many people believe THEY are a big reason we go to war.
I believe that the profit motive should not drive questions of war and peace or healthcare.
Falconx Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 4:48 am
Hehe Sorry old Lefty I should have elaborated. I meant private contractors for indavidual states in America. I know there are private contractors all over the place:) Gotta be more precise in what I’m saying
OldLefty Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 7:01 am
Falconx ,
My main point is that I personally don’t believe that decisions about health care or war belong in the realm of profit.
average james Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 10:47 am
Lefty,
I am firmly planted in your corner on this point too.
I would add Police, Fire, CDC, FCC, SEC, FDA, OSHA, TSA…..a few more too.
karthiks030977 Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 11:08 am
“My main point is that I personally don’t believe that decisions about health care or war belong in the realm of profit.”
My take:
Agree on the war front.
Dont quite agree on the healthcare front.
Who makes the profit is where I will probably find agreement with you.
I have no problem in my doctors or hospitals making profits when I go to them for healthcare.
Or for that matter pharma companies.
I am fairly sure by now that the healthcare industry is held to ransom by the Insurance Companies.
I believe it goes like this:
Insurance Company buys road 1, and lets you use it for a very nominal rate.
Then they buy road 2,do likewise.
Once the Insurance companies buy all the roads, so you have no way of moving about, your rates will no longer be nominal. They are going to be the monopoly price of the service.
If you dont like it, well, you drop off, and pay big time when you “need to use the road in an emergency”.
The status quo is bad because going uninsured is not a cost viable option.
I can accept that status quo sometimes (Example going without a private Jet isnt an option for me, but I can accept that given the costs of manufacturing,operating,maintaining Private Jets: I cant come up with such an example for ANY kind of healthcare, even the most (expected to be)expensive ones). Leads me to the conclusion that the prices are propped up high artificially, because Health Insurance Companies “own all the roads” that lead to health care.
EricG Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 11:17 am
Falconx -
See I’m a ’show me your data’ kind of person and this issue right here one where there really is no leg to stand on.
You can say you “know” about it, but I’ve never found anyone who can show me anything to back it up.
It’s always about how someone “feels” that people are taking advantage of the system and the government can do nothing to stop it.
There are no statistics, no reporting, no polls … nothing … to back this claim that it’s a huge waste of money or that huge amounts of services are abused.
It’s a plain myth.
In any system there a number of people who abuse it but most people who work in real hard facts agree that increasing both management funds and program access would help the system, not harm it.
And that’s what that argument you were making there amounts to.
Spending zero dollars of the public funds on helping the poor.
Call me crazy, but I think we should actually help people and not just give the whole idea lip-service in churches and in discussions.
average james Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 11:20 am
Karthicks,
I believe that clarification is in order.
I do not believe that decisions about war or health care PAYMENT belong in the realm of profit.
Of course physicians, nurses and hospitals need to make money. That is not what this is about, in my opinion.
karthiks030977 Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 11:34 am
“I do not believe that decisions about war or health care PAYMENT belong in the realm of profit.”
Agree with that fully.
And not clarifying that lets the Insurance Lobby make the argument “quality will come down when doctors nurses hospitals etc dont make money,leading to lower quality of service”.
The only credible sounding argument (against our view) that remains is what John Galt tried to say:
If more people are able to afford the same health care,with the above “lowered cost structure”, the demand will go up to the extent we will need rationing outside the market mechanism.
I dont buy that: but I will grant its possible.
(What I believe is, the requirement for rationing “small ticket items” (such as preventative care) will shift the demand away from “big ticket items”, and market supply (of service providers) will readjust to the changed demand curve. Overall, everyone’s better off due to better health levels achieved (it is proven I believe, that investment in preventative care works out to be lower cost,over the fullness of time, on average).
Well, nearly everyone is better off: Did I mention the Ins Companies will get it in the shorts?
John Galt Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 11:36 am
I dont buy that: but I will grant its possible.
Do you accept that if medical care were free, we would not have the supply to service the demand?
karthiks030977 Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 11:41 am
“Do you accept that if medical care were free”
No.
That is a big assumption.
People have stuff to do; Taking 4 hours out of my work schedule to go get a blood test or whatever isnt something I wanna do just because its free.
I dont go queue up for every freebie either.
John Galt Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 11:44 am
No.
That is a big assumption.
Interesting. Do you think you are in the minority or majority holding that view?
average james Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 11:58 am
I think that this is a bogus argument, a red herring.
I don’t use the cops excessively because they are free, I use them when I need them. I will not worry about whether or not I can pay them, I simply need them, I make the call and they respond to the need. This is also true in the preventive sense. I can call for a civil standby to prevent trouble.
There will always be abusers in any system, in any people group.
To let those individuals drive the agenda is weak.
karthiks030977 Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
“Do you think you are in the minority or majority holding that view?”
Depends:
1.Does the majority have something productive to do?
2.Where do I belong?(I believe I have something productive to do, but again, am discussing this during work hours,so…:-)).
Assuming 2. is true, and 1. is false,I would be in the minority.
If both are true,I would be in the majority.
Going by current status, with a higher than “normal” unemployment rate unfairly biases the stats against “how many will act as above”.
But you did miss my bottomline:
If people rush to obtain “free service” for service 1, the the demand for “service 2″(which isnt free) will go down. THe supply side will readjust itself.
As long as the costs of “free service” are transferred to the people availing of the free service, I see no problem.
John Galt Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
I think that this is a bogus argument, a red herring.
But it’s not. It’s very relevant. We all agree that we want to deliver medical care. And to as many people as possible. So supply and demand is critical in that structure.
I posit that the demand for medical care is higher than the supply. I happen to think the same of soda, pencils, tube socks and baseball tickets. Therefore, if we allow medical care to be dispensed with no price trigger, the demand will dwarf the supply.
What this means is that we ration. Conservatives would like to ration by price, liberals by fiat. I am not sure why you feel better about politicians deciding who gets care as opposed to the market.
John Galt Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
As long as the costs of “free service” are transferred to the people availing of the free service, I see no problem.
This would mean premiums, co-pays and deductibles? And that is not single payer, or universal health insurance or anything like what is being proposed.
average james Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
I’m still calling red herring on this.
Triag is a fact of life in every arena.
We all do it, everyday. It is a necessity.
To single this out in a health care argument is a red herring.
karthiks030977 Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
“This would mean premiums, co-pays and deductibles?”
That is 1 way to price it.
There are many ways to price and bundle this.
But as long as the price you pay includes these components,its good enough.
The Single Payer system must,will do this in 1 package; You abuse, it ought to get reflected in your price and not the next guy’s.
Everything the private Ins. firm does through “premiums co-pays and deductibles” is doable through a single payer system.
It is bound to be cost efficient, because there’s no for-profit entity trying to force system costs up “by buying up all the roads”.
karthiks030977 Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
John:
“I posit that the demand for medical care is higher than the supply. I happen to think the same of soda, pencils, tube socks and baseball tickets. Therefore, if we allow medical care to be dispensed with no price trigger, the demand will dwarf the supply.”
You are being facetious; I already pointed out: Not all care is “without price trigger”. Make preventative care disconnected from price triggers, empirical evidence says system costs go down.
Demand for “some healthcare items” shooting through the sky does NOT translate to demand for ALL medical care shooting through the sky. The supply side WILL adjust itself by PRICE. Not by fiat.
karthiks030977 Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
“I posit that the demand for medical care is higher than the supply.”
Break it down line by line(category of health care: preventative care,flu shot, major surgery,etc), and you will find its not quite true.
John Galt Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
There are many ways to price and bundle this.
But as long as the price you pay includes these components,its good enough.
The Single Payer system must,will do this in 1 package; You abuse, it ought to get reflected in your price and not the next guy’s.
If people have to pay for their care, then yes, it will work as you describe.
Make preventative care disconnected from price triggers, empirical evidence says system costs go down.
I have never seen this argument.
Break it down line by line(category of health care: preventative care,flu shot, major surgery,etc), and you will find its not quite true.
I think that anything “for free” will outstrip supply.
In short Karth, if you attach price controls to medical services, the demand will rationed by price and you are right, the system would work. I have to point out, however, that is NOT the goal of the Democrats. The whole point, the WHOLE point, is that everyone in America is covered, totally and without additional out of pocket expense.
In short, no price point.
karthiks030977 Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
“I have to point out, however, that is NOT the goal of the Democrats.”
That may be true. That is not my understanding of Single Payer: its not colored by who presents it; If Obama (or anyone for that matter) presents to me something called Single Payer, that doesnt attach prices to the services used,I wont accept it; Single Payer to me is just about eliminating the middleman, isnt about eliminating my bill.
“I think that anything “for free” will outstrip supply.”
You missed my point again: I intentionally left it subtle here.
First things first:
1.Individual items for free may/may not outstrip supply. If I get cosmetic surgery for free, I may avail of it, just to improve my horrible looks. But I may not be so inclined to avail of a free ,say,vasectomy(would beat the point of the cosmetic surgery).
2.When you aggregate different category items together, you aggregate them because they are serviced by the same servicepeople: same doctors, same hospitals etc. So, your “outstrips supply” comes into picture only when the demand for both takes place simultaneously. Once you get into that, you get into time distribution, and correlation; If you budget for the “buffer” based on extrapolation from an individual item of high demand, you will end up underestimating your capacity.
John Galt Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
That may be true. That is not my understanding of Single Payer: its not colored by who presents it; If Obama (or anyone for that matter) presents to me something called Single Payer, that doesnt attach prices to the services used,I wont accept it; Single Payer to me is just about eliminating the middleman, isnt about eliminating my bill.
Fair enough.
I could support if people have to pay.
Now, we need to do research and validate what the system is that has been proposed.
But that’s for another day–got stuff to do. See ya.
Falconx Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
Wow!!! SO much has gone on since last night lol!
I dont even know where to comment now! wow! but in any case… i need clarification on what you mean by red herring James, im unfamiliar with that term…
And to Respond to Eric G’s response to me:
I see what you mean, but i know of people who will sit on an unemployment package and will never go apply for a new job cause they “claim” they cant find work! True we are in a recession, but still many dont try very hard either! and sadly they make more money off the government handout than i do! I dont think thats fair… if I was a sleezy person that just took free handouts that i didnt earn, and sit on that without going out and tying for a new job… than i should just quit my job and take that free check too!… and I agree with your last comment , on we should do something other than just talk about it! Lets do something that actually changes something, and have some change! I say we adopt Australia’s tactic on giving out welfare! They Force you to have 5 applications filled out every time you come to recieve your check! Thats it, you have 5 applications you get a check…. you dont have applications you dont get money…. You see, here in America we send it ot them in the mail…. They get free money with NO REAL ACCOUNTABILITY…… you want stats you want statistics…I cant im not a pollster. ill tell you what I see.. i saw a family that was better dressed than i was… their kids wearing designer clothing and shoes…. and then when they went to the checkout line in the grocery store… what did they bust out…. FOOD STAMPS!!!! It is out there its bull crap, and i dont want this lets just throw money at people”" mentality! Its terrible! If I have to scrape for every penny I make. They should be able to fill out 5 applications and stand in line to get their check…. Thats what should be done! P.s. there is one form of accountability .. there are agents that inspect the lives of people using welfare… but they will tell you first hand it is increadibly abused… Unfortunately theres too much politics on the news and not this kind of stuff… so nobody runs polls to find facts on it…. they are to busy praising Obama and slamming fox news (left) Or to busy talking about Acorn and Obama’s Liberal policies and the inconsistancy of the liberal left ( Right)
In any case When i SEE stuff like this… and I also SEE other abuses It puts a dent in my confidence that when we have this new healthcare plan, that we will stop the corruption….. Heres an Idea… lets stop corruption that we have NOW… then when that is obviously taken care of, lets talk about expansion of these government handout policies. :) it just makes sense to me!
karthiks030977 Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Falcon:
You stated your point well.
My counter is:
1.In a by and large free market capitalist system, there is always incentive to achieve, produce, create value.
2.We directly/indirectly socialize “select items”: Example agriculture, defense, and quite a few others; Capitalism doesnt need the entire economy to be capitalist, to thrive. We ARE a mixed economy, always have been since 1932, whether we admit it or not.
3.In specific, the people living off Food Stamps, well, they could be ineligible in terms of earnings(and getting them on account of corruption), or they might be choosing to be “slackers/bottom feeders”. They will exist even in a Fully Capitalist Economy.Wasting resources to trap them is being “penny wise,pound foolish”: There is hardly any bang for buck in “controlling that”.
4.Finally, please note that even the USA has had very limited exposure to Free Market Capitalism; Europe had gone through it more, during the Industrial Revolution; The London smog is one of many incidents in history that highlight one thing: left unregulated, the Free Market is not likely to be more efficient than a mixed economy, and is more likely to be less efficient.
So, while your concepts are well intended, and I respect them(same way I respect Galt’s),please note the fact that unregulated free markets have ALWAYS resulted in people pushing the cost of their efforts on to others, against their individual freedoms, and therefore,unregulated free market capitalism IS the biggest affront to freedom.
EricG Reply:
September 30th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Falconx –
See I asked for at least some basis for your statements not because I want you show me what an awesome pollster you are but because I see that you are making assertions about people and about the system but I think you should have something to back this up rather than raw conviction and your feelings toward the less fortunate.
I like the Australia idea as well.
That sounds good.
But this notion that everyone is lazy and abusing the system is just false. Nobody can back that up with anything but “my sister told me” or “I see it everyday” but nobody can do any better than that.
And they tons of studies on welfare and poverty through non-profit agencies usually centered on small populations.
You said “sleazy person” in reference to someone on welfare that you don’t know and don’t know their circumstances.
I personally think better of people.
The sleaze of this world are mainly running around FOX News and talk radio. Lies are sleazy.
Being hard-up and needing help is not.
One day you might need some assistance, and you’ll be glad for the system on that day.
But I agree with you that we should guard against fraud in the system with smart policies.
September 28th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
.. “there are agents that inspect the lives of people using welfare… but they will tell you first hand it is increadibly abused… ”
…………….
Wow!!
Who pray tell are these inspectors?
Actually:
Welfare rules now:
Require most recipients to work within two years of receiving assistance,
Limit most assistance to five years total, and…
Let states establish “family caps” to deny additional benefits to mothers for childen born while the mothers are already on public assistance.
States and even counties are designing their own programs for the poor, picking and choosing from approaches they hope will get results.
But the evidence suggests that getting the vast majority of welfare recipients into jobs will be difficult. While two thirds of welfare recipients are either on assistance only for a short time, or on-and-off, the remaining third have proven impervious to prior attempts to find them lasting work. For some, the problems are concrete and potentially addressable: lack of child care or transportation. For others, notably those who have never held a job, the problems are harder to tackle: poor health or lack of skills, desire or confidence.
Should we have people to inspect the lives of millionaires and billionaires using corporate welfare?, or have we been busy slamming the corporate media and promoting minor stories like ACORN, while giving short shrift to the abuses like:
Wife swapping and underage prostitution with Eric Prince and the Blackwater Xe
Tom delay killing a bill to stop the sex trade in the Marianna Islands
ArmorGroup’s abuse at the Afgan embassy,
Money doled out to Parsons corporation, the rape case with KBR\….on and on.
September 29th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
I see what you mean, but i know of people who will sit on an unemployment package and will never go apply for a new job cause they “claim” they cant find work! True we are in a recession, but still many dont try very hard either! and sadly they make more money off the government handout than i do! ~ Falconx
In my state, it’s $200 a week. You make less than $800 a month? Doubtful.
Falconx Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
actually i do :) I am a college graduate with a BA … and i do make less, cause it is hard to find a job! :) … sad but true… if you would like to be benevolant and help the poor :) aka ME please do! hahahaha
Falconx Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
p.s. I am looking for a new job, and should have this one secured in 2 months… then i will be making a bit more :)
Falconx Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Hrmm those are serious Abuses! I dint know about them and its good to hear!Im especially curious about TOm Deley killing that Bill… the sex trade INFURIATES me……. I will be looking into that…
but that does not drive away.. the same idea that I have stated.. that this needs to be looked into more … read my latest post for more detail on what i think.. i think it responds more of what i feel on this topic and dont want to re- re repeat myself,,, as i accidentally posted it twice lol
To answer your question on the inspectors, I very well might have given them the improper title oldlefty… I will get back to you asap on what they do and their officail title:)
Falconx Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
Double P.S. I have 50,000 in college debt…. lol anyone think i should apply for some welfare LOL :)
average james Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
A VERY close person in my life is an eligibility worker, MediCal and food stamps.
Her take is a little different than yours Falconx.
You have to jump through the hoops and produce all manner of proof on property, dependents, medical history, all bank accounts, trust funds, all sorts of things. There’s a lot of hardship going around.
If cheats are found (usually unintentional), the penalties are severe and all monies must be repaid.
I’m sorry but the abuse is simply not as much as the ‘why should I help someone else’ crew would have you believe.
There are rotten apples in all people groups. To demand the weeding out of every one before moving forward to help those in need is not only impossible, but causes potential damage to those who need it now.
Hyperbole is a favorite tool of the conservative right, the left is also guilty, but to a lesser degree these days. All this government waste, fraud …..blah blah blah. A distraction technique that has been honed to a fine skill by the poorbashers.
BTW-a red herring is a distraction technique, a false lead, sorta like a snipe hunt.
Falconx Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 6:44 pm
Ahh thanks for the clarification on the Red herring!
Well thats interesting. i wouldnt call it a right winger thing.. i didnt get this from any fox news, or any radio talk show… this is personal experience, dont bash the right wingers on this one quite yet lol :)
And how can i be a poor basher! Im freakin poor lol! :) haha this was more my personal thoughts and experiances, and have had other people comment and feel the same way!.. whats funny is their not republicans … so dont tak this judgement ont eh right wingers yet lol :)
But your close friend brings good facts, thanks for the info!
average james Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
Ya know Falconx,
I had a very similar experience to the one you described.
I was in the market counting change to get bread and milk to bring home to the family, literally.
These well dressed people were in front of me in line with a basket of groceries. They paid in food stamps. I kept my mouth shut. In the parking lot as I was backing out my 77 Datsun pickup I almost ran into them as they passed in a very much newer and nicer automobile.
That’s when I started with the foul language.
I have since come to realize that I have no idea what their circumstance was, and am in no position to cast aspersions onto others in such a way.
For all I know they had borrowed the car to attend a funeral or a wedding. Maybe his back is messed up or she recntly had heart surgery. I simply have no way of knowing, nor am I ever given the right to judge others so harshly without knowledge of the true condition.
I try to avoid the judgement game, and the generalization game. However, the consistent pattern of decrying social programs, which cater to the disadvataged ( by definition ), is the territory of the conservative right-wing, politically. It just is.
I did not mean to offend you Falconx, rather to warn or make you aware of the tricks that so many of these on the right play.
If you are not already aware, beware.
Wolves in sheep’s clothing is what they are. Unfortunately many are honest seeming, churhgoing folk. That just makes it all the more hideous to me, as a Christian.
Falconx Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 7:41 pm
Know this, If i see a policy that is not Biblical, it is noted, thus my origional statemant, I agree with a lot of the ideas that liberals put forward, and many times the heart behind them… even many put forward by Ted Kennedy, and Barak Obama. But to be honest the heart of the Left typicaly is more anti Christian than most. It This is just fact. And by no Mean was I offended! lol but i appreciate your concern. But for laughs … :) i take it you are a Christian as you stated…. this will make you laugh! :) ( Note: if you dont know about the Bible, you might not get this)
Watch this it made me laugh: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csYBoppLokY
Please comment about the Video in your response :)
Granted there are times when I would suspect foul play and there is none…. but it still leaves me with a notian of…. hrmm looks REEEAlly fishy….. seems Reeeeally lame that someone with that much apparant money would b accepting food stamps… but you right I am not to judge them, And I DONT personally if i ran into them and engaged in a conversation I would be respectfull. But, if I was a person with the power to investigate… I would.. cause if it looks like a fish and smells like a fish… prolly is a fish… and if we inspect and it is not so.. than I will be the first to apologize if someone is offended!
average james Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 8:05 pm
Pretty funny stuff.
Hillary gets the prize for a VERSE.
They all went with longer passages or discourses, funny.
I like John 3:17 and 1 John 4:7,8 and 1 Cor 13:all–as some faves.
I would have loved to see one of the candidates say Levitcus 13:40,41. another personal favorite.
Hey when you get a chance check out TBNN -
tominthebox.blogspot.com
Check out all of their different articles, they are some pretty funny people.
September 29th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
Dually Noted Karthiks!
Im not 100% up to date on the England and their history of Capitolism to be quite honest, and granted there are valid points in what you say! But that does not take away the resolve of what was earlier stated, we can still make solid checks on free handouts without it being that bad…. let me give you an example. and this is encorperated in rebuttle to your point #3 There is a definate bang for buck in getting this taken care of…. but there is an interesting twist in what you said in #3 that i also want to point out…
ok first off if we take a person who once was freeloading and sucking a LOT of money mroe than I make, and probalby the equivalant of 5 people’s taxes right into their pockets…( that is an estmation not fact) lets say hen they take those 5 applications every time they recieve a check, and low and behold this person lands a Job! Congrats Now wer have free’s those 5 people’s takes, ad instead of going into a free loading slumbag, we have now created 6 tax payers that are benefiting our economy instead of crippling, + we now created some class in that person, morals are good, maybee even character developed? who knows! there is a lot of good to come from it! it is a Win Win on all sides…
Now to encorperate this policy we would be taking those government employee’s on the ‘hunt”for these freeloaders and making them the ones who help find available jobs! this is a good thing! instead of unsuccesfful tracking of these people ( who have TONS of loopholes to jump through, these freeloaders are experts of working the system) we have no dodging available… we dont just take their word for it, that they have been looking for jobs…we KNOW they are cause they turned in the applications and we distributed them to the employers ourselves! its great thing…
now to further look at the idea of this not having enough bang for its own buck….. well… i think it will in this case… it will save a lo of taxpayers money… but in the bigger picture, i hope for all the liberals sake it has bang for its buck.. Because in Obama’s adress to congress IT WILL, because the loss of corruption and the revenue generated from the rooting out of corruption will make it affordable and Not add to out National deficit…. double standeard… i hope not! Which brings me back to my origional point… If this rooting out of corruption is supposed to save BILLIONS and maybee Trillions of debt……. Why not test it on the smaller scale on the programs like welfare…. to see if it works…..?
September 29th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Dually Noted Karthiks!
Im not 100% up to date on the England and their history of Capitolism to be quite honest, and granted there are valid points in what you say! But that does not take away the resolve of what was earlier stated, we can still make solid checks on free handouts without it being that bad…. let me give you an example. and this is encorperated in rebuttle to your point #3 There is a definate bang for buck in getting this taken care of…. but there is an interesting twist in what you said in #3 that i also want to point out…
ok first off if we take a person who once was freeloading and sucking a LOT of money mroe than I make, and probalby the equivalant of 5 people’s taxes right into their pockets…( that is an estmation not fact) lets say hen they take those 5 applications every time they recieve a check, and low and behold this person lands a Job! Congrats Now wer have free’s those 5 people’s takes, ad instead of going into a free loading slumbag, we have now created 6 tax payers that are benefiting our economy instead of crippling, + we now created some class in that person, morals are good, maybee even character developed? who knows! there is a lot of good to come from it! it is a Win Win on all sides…
Now to encorperate this policy we would be taking those government employee’s on the ‘hunt”for these freeloaders and making them the ones who help find available jobs! this is a good thing! instead of unsuccesfful tracking of these people ( who have TONS of loopholes to jump through, these freeloaders are experts of working the system) we have no dodging available… we dont just take their word for it, that they have been looking for jobs…we KNOW they are cause they turned in the applications and we distributed them to the employers ourselves! its great thing…
now to further look at the idea of this not having enough bang for its own buck….. well… i think it will in this case… it will save a lo of taxpayers money… but in the bigger picture, i hope for all the liberals sake it has bang for its buck.. Because in Obama’s adress to congress IT WILL, because the loss of corruption and the revenue generated from the rooting out of corruption will make it affordable and Not add to out National deficit…. double standeard… i hope not! Which brings me back to my origional point… If this rooting out of corruption is supposed to save BILLIONS and maybee Trillions of debt……. Why not test it on the smaller scale on the programs like welfare…. to see if it works…..? before we gamble wiith this idea and possibl LOOSE BILLIONS MORE!?? it seems logical to me :)
Falconx Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
sorry apparantly it sent twice… My comp is messed up
OldLefty Reply:
September 30th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
Falconx,
I never said “we set up Sadam on purpose to bring him in just to kill him later .
It is a well known fact that we supported Saddam, and that Rumfeld got him the the loans to buy the wmds.
Many defense contractors made a lot of money with him and we supported him in the Iran/Iraq war. (While supplying TOW missiles and intel to Iran, to funnel the money to the Contras.
This is well known and documented.
There is no evidence that “WE ARE GIVING A COUNTRY A CHANCE FOR FREEDOM!!!!
They said the same thing when they overthrew the democratically elected Mossadegh of Iran and replaced him with the Shah and his brutal SAVAK, we said the same thing after the elections in Viet Nam…before the war heated up, and we said the same thing when we overthrew the democratically Salvador Allende and set up the brutal P1nochet in Chile.
We said that as we supported dictators in Pakistan OVER India, who took aid from the USSR.
They (the Iraqis) voted for candidates that the Bush administration gave protection to, while other candidates were killed.
They are now an Islamic Republic, more closely aligned with Iran.
The Iraqi people are so grateful to have raw sewage, in their water, foreigners taking their jobs, cluster bombs, women now under the veil, the killing of Christians, 4 million refugees,…..
You need to look up,
Iraq’s Unspeakable Crime: Mothers Pimping Daughters
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1883696,00.ht
Or the conservative Ecomomist from 2003,
Let’s all go to the yard sale ; , The Economist called it a “A Free Marketers Utopia”, Many Iraqis called it “stealing”.
Or employees of Aegis Defence Services, who made a “trophy” video appearing to show security guards in Baghdad randomly shooting Iraqi civilians has sparked two investigations after it was posted on the internet, the Sunday Telegraph can reveal.
Or
In 2003, The Economist called it a “A Free Marketers Utopia”, and a “Yard Sale”.
Many Iraqis called it “stealing”.
Iraq’s Unspeakable Crime: Mothers Pimping Daughters
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1883696,00.html
I’m sorry, but you seem to be real heavy in flowery propaganda, and light on facts, This is where I get frustrated!
OldLefty Reply:
September 30th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
Falconx ,
I never said “we set up Sadam on purpose to bring him in just to kill him later .
It is a well known fact that we supported Saddam, and that Rumfeld got him the the loans to buy the wmds.
Many defense contractors made a lot of money with him and we supported him in the Iran/Iraq war. (While supplying TOW missiles and intel to Iran, to funnel the money to the Contras.
This is well known and documented.
There is no evidence that “WE ARE GIVING A COUNTRY A CHANCE FOR FREEDOM!!!!
They said the same thing when they overthrew the democratically elected Mossadegh of Iran and replaced him with the Shah and his brutal SAVAK, we said the same thing after the elections in Viet Nam…before the war heated up, and we said the same thing when we overthrew the democratically Salvador Allende and set up the brutal P1nochet in Chile.
We said that as we supported dictators in Pakistan OVER India, who took aid from the USSR.
They (the Iraqis) voted for candidates that the Bush administration gave protection to, while other candidates were killed.
They are now an Islamic Republic, more closely aligned with Iran.
The Iraqi people are so grateful to have raw sewage, in their water, foreigners taking their jobs, cluster bombs, women now under the veil, the killing of Christians, 4 million refugees,…..
You need to look up,
Iraq’s Unspeakable Crime: Mothers Pimping Daughters
I cannot get links through
Or the conservative Ecomomist from 2003,
Let’s all go to the yard sale ; , The Economist called it a “A Free Marketers Utopia”, Many Iraqis called it “stealing”.
If this goes through twice, it is because of the links
karthiks030977 Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
“lets say hen they take those 5 applications every time they recieve a check, and low and behold this person lands a Job! Congrats Now wer have free’s those 5 people’s takes, ad instead of going into a free loading slumbag, we have now created 6 tax payers that are benefiting our economy instead of crippling,”
Falcon:
You’re trivializing what it takes to create jobs.
Jobs arent created by handwaving or magic-wand waving.
By the way, your argument is flawed on 1 more aspect:the 6th job in your hypothesis is beneficial to the economy mainly because it adds to the GDP, NOT because it adds to the Gov Exchequer; The 6th job has some value, the market will figure out the fair value in the long run, but the value the market ascribed today is its value today, its proper accounting.
Back to the original point…2 things:
1.The freeing of taxes may/may not create new jobs, may/may not create value. On average it will add value. But the average argument is just an average argument. Its not universally applicable.
For example, on average,subsidizing is bad. So why do you apply subsidies to agriculture? Because you know the social cost of food prices going sky high; The social cost overwhelms the good effects of free market capitalism so much that the net effect is more of a disaster.
Please use the same approach to value EVERY subsidy:Including the “free loader” subsidy.
A lazy person will be lazy whether he has to work for his food or not; He’s more likely to resort to crime if he has no free lunch. So, against my wishes, I’ll rather let him have the free lunch than having to watch my back more often.
2.Re Corruption: I maintain there is no bang for buck in addressing corruption on this issue. There is (IMHO) far more bang for buck in assessing corruption in defense contracts, for example.
Falconx Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
OK dually noted, especially on rather have free handouts than a gun on your back.. good point,… but I am NOT saying we get rid of it… therefore you wont have to worry bout it… I AM saying Regulate.. and still make them turn in apps… there are jobs out there…. Im applying yet again today! in 20 min actually… you have to look! … Im sorry though im a little bit uninformed on your abreviations…. i was not a Political Science major, I was a theatre major lol… But i do try to be informed as much as possible!
But, ok then you must agree, based on what your saying that the Obama-care is not going to pay for itself based on what you say…?
karthiks030977 Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
“the Obama-care is not going to pay for itself based on what you say”
Anything in the world can pay for itself only if there is a price tag on it :-).
So if Obama is planning to wave a magic wand and “make his schemes pay for themselves”, I will just give my usual smirk of disbelief.
Falconx Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
As do I when he claims “It will not add one Dollar to the deficate”:)
average james Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 7:35 pm
Yah,
I believe he has made an overpromise again.
Maybe it would become deficit neutral, in about
70 years.
Of course without the public option, it should cost next to nuthin.
Greed wins. Corporations win. Patients, who are human beings lose.
I still hold to human beings over cost, whatever the cost.
Falconx Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 8:02 pm
Thats a big if on the money side.. 70 years?… Lets hope that prediction is accurate :)
anywhoo yah I think taking care of everyone is a good thing too…. but I do believe it WILL lower the quality of healthcare, there will be longer lines and lots of death will occur from doctors who are not incentivised… there will be less qualified doctors, and less doctors in general….
And HOLD on :) i know everyone is waiting to bash me saying OH THATS RIGHT WING SCARE TACTICs…. Well, no, I have Family who live in Sweden and have lived there for 25 years or so, and they say that it is not a great thing.. doctors are not good.. Granted in sweden everyone is covered… but thats because they FLush all their bums out of their country…. they are all pushed into other nations, because they have an elitist view, and DIRECTLY look down on , and snub their noses on the poor/bums….. SO it might work if we were an elite society only….
anywhoo…. back on the moral issue of it all… if you value Human life over the dollar…. are you pro or con the Iraq war?……Because I say it was awesome!!!… We took out a dictator! freed a people!! and stop ongoing torture on a rampant scale!!!! …. we went into loosing money for it… so then why is the liberal world who seems to be so beevolant.. hate that war???… Democracy is being established… the people have voted, they are training their own forces… they WANT freedom and we are giving them a chance…. i dont understand it… this was benevolant?? was it not….How was America founded…. Fighting a supposed Loosing war that would never work……. and DONT give me the argument it was for oil… if it was, wheres all that money??? why are we in deficate and not rolling in cash?? and Why am I paying $3.15 at the pump? common… granted there was an ooil scare that happened that was fabricated by oil companies…. but we STILL didnt do it for OIL… were not getting any… correct me if I am wrong :)
Sorry rabbit trail…..
average james Reply:
September 29th, 2009 at 9:37 pm
Falconx,
I am a pro-life liberal.
The Afghanistan war is warranted, like Japan in WW11.
The Iraq war was completely uncalled for and a violation of what this country stands for.
How can you impose democracy ?
We went in on lies propigated from the top down.
There was no Alqueda connection. Saddam was non-religious and BinLaden had a beef with that. No AlQueda in Iraq, till we got there and furnished them with a reason for being there. We removed a stablizing force in the region, who had managed to keep Iran at bay these many years. We have tortured human beings. Aren’t we the good guys who liberate others from this sort of evil. Torture is wrong no matter what. Nothing will ever make torture right. There were no WMDs, even Colin Powell left after realizing the untruthful ways the administration was operating.
We attacked a sovereign nation, unprovoked, not a defensive measure, why ? Because Saddam was a dictator, a despot, a murderer, aterrible man.
There is quite a long list of dictators in this world, shall we go take them all out ? Is this not democratic imperialism ? Iraq has zero to do with american freedom. Bush43 left Afghanistan behind, where the enemy is, and went into Iraq. A bunch of his buddy’s got lucrative no bid contracts out of the deal, billions worth.
Lots of lives were lost, the worst part of the whole sordid affair.
It is so wrong, the Iraq war.
I believe history will show that Iraq was one of the worst times in America’s history.
Falconx Reply:
September 30th, 2009 at 4:38 am
All I can say is I 100% disagree with what you said about that last response.. And we’ll leave it at that. i dont want to get it too dicey! you are allowed your opinion as i am, but I completely disagree.
karthiks030977 Reply:
September 30th, 2009 at 7:38 am
Falcon:
“you are allowed your opinion as i am, but I completely disagree”
ANd here’s the problem:
If opinions shall dictate what is the right thing to do, more people voted for Obama, more people voted for him knowing he was going to do Insurance Reform in a form similar to what he IS trying to do;
Why is your “disagreement with the majority” holier than AJ’s disagreement with the “majority”?
After all, when AJ disagreed with the majority(As did I), you did force the bloody Iraq war and its costs on us.
OldLefty Reply:
September 30th, 2009 at 7:40 am
Falconx said,
”. but I do believe it WILL lower the quality of healthcare, there will be longer lines and lots of death will occur from doctors who are not incentivised… there will be less qualified doctors, and less doctors in general”….
What is your evidence for that?…because EVERYBODY knows somebody who lives somewhere that confirms their view.
Meanwhile, ask yourself why, The National Coalition on Health Care has for members:
The American Academy of Family Physicians, American Academy of Pediatrics, American College of Cardiology, American College of Emergency Physicians, American College of Nurse Midwives, American College of Surgeons, American Cancer Society, American Heart Association, American Lung Association, Easter Seals, League of Women Voters, Maternity Center Association, National Multiple Sclerosis Society, Presbyterian Church (USA), Salvation Army, United Methodist Church, US Conference of Catholic Bishops
Most doctors among my family and friends support single payer or the public option.
Every dire threat from the insurance lobbyists actually reflect the conditions under the status quo right now:
~ US NEWS and WORLD REPORT
Uninsured More Likely to Die From Cancer Following Diagnosis
~ Businessweek
The Best Medical Care In The U.S.
How Veterans Affairs transformed itself — and what it means for the rest of us
~ Businessweek
The Doctor Will See You—In Three Months
.” In reality, both data and anecdotes show that the American people are already waiting as long or longer than patients living with universal health-care systems.
As for, !!!… “We took out a dictator!”
What makes you think so?
That’s what they said about Afganistan in the eighties AND it’s what they said when they helped install Saddam.
With the violence, corruption, the ethnic cleansing, how would you know if there was democracy or just a new dictator?
The same people who took him out supported and armed him for years and years.
There is a disturbing pattern of setting up and supporting dictators, while the people suffer, then taking them down, when they get uppity, while the people suffer, then either ignoring the results or setting up a new dictator, while the people suffer…..
Unfortunately, we have a long history of a$$uming the desired results and never looking back.
As for the oil, the Iraqi people fought back…
Look at Paul Bremer’s attempt to turn Iraq’s natural resources over to foreign corporations, and you will see why the insurgency probably started and why he skedaddled out of there.
Then you also have to answer the question; why didn’t they run on bringing down one of the many dictators in the world…..they were planning it since the nineties?
karthiks030977 Reply:
September 30th, 2009 at 7:54 am
Falcon
“but I do believe it WILL lower the quality of healthcare, there will be longer lines and lots of death will occur from doctors who are not incentivised”
Doctors are not incentivized NOW.
The insurance company pockets a giant share of their earnings all the time; And they have “no way out”.
Also:
Your beliefs are just beliefs; Until you give able to demonstrate a significant likelihood of your belief working out in reality, you’re just another statistic in “RIGHT WING SCARE TACTICs”
Falconx Reply:
September 30th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
1st:
Karthiks….. when did I Ever have Holier than thou attitude in anything i said?? all I ever did was state my personal opinion, facts on the bible (when we were still even talking about prayer, which was the origional topic) and personal testimonies. I NEVER said my opinion or life experiances were better or more solid than yours, so please dont give me a label that I never brought on myself or smear my person.
Second, I have only been listning to facts! And if I hear facts I will take them into note…. I dont go solely on feelings… thank you very much, I am not some idiot to be swayed by only emotions, granted there are some times when I am, but i typically try to keep my feet on the ground.
3rd… doctors are incentivised by their Salaries! if this healthcare goes on, it will push private doctors in a bit of a pinch!.. to what degree I am not sure, but you cannot deney that it will. that is not a scare tactic, its logical….
4th, what Reality do you have that has been proved Karthiks… you say “Until you give able to demonstrate a significant likelihood of your belief working out in reality, you’re just another statistic in “RIGHT WING SCARE TACTICs”…
well the same is applied to Liberal views… us Republicans dont have titles for it like “LEFT WING PIE IN THE SKY TACTICS… or anything like that…. its just your view is the same, I think you just assume it will all work out… like our last big Bailout… whOOPs… i dont think its doing what it was supposed to, and liberals said before it was all gonna be peachy, its gonna make new jobs, no It killed old jobs and replaced them, and Oh it will keep unemplyment below 10%… sorry …. there will be no pork barrel spending….. Wow dont get me started on the millions of dollars put into and endangered RAT in Nancy Pullosi’s district… and oh yeah! forgot to mention it will cost 2 Trillion more than we origionally projected… I could go on and on, but I feel it will only upset the libs and piss everyone off. and I dont want to do that.. Basically all this to say my faith in Obama’s Big Pushes are a little hindered, there is no scare tactic in all that, only facts…. I appreciate your passion karthiks, but lets not label me as one to be only motivated by fear by lies and deciet….. Obama EARNED my skepticism, I was up for Change too! I would have loved to see his stimulous work….. but it honestly is not coming close to doing what it said it would do! AM I an OBama Hater… NO…. I look at the facts of what is happening…
man this is time consuming to argue…. lol
ok
and Old Lefty, Once again you have your ducks in a row with your facts, and once again, i do not have them on hand nor have the time to pull them up, I wish I could bring out all my facts that I have or remembered the names and companies and doctors that agree with my side… but i honestly cant at the moment
And On the Iraq thing…..All what you brought up is a conspiracy theories…. Like “we set up Sadam on purpose to bring him in just to kill him later… sounds like a tom clancey to me. While that is possible, I dont see facts saying that yes we did all this on purpose! there are so many points to bring up that it would take too long and you will ony write a million more opinion statements to fight it…Basically you are Completely entrenched in your views and I disagree with most of them, I dont believe it was all planned out! A little too much Michael Moore, that is all dare i say it “Left Wing Scare Tactics” Lol you guys have it too :) Dude, your response to what I said brings up a moral point, but an inconsistancy in Liberal thought… I dont get this one bit…. My view on why the war in Iraq could be considered WILDLY liberal!…. but for some reason the libs dont embrace this benevolant side of it… you missed the mark on this completely… WE ARE GIVING A COUNTRY A CHANCE FOR FREEDOM!!!! They are fighting hard! they voted under threat of DEATH from the terrorists, WOMEN voted, are you kidding me??? this should be a liberal happy day! I dont get it, but instead because of the absolute HATE of anything Bush related… you look at the whole thing and scorn!???? i dont get it… The Iraqui people are trying so hard, and are SOOO grateful to be out of Saddam’s regime…. I dont get it…. could someone explain why Libs dont like this??? without some conspiricy theory reason that is NOT proven… its emotionsally charged, as what I was accused of earlier… Ugh this is where frustration sets in… so I will take a step back and get my cool before typing another word.
September 29th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
Falconx,
I appreciate your candor and passion.
Iraq was a terrible miscarriage of military force, in my opinion. That being said, some good can come of it.
Sure it is a good thing that elections have been held and that women are being afforded more freedoms etc..
They declared a national holiday the day we pulled our foces out of their cities, people in the streets rejoicing ! Rejoicing over the fact that we are closer to being all the way out of THEIR country. I digress.
Some good is and will continue to(hopefully) come out of it.
This in no way excuses the bad behavior of our elected officials that put us their in the first place. My opinion.
By the way, there are new threads everyday on this site.
Feel free to jump in.
Did you get a chance to check out TBNN ? Funny, scroll down the right side of the site and pick a topic. I think you will laugh.
Anywho, I believe that you want what’s best for the country, as do I. The difference is in how we get there.
That’s exactly why I enjoy these discussions so much.
A lull in work means a chance to compare thoughts and observations on this site, my personal favorite blog site.
Glad to meet you, online.
Falconx Reply:
September 30th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
It was a pleasure Meeting you Online too, James, I do need to go and look at that site.
I disagree as usual… Its Politics, and their will always be hardened, and fact backed disagreement.
I dont believe I will be commenting too much more on this site though, the origional title is what caught my eye, when it comes to Biblical stuff, that is where I know my stuff, I am not as much of a politician:) I have my beliefs and i believe them true, but this is obviously a liberal site, and there will only be 100% disagreeing no matter what facts are put out….
Again I just saw some increadible Biblical inconsistancies when i read this line of Blog, and felt compelled as a Evangelical Christian to point out the true context of what was being said. and making sure the Bible wasnt being twisted. As it has been so much in the past. And being so informed I thought i would have something to affer that no party should disagree with, but when the convo turned into all politics…. I dunno it seemed less and less interesting, and turned more toward, “well this poll says this… and He said that, and this fact clearly shows that…… and You cant think that because the refutes that…. ugh it can go on, and topics change so fast that we forgot the origional point of argument… it turned me off a bit… I would rather have a sit down convo with one of any of you and talk instead of being the only republican talking, and having anything i said so quicly bombarded I feel i have to defend everything i say, and by the time i defend it the topic has already changed… its a bit frustrating… so yah, prolly not gonna chat on this too much more…. if you want a one on one talk/debate…. hit me up on facebook where there is an equal playing field… My name is John Henry Helms III….Untill then CIO. I’ll pray for the Libs :)
average james Reply:
September 30th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
Hey John,
check back in once in awhile.
There’s lots of conservatives and moderates on this site. Lot’s of discussions with differing viewpoints.
God and spirituality are just about my favorite topics of discussion too. Take care brother.
God is good, all the time.
Seeyaround
September 30th, 2009 at 4:00 pm