Bryan Fischer Of American Family Association Says “No More Muslims In The US Military”
Bryan Fischer, the “Director of Issues Analysis” for the American Family Association, claiming that Nidal Hasan is “a Muslim who was motivated by jihadist impulses,” and that he wrote blog entries last year that “attracted the attention of the FBI,” says Muslims should not be allowed to serve. (h/t RightWingWatch). Shouldn’t the bigger question be why the FBI didn’t take action if it believed someone was a threat? Not to Bryan Fischer and the AFA:
It it is time, I suggest, to stop the practice of allowing Muslims to serve in the U.S. military. The reason is simple: the more devout a Muslim is, the more of a threat he is to national security. Devout Muslims, who accept the teachings of the Prophet as divinely inspired, believe it is their duty to kill infidels. [Last week's] massacre is living proof. And yesterday’s incident is not the first fragging incident involving a Muslim taking out his fellow U.S. soldiers.
Of course, most U.S. Muslims don’t shoot up their fellow soldiers. Fine. As soon as Muslims give us a foolproof way to identify their jihadis from their moderates, we’ll go back to allowing them to serve. You tell us who the ones are that we have to worry about, prove you’re right, and Muslims can once again serve. Until that day comes, we simply cannot afford the risk. You invent a jihadi-detector that works every time it’s used, and we’ll welcome you back with open arms.
Any anti-Muslim bigotry here?
In fact, the more devout a Muslim is, the more likely he is to lie to you through his teeth, since lying to the infidel to advance the cause of Islam is commended, not just permitted, in the Koran.
It’s time we all got over the nonsense that all cultures and religions are equally valid or worthy. They most certainly are not. While Christianity is a religion of peace, founded by the Prince of Peace, Islam is a religion of war and violence, founded by a man who routinely chopped the heads off his enemies, had sex with nine-year old girls, and made his wealth plundering merchant caravans.
In time of war you must profile those who are among the same nation for which you are fighting. There are many sympathizers towards their own nation or people who live in America and all parts of the world. A nation must be very careful during war times. FDR rounded up Japanese who were living here during WWII and put them in an internment camp for the duration of the war.
You just have to be very careful.
burqa Reply:
November 9th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
“In time of war you must profile those who are among the same nation for which you are fighting. There are many sympathizers towards their own nation or people who live in America and all parts of the world.”
Right.
And when we send in an infiltrator let’s make sure it is a blonde-haired blue-eyed caucasian with a bad accent when he speaks Arabic.
Today is the birthday of the United States Marine Corps and I took a stroll through the national cemetery at Quantico this morning.
The headstones often have a symbol for the dead heroe’s religious affiliation and a number of the were Muslims, Daddio.
Would you be in favor of digging them up?
burqa Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 6:26 pm
Daddio?
Southern Girl Lib Reply:
November 9th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
Willy,
I don’t know anyone except your pal Michelle Malkin who thinks internment of the Japanese was a good thing. As much as I admire FDR, that part of his legacy makes me cringe. Since you think that was ok, is McCarthy one of your heroes? I heard there are approx. 20,000 Muslims in our military. Do you want them all kicked out?
burqa Reply:
November 9th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
He doesn’t want us to have any native speakers of the various languages like Arabic or Pashto so we can decypher intercepted communications.
He also doesn’t want us to be able to infiltrate their networks.
And he wants to further alienate those sitting on the fence, which multiplies the numbers of the enemy.
Not a recipe for victory……………….
jasperjava Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
That is honestly the first time I’ve come across anyone who seriously defended the internment of the Japanese, which is universally condemned as probably the worst decision FDR ever made.
Except Michelle Malkin, of course, but she’s a raving maniac.
November 9th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
“FDR rounded up Japanese who were living here during WWII…”
Thanks for trolling.
What FDR didn’t do during WW2 is round up all the people of Japanese ancestry from the Hawaiian islands, which, at the time, amounted to about one-third of the population. And during the war there were ZERO cases of sabotage. And, in fact, your kind of racist attitude contributed to the “success” of the Imperial Japanese Navy attack of December 7, 1941.
And of course we all remember about the 442nd, one of the most decorated units of the war, which was composed of Japanese-Americans.
November 9th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
“While Christianity is a religion of peace…”
And which “christian” sect in the US is preaching peace? When did that news bulletin come out? And what specifically are they suggesting? That we should stop fighting wars? That we should get rid of guns? That we should care for the sick and the homeless and engage in random acts of charity?
November 9th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
It is time, I (Crackerjack) suggest, “to stop the practice of allowing Christians to enter hospitals. The reason is simple: the more devout (and fundamentalist) a Christian is, the more of a threat he is to doctors and nurses. … And the Tiller killing is not the first violent incident involving a Christian fundamentalist taking out a woman’s healthcare provider.
Of course, most U.S. Christians don’t shoot up their fellow countrymen. Fine. As soon as Christians give us a foolproof way to identify their fundamentalists from their moderates, we’ll go back to allowing them back into the hospitals. You tell us who the ones are that we have to worry about, prove you’re right, and Christians can once again use the health clinics, visit a doctor and collect government assistance for health needs. Until that day comes, we simply cannot afford the risk. You invent a fundie-detector that works every time it’s used, and we’ll welcome you back with open arms (and you can get a free swine-flu vaccine to boot).”
Hmmm …maybe the military needs a don’t ask don’t tell policy re: religion.
crackerjack Reply:
November 9th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
I must add that the Gawker has a fantastic article about why we shouldn’t be quick to label the Fort Hood shooting as simply a terrorist act
http://gawker.com/5400614/how-the-ft-hood-shooter-brings-radical-clerics-and-right+wing-nuts-together
I love the first comment there as well.
burqa Reply:
November 9th, 2009 at 6:36 pm
And we have this in today’s Washington Post that connects Hasan with a radical imam:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2009/11/09/DI2009110901244.html
It is too early to rule anything out and we should be cognizant of any bias we may bring with us to the story. The thing to do is relax and not be afraid to admit we do not have the whole story and also to view with skepticism those who claim they do.
Today, Limpbaugh managed to figure out a way to blame it on Obama……
November 9th, 2009 at 5:46 pm
As a Christian, I am deeply offended that Mr. Fischer would suggest that the American military ban those who are of the Muslim faith from serving our country. Islamic extremism is an enemy of democracy not peace loving Muslims. We have millions of Muslims who live in our country who love America, champion individual liberty, and given their lives in service to the USA.
I would call on all moderate, peace loving, Muslims to condemn any and all terrorist acts done in the name of Islam. Ours is a country that respects freedom of religion and there should be no reason why anyone who loves our country and is committed to defending the Constitution and freedom should be denied service in the military.
Glad I left the Republican party. This is one of the many reasons why.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
What Alan calls “bigotry” is not bigotry at all. We are at war; our war is with an ideology that advocates killing United States citizens. The fact that this ideology is contained in, or disguised as a religion, does not make it less our enemy.
No one is born “Muslim”, just as no one is born Christian. It is a choice a person makes, as it is a choice to be a liberal, or a conservative, or to engage in gay behavior, or to pierce your nose with a metal stud. The choice to become Muslim includes adoption of a book (the Koran) that advocates violence and hatred to non-muslims, and exalts a man (Mohammed) that advocated violence and murder against innocents.
It is not so obvious (yet) as the Nazis, but if a person was openly Nazi in the military, they would be excluded. The Nazis were our enemies 60 years ago. We need to pay attention to who our enemies are now – and by “our enemies”, I mean enemies of the United States. They are Muslims. They need to be excluded from our military, and only with great prejudice and caution admitted to any other portion of our society.
Prejudice is not a sin, it is a protective measure, and in this case, is not even really “pre”judice. It is “post” judice. We have seen what these people do. Time to face reality, Alan, to be openly Muslim is to be openly at war with the United States.
libpatriot Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 12:53 am
Markustee: “The choice to become Muslim includes adoption of a book (the Koran) that advocates violence and hatred to non-muslims..”
Not really, Markustee, though like ALL religious books the Koran has been (mis-?)interpreted to justify personal and violent agendas in human history. The Koran’s central themes are that the one true God (Arabic word Allah) is generous and merciful to those that turn to Him, and is always aware of everything that we do.
The main ideas put across in the Koran concerning people who will not hear the message are that giving them warning is sufficient, and to have faith that God will reward the righteous and punish the wicked in the afterlife.
Some sample verses of the Koran on this:
“Your only duty is to give warning. We [God and the heavenly host of angels] have sent you with the Truth to proclaim good news and to warn your people; for there is no nation that has not had a warner. If they disbelieve you, know that those who have gone before them also disbelieved. Their apostles came to them with veritable signs, with scriptures, and with the light-giving Book. But in the end I smote the unbelievers: and how terrible was the way I disowned them!”–The Koran 35:22-26
“Say: ‘My mission is only to give warning. there is no divinity but God, the One who conquers all. He is the Lord of the heavens and the earth and all that lies between them: the Illustrious, the Benignant One.’”–The Koran 38:65,66
“Say: ‘Enjoy your unbelief awhile; but the Fire shall be your home. Can he who passes the night in adoration, standing or on his knees, who dreads the terrors of the life to come and hopes to earn the mercy of his Lord, be compared to the unbeliever? Are the wise and the ignorant equal?’ Truly, none will take heed but men of understanding.
“Say: ‘Fear your Lord, you that serve God and are true believers. Those who do good works in this life shall receive a good reward. God’s earth is vast. Those that endure with fortitude shall be requited without measure.’
“Say: ‘I am bidden to serve God and to worship none besides Him. I am bidden to be the first of those who shall submit to Him.’
“Say: ‘I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the torment of a fateful day.’
“Say: “God I serve, and Him alone I worship. As for yourselves, serve what you will besides Him.’
“Say: ‘They shall lose much, those who will forfeit their souls and all their kinsfolk on the Day of Resurrection. That shall be the ultimate loss. Above them there shall be sheets of fire, and sheets of fire shall be beneath them. By this, God puts fear into His servants’ hearts.’ Fear Me, then, My servants.”
–The Koran 39:8-16
“We gave Moses Our guidance and the Isrealites the Book to inherit: a guide and an admonition to men of understanding. Therefore have patience; God promise is true. Implore forgiveness for your sins, and celebrate the praise of your Lord evening and morning.
“As for those who dispute the revelations of God, with no authority vouchsafed to them, they nurture in their hearts ambitions they shall never attain. Therefore seek refuge in God; it is He that hears all and knows all.”–The Koran 40:53-56
“It is He who ordains life and death. If He decrees a thing, He need only say: ‘Be’, and it is.
“Do you not see how those who dispute the revelations of God turn away from the right path? Those who have denied the Book and the message We sent through Our apostles shall realize the truth hereafter: when, with chains and shackles round their necks, they shall be dragged through scalding water and burnt in the fire of Hell.
“They will be asked” ‘Where are the gods whom you have served besides God?’
“‘They have forsaken us’, they will reply. ‘Indeed, they were nothing, those gods to whom we prayed.’ Thus God confounds the unbelievers.
“And they will be told: ‘That is because on earth you took delight in falsehoods, and led a wanton life. Enter the gates of Hell and stay therein for ever. Evil is the home of the arrogant.’
“Therefore have patience: God’s promise is true. Whether We let you glimpse in some measure the scourge with which We threaten them, or cause you to die before We smite them, to Us they shall all return.”–The Koran 40:69-77
“Good and evil deeds are not alike. Requite evil with good, and he who is your enemy will become your dearest friend. But none will attain this attribute save those who patiently endure; none will attain it save those who are truly fortunate.”–The Koran 41:34-35
“The heavens above well-nigh break apart as the angels give glory to their Lord and beg forgiveness for those on earth. God is the Benignant One, the Merciful.
“As for those that serve other masters besides Him, God Himself is watching them. You are not accountable for what they do.”–The Koran 42:4-6
“Had it been God’s will, He could have made them all of one religion. But God brings whom He will into His mercy: the wrongdoers have none to befriend or help them.
“Have they set up other guardians besides Him? Surely god alone is the Guardian. He resurrects the dead and has power over all things.
“Whatever the subject of your disputes, the final word belongs to God. Such is God, my Lord. In Him I have put my trust, and to Him I turn in repentance.”–The Koran 42:8-10
“Whoever seeks the harvest of the world to come, to him We will give in great abundance; and whoever desires the harvest of this world, a share of it shall be his: but in the hereafter he shall have no share at all.
“Have they idols which in the practice of their faith have made lawful to them what God has not allowed? Had the dicisive word not been pronounced already, their fate would have long ago been sealed. A woeful punishment awaits the wrongdoers.”–The Koran 42:19-21
“To endure with fortitude and to forgive is a duty incumbent on all. He whom God confounds has none to protect him.”–The Koran 42:43
Getting the idea, Markustee? Before you judge a book and its message, YOU NEED TO READ IT FOR YOURSELF FIRST.
libpatriot Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 1:12 am
Markustee: “They are Muslims. They need to be excluded from our military, and only with great prejudice and caution admitted to any other portion of our society.”
Don’t care much for the First Amendment, do you?
markustee Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 5:22 pm
I have it posted on my office wall. It says:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
There is nothing in this amendment that says that the United States military is obligated to have in its forces anyone that espouses violence or hatred to the United States. In fact, there is no “establishment of religion” in the armed forces. The “living constitution” argument of this amendment is that of “separation of church and state”, which has been further prostituted to be “Congress shall prohibit any mention, thought, or influence by religion on the State”.
That has led to many problems in our nation. This nation was founded on Christian principles, and our founders were quite clear that without God, our nation and our freedom were mortally wounded.
I stand by what I say.
Sarah Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
So you stand by falsehoods, then. Our country was founded chiefly by Deists, not Christians. There’s a big difference.
Incidentally, if you DID have your way and Christians ruled the U.S., which denomination should hold sway? And what do you think we should do with Jews?
Just asking.
OldLefty Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
I know, markustee ,
we have to be careful, from 2008:
Hate Groups Are Infiltrating the Military
The report quotes Scott Barfield, a Defense Department investigator, saying, “Recruiters are knowingly allowing neo-Nazis and white supremacists to join the armed forces, and commanders don’t remove them from the military even after we positively identify them as extremists or gang members.”
And:
: White Supremacists In Military Pose Threat To National Security
Victorville Daily Press / June 28, 2008
And From 2009:
Neo Nazis in the military:
Following an investigation of white supremacist groups, a 2008 FBI report declared: “Military experience — ranging from failure at basic training to success in special operations forces — is found throughout the white supremacist extremist movement.” In white supremacist incidents from 2001 to 2008, the FBI identified 203 veterans. Most of them were associated with the National Alliance and the National Socialist Movement, which promote anti-Semitism and the overthrow of the U.S. government, and assorted skinhead groups.
markustee Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
Our country was founded on Christian PRINCIPLES. Many of the founding fathers were indeed Deists, but the principles that they founded this nation on are Judeo-Christian principles.
I am not an advocate for any denomination, personally, I find the actions and the words of most “Christian churches” and the “religious people” in them to be abhorrent. And I hope we apply “love your neighbor as yourself” to the Jews, Muslims, and every other denomination out there. After all, Jewish blood runs in my veins.
Do not confuse a principle with a religion. They are not the same. They have never been the same. They will never be the same.
I do not stand by falsehoods. I stand by common sense and rule of law. Only with great caution and prejudice – by which I mean we need to know that a person in the Muslim religion is not an enemy before we embrace them as a friend – need to be applied. We are at war. We are not children, this world is not Ms. Prisses’ Kindergarden.
OldLefty Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
We have never been at war with those who attacked us.
We have always supported radical Islam because it is vehemently anti communist.
Sarah Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
Hmmm. And yet you seem interested in turning our country into “Ms. Prisses’ Kindergarten,” thumping a Bible and wailing about Christian PRINCIPLES which you seem to pick and choose as to your liking, or what you would deem egotistically as “common sense.”
Since you “find the actions and the words of most ‘Christian churches’ and the ‘religious people’ in them to be abhorrent” it’s surprising that you seem to champion the introduction of religious tests in our publicly-funded institutions, and that you would encourage looking upon all Muslims as foes before they pass some sort of test as a “friend.”
Interesting.
markustee Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 5:56 pm
Did I thump on a Bible? Did I wail? Sarah, you make no sense. Did you read what I said, or did you fill in the blanks with the glaze over your own eyes? Are you saying that our military is a “publicly-funded institution”?
It is a military organization, filled with guns, bullets, grenades, knives, people who kill with bare hands, and who shoot at bad guys. It’s not your high school cafeteria, dear child.
Your responses are belittling (so is mine, now.) I won’t respond to you any further. Try the Daily Kos.
Sarah Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
Ah, now we’re getting to it. It’s a-okay for YOU to condescend to anyone else on here, but like most Republicans, you can’t take what you dish out.
It’s regrettable you fail to realize, “dear child,” that the military is publicly funded with our very own, hard-earned tax dollars, even if they are overly-glorified for…how did you put it? Killing people with bare hands and shooting at bad guys (well, let’s hope they’re the bad guys, anyway).
Our laws — secular laws — are often based on principles followed in ALL religions. Therefore, it behooves America, which is not a theocracy, to prohibit prejudice against, or advocacy for, any religion.
burqa Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
Yup.
It’s right there in the Constitution, “no religious tests” for those holding public office.
Watch out, Sarah, he’s about to do some more cutting and pasting….
markustee Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
This is a very good reply. Thank you for this information, I did not have it before.
In the things that I have read, the Koran admonishes as follows:
Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. – Sura 2:98
On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. – Sura 2:161
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. – 2:191
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God’s entirely. – Sura 2:193 and 8:39
Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. – 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.
If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. – 3:157-8
You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. – Surah 3:169-71
Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. – Surah 4:74
Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. – 4:76
But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. – 4:89
Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. – 5:14
O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. – 5:54
Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme – 8:39
O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. – 8:65
It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. – 8:67
When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. – 9:5
Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. – 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.
Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. – 9:41
O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey’s end. – 9:73
Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. – 9:111
Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers….
As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. – 10:4-15
When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. – 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.
Those who are slain in the way of Allah – he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. – 47:5
Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. – 48:25
So, you see, I have done a bit of reading myself.
It is as if we are speaking of two different religions. Get the idea? I did read it myself.
burqa Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
Be honest, Mark.
You did not read the Koran and the haddiths and jot down notes.
You cut and pasted.
Though you claim to have done all this reading, what you have failed to do is apply common sense in how Islam is actually practiced by real live people all over the world.
There are over 1.3 billion of them who do not just cut and paste, but who memorize large portions, if not the entire Koran. They incorporate it into their daily life (and pleae, don’t tell us you tried to do the same).
When you look at how those 1.3 billion people who know the Koran better than you and who actually apply it in their daily lives, there is a massive difference between what they do and what you are trying to say Islam is about.
My advice is to get to know Muslims and find out why they are so famous for being generous, humble and hospitable.
markustee Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
I am being honest. I have not read the Koran, except small portions. I am not a scholar of the Koran or the haddiths or any other of that religious nonsense. I am talking about the actions of Muslim terrorists, the justification that they have given, and the fact that we are at war with terrorist governments and groups that are almost exclusively Muslim.
My quotations were not intended to be part of a religious debate. I can do that with the Bible, but don’t need to – no Christian terrorists are trying to destroy our nation or kill our people. Don’t try to confuse the issue.
I am not saying – nor have I ever said – that terrorism and violence is what the Muslim religion is about. I am saying that we are at war, our enemies can be identified as having this common trait, so before we embrace people with this common trait, we need to apply common sense. We put our hand on the burner, it was hot, we got burned. So, before we embrace people that are of that persuasion, we need to apply CAUTION and PREJUDICE – we need to check them out to make sure they are not our enemies.
If they are peaceful, patriotic Americans, then by all means, they should be allowed to serve with honor! I did!
Have you seen the recent information on this killer in Texas? If you have, then you might understand what I am saying.
Sarah Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
After thinking about it, I guess I can understand your suspicious sensibilities when it comes to Muslims, Markustee. Because of the Oklahoma City bombing and the attempted martyrdom of Randy Weaver on Ruby Ridge, I tend to feel the same way about a Republican Party that portrays Obama incorrectly and facetiously as a messiah.
Following your logic, I believe we should cast out all radically-conservative Christians in the military, to boot. Hell, maybe sense would prevail then.
OldLefty Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
” no Christian terrorists are trying to destroy our nation or kill our people”.
………….
Timothy McViegh did, and slave owners, just to name 2.
I pointed out before the reports of neo Nazis infiltrating the military to get weapons and explosives experience.
Have you read the report:
Neo Nazis in the military:
Following an investigation of white supremacist groups, a 2008 FBI report declared: “Military experience — ranging from failure at basic training to success in special operations forces — is found throughout the white supremacist extremist movement.”
Or:
Fort Carson, Colorado, 14 soldiers allegedly committed or were charged with murder between 2005 and 2008 -
OR:
Earlier this year, at Camp Liberty in Iraq, an army sergeant walked into a combat stress center and opened fire, killing five fellow soldiers
OR:
4 Wives Slain In 6 Weeks At Fort Bragg
jasperjava Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 6:24 pm
This list of Koranic verses tells us nothing. I could easily compile an even longer list of bloodthirsty Biblical quotes that could inspire Judeo-Christians to slaughter infidels.
Lib Patriot Reply:
November 11th, 2009 at 10:49 pm
Markustee: “This is a very good reply. Thank you for this information, I did not have it before.”
Thank you, and you’re welcome.
(Yeah I’ve read the Qu’ran in its entirety, and the Bible as well. There are many people in the world that know them better than I, I’m sure. But I’ve read them.)
—————
“Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. – Sura 2:98″
This doesn’t order Muslims to kill all non-believers.
—————
“On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. – Sura 2:161″
Nor does this.
—————
“Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. – 2:191″
You’re getting warmer here, Markustee, but this quote is taken out of context, referring as it does to self-defense. Here is the context:
“Fight for the sake of God those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. God does not love the aggressors.
“Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage. But do not fight them within the precincts of the Holy Mosque unless they attack you there; if they attack you put them to the sword. Thus shall the unbelievers be rewarded: but if they mend their ways, know that God is forgiving and merciful.
“Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God’s religion reigns supreme. But if they mend their ways, fight none except the evil-doers.”
–The Koran, surah 2["The Cow"]:190-193
—————
“Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God’s entirely. – Sura 2:193 and 8:39″
I’ve already addressed the context of this first part, and that context is fighting in self-defense.
The second part, from 8:39? I concede you have a point here, Markustee, as this concerns an offensive war against the affluent, idol-worshipping Arabs who forcibly blocked Mohammed’s people from worshipping at the Sacred Mosque (see 8:33-34). I also concede that surah (chapter) 8, entitled, “The Spoils”, is probably the most violent chapter in the Koran.
—————
“Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. – 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.”
Okay. But this doesn’t say it is a Muslim’s duty to kill all Jews and Christians. Fighting is not necessarily in the context of mortal battle. This verse is sandwiched between a verse about almsgiving and a verse about the sacred month, so it’s hard to get further meaning of this verse from its Koranic context.
—————
“If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. – 3:157-8″
The context, Markustee: “Believers, do not follow the example of the infidels, who say of their brothers when they meet death abroad or in battle: ‘Has they stayed with us they would not have died, nor would they have been killed.’ God will cause them to regret their words. It is God who ordains life and death. He has knowledge of all your actions.
“If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than the riches they amass. If you should die or be slain, before Him you shall all be gathered.
“It was thanks to God’s mercy that you dealt so leniently with them. Had you been cruel or hard-hearted, they would surely have dserted you. Therefore pardon them and implore God to forgive them. take cousel with themin the conduct of affairs; and when you are resolved, put your trust in God. God loves those that are trustful.”
–The Koran, surah 3 (entitled, “the ‘Imrans”):156-159
In context, the verse you quoted does not sound so aggressive or bloodthirsty.
—————
“You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. – Surah 3:169-71″
This is intended as a comfort for Muslims, but does not command Muslims to slay all Jews and Christians.
—————
“Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. – Surah 4:74″
“Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. – 4:76″
These verses refer to fighting in the defense of helpless people in Mecca who were persecuted by the strong and affluent idol-worshipping Arabs there, as shown by the verse in between these two:
“And how should you not fight for the cause of God, and for the helpless old men, women, and children who say: ‘Deliver us, Lord, from this city of wrongdoers; send forth to us a guardian from Your presence; send to us from Your presence one that will help us?’”
–The Qu’ran 4:75
—————
“But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. – 4:89″
All right, Markustee, I’ll grant you that this IS a rather violent prescription for treatment of people who have deserted the Muslim cause during a time of war between Muslims and their enemies.
—————
“Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. – 5:14″
This is the Qu’ranic explanation for divisions and fighting among Christians, explained as punishment for forgetting what they were enjoined to do through Jesus (5:13,14)
Exactly WHAT they failed to remember isn’t explained here, however.
—————
“O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. – 5:54″
Actually, this is at 5:51. Anyway, this still doesn’t say, “Slay them all!” Consider, Mrkustee, that this is at a time when Mohammed wanted to see the Islamic movement growing through new converts, rather than shrinking due to defections.
—————
“Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme – 8:39″
Yes, the Koran is stern against fighting idol-worshippers, but less so about fighting Jews and Christians, except in self-defense. And this passage refers to fighting the oppressive idolators of Mecca who were blocking Muslims from worshipping at the Sacred Mosque.
—————
“O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. – 8:65″
Again, surah 8 (”The Spoils”) is probably the most violent chapter in the Qu’ran. It concerns early history of Muslims being persecuted by idol-worshipping Arabs (and the Jewish tribes of al-Nadir, Qurayzah, and Khaybar), and mustering up courage to fight back in self-defense.
But, Markustee, please don’t overlook these verses that shortly precede:
“If they incline to peace, make peace with them, and put your trust in God. He hears all and knows all. Should they seek to deceive you, God is all-sufficient for you. He has made you strong with His help and rallied the faithful round you, making their hearts one. If you had given away all the riches of the earth, you could not have so united them: but God has united them. He is mighty and wise. prophet, God is your strength, and the faithful who follow you.”
–The Koran, 8:62-64
—————
“It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. – 8:67″
My translation, by N. J. Dawood, states it a bit differently, and here’s the greater context:
“A prophet may not take captives until he has fought and triumphed in his land. You seek the chance gain of this world, but God desires for you the world to come. He is mighty and wise. Had there not been a previous sanction from God, you would have been sternly punished for what you have taken. Enjoy therefor the good and lawful things which you have gained in war, and fear God. God is forgiving and merciful
“Prophet, say to those you have taken captive: ‘If God finds goodness in your hearts, He will give you that which is better than what is taken from you, and He will forgive you. God is forgiving and merciful.’”
–The Qu’ran 8:67-70
—————
“When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. – 9:5″
Markustee, the second half of this 9:5 verse says:
“If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful.”
—————
“Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. – 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.”
Okay, this COULD be interpreted as requiring Holy War against Jews and Christians, I agree.
—————
“Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. – 9:41″
This also, I agree, could be used as a call to Holy War against Jews, Christians, idolators, and other non-believers. (Interestingly, surah 9, entitled “Repentance”, is the only chapter in the Koran which doesn’t begin with “In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful”. Some translators have held that it is really the continuation of surah 8, “The Spoils”.)
Good points for these last two verse samples, Markustee.
—————
“O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey’s end. – 9:73″
Likewise, you make a good case here as well, Markustee.
—————
“Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. – 9:111″
Markustee, this refers not only to Muslims, but also Jews and Christians, as illuminated by the next verse:
“Such is the true promise which He has made them in the Torah, the Gospel, and the Koran. And who is more true to his pledge than God? Rejoice then in the bargain you have made. That is the supreme triumph.”–The Qu’ran 9:112
—————
“Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers….”
A declaration of war, to be sure, but against the idolators of Medina, not against Jews and Christians.
—————
“As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. – 10:4-15″
In the Koran, surah 10 (entitled, “Jonah”), verses 4 through 15, this passage you have here cannot be found. However, consider verses 96-99 from the Jonah chapter: “Those for whom the word of your Lord shall be fulfilled will not have faith, even if they be given every sign, until they face the woeful scourge. Were it otherwise, every nation, had it believed, would have profited from its faith. But it was so only with Jonah’s people [the people of Nineveh, Assyria that God sent Jonah to preach for their repentance]. When they believed, We spared them the penalty of disgrace in this life and gave them comfort for a while. Had your Lord pleased, all the people of the earth would have believed in Him, one and all. Would you then force people to have faith?”
This does NOT sound like endorsing conversion by threat.
—————
“When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. – 47:4
“(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.”
“Those who are slain in the way of Allah – he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. – 47:5″
Striking of the heads of an opponent in which you are enjoined in battle is considered a more merciful death then mortally wounding with multiple stabs, wouldn’t you think so?
Here the Koran is recommending euthanasia rather than torture.
As for the captives, 47:4 continues: “then grant them [the captives] their freedom or take ransom from them, until War shall lay down her burdens.”
Here the Koran is recommending mercy.
As for 47:5, here the Koran is giving comfort.
—————
“Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. – 48:25″
The Qu’ran, surah 48 (entitled, “Victory”), verse 25, says no such thing. It says: “Those were the unbelievers who debarred you from the Sacred Mosque and prevented your offerings from reaching their destination. But for the fear that you might have trampled underfoot believing men and women unknown to you and thus incurred unwitting guilt on their account, God would have commanded you to fight it out with them; but He ordained it thus that He might bring whom He will into His mercy. Had the faithful stood apart from them, We would have sternly punished the unbelievers.”
Some similarities in meaning, but not exactly the same in meaning.
—————
“So, you see, I have done a bit of reading myself…I did read it myself.”
I’m willing to accept that you have at that, Markustee, and in the verses from surahs 8 and 9, you made some good points, as well!
But please consider the contexts in some of the other cases, and that the Qu’ran may not be a book wholly devoted to violence, as some allege.
After all, if one only used Bible quotes from the Holy War sections of Deuteronomy and Joshua, the instructions of Samuel to Saul as to how to treat the Amalekites (1 Samuel 15:3), Jesus saying that “I come as a sword”, Paul’s talking about putting on armor in Ephesians, or talking about having “fought the good fight” in 2 Timothy, one could twist things to justify atrocities and terrorism against non-Christians or differently-believing Christians. This wouldn’t make the Bible a wholly violent book, however.
At the very least, Markustee, I hope you will reconsider (at least privately), this statement:
“Time to face reality, Alan, to be openly Muslim is to be openly at war with the United States.”
It’s not a good idea to see the situation in such absolutist terms, Markustee, though I agree with you of the need for some caution in the cause of national security.
Lib Patriot Reply:
November 11th, 2009 at 11:12 pm
Markustee: “If they are peaceful, patriotic Americans, then by all means, they should be allowed to serve with honor! I did!”
This statement is greatly to your credit, Markustee!
And I withdraw my accusation against you concerning the First Amendment. My apologies!
LibPatriot
burqa Reply:
November 11th, 2009 at 11:18 pm
Lib, that was a nice long post, but some of markus’ Muslim pals could have told him the same thing…..
Lib Patriot Reply:
November 11th, 2009 at 11:39 pm
And there’s never any guarantee someone will listen, Burqa. But, if any poster comes along with similar charges, I can now cut-and-paste from this, rather than having to hand-type it in. I used my science-based information on global warming to re-post in this way to respond to John Galt, for instance (my original posts on that matter were typed in on the July 25, 2009 FFAF thread).
burqa Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
“Getting the idea, Markustee? Before you judge a book and its message, YOU NEED TO READ IT FOR YOURSELF FIRST.”
Why should he do that when he’s got Glenn Beck to do it for him?
The Bible also says “There is no God.”
Yeah, one of the Psalms. I want to say 34, but I forget. Oh yeah, the full verse is, “The fool in his heart says there is no God,” but why not be like Markustee and lift the part I like from the context and cast aside the rest?
Lib Patriot Reply:
November 12th, 2009 at 12:33 am
It is in the beginning of Psalms 53:1.
libpatriot Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 12:59 am
Markustee: “Prejudice is not a sin, it is a protective measure..”
No, it’s PREJUDICE.
markustee Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 5:32 pm
Prejudice, if I may, is a word that means one thing and has become so politically incorrect as to negate its true meaning. It means to judge beforehand – or pre – judice.
It is a very good thing to do. Because of prejudice, you do not put your hand on a red hot burner. Because of prejudice, you do not try to kiss a rattlesnake. Because of prejudice, most people will not get into a confined space with a wild tiger. We judge before we actually know that these things will probably hurt us.
When we pre judge a person because of the color of their skin, then it is a terrible misapplication. Skin color does not imply character. However, even Martin Luther King advocated prejudice, on account of character… “when a man is judged not by the color of his skin, but the content of his character”.
If a man is a member of a radical Islam sect, or when he communes with people that are of a community that advocates murder of American citizens, then we would be wise to be prejudiced against them. It is not their place of worship, it is the content of their character that is in doubt. It is a protective measure, ensuring our survival.
Take off your politically correct glasses, and THINK. You have a brain, use it.
Sarah Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
Wow, the conservative buzz-word “politically correct” in the same post as the tired “red-hot burner” analogy, with points for alluding to Latin roots. What intellect!
Anyway, if we’re throwing all Muslims into the radically-conservative Muslim prejudice, then Michelle Bachmann must be an abortion-doctor killer and should be removed from office.
burqa Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 5:46 pm
Mark, one day you yourself are going to realize that all this cutting and pasting is no substitute for actually thinking and doing independent research and you will follow your own advice, which is cut and pasted from your source who makes it look as if they did the research themselves….
markustee Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 6:03 pm
Burqa – if you can lower your nose far enough, can you tell me your point? Was it to simply dismiss by snobbery, or did you have something to respond? How do you dismiss “slay them where ever ye find them…”?
Your responses are one of a person that has all the answers, and feels the need only to dismiss other as less than yourself to “win”. So, OK, you win. By far – I cannot compete with such logic as “it’s like shooting fish in a barrel” Such wisdom, such astute and profound pronouncements! Surely wisdom will die with you, and mankind will be destitute of knowledge when you pass away! “One day you yourself are going to realize…” – oh, I feel like such a child in the presence of one with such lofty and wonderful understanding!
I think my replies to you have stopped, too.
burqa Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
“Burqa – if you can lower your nose far enough, can you tell me your point? Was it to simply dismiss by snobbery, or did you have something to respond? How do you dismiss “slay them where ever ye find them…”?”
My point is just what I said – you are cutting and pasting and not doing the critical thinking you urge others to do.
The way I dismiss “slay them…etc” is by taking it in context with a far greater sample from not just the Koran and the haddiths, but from real life experience from Muslims I know and from real life observation of over 1.3 billion Muslims who know Islam better than you and who practice it and do not go out slaying Christians or anyone else wherever they find them.
Did you know Jesus said “Hang all the prophets”?
Sarah Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
Boy, Markustee, you sure seem to hate it when we talk to YOU this way. It’s unfortunate that you’re taking your ball and going home, when really, we’re just playing your game according to the rules you’re using.
Kettle, you’re black.
libpatriot Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 1:05 am
Markustee: “and in this case, is not even really ‘pre’judice. It is ‘post’ judice.”
You’re just playing with words, here.
It’s still prejudice.
————-
“Time to face reality, Alan, to be openly Muslim is to be openly at war with the United States.”
Hooey. (Thought you deserved a short answer for a change, lol.)
burqa Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 6:03 pm
Looks to me it’s either a kid or someone trying to be “provacative.”
markustee Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
I’m 51, Burqa. I am a professional engineer, I served six years honorably in the Navy, I was on board the USS Texas when we sent helicopters from the Nimitz that crashed in the desert. I have been through 11 presidents. I own a business and make a very good living. I have two grandchildren.
And you are an idiot.
Sarah Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 6:37 pm
Jesus said not to call people idiots.
But then, as a professional engineer who’s served in the military, who is anyone to tell you how to live your life?
November 9th, 2009 at 10:05 pm
I need to address one other thing, the insane argument that Christians should be excluded from society on account of a few that have murdered – like the man that murdered the baby-murderer Tiller. He did not obey Christian principles, teachings, ideals, commandments – nothing. He did not act according to the commandments or teachings of Christ, but against them. Christ said to love your enemies, Mohammed said to kill them. Christ said to give them a cup of cold water if they are thirsty, Mohammed said to behead them if they disagree with you. Christ said to forgive and to allow all judgement to be left to God, who judges righteously and gives mercy to all who come to Him, Mohammed said to show no mercy to anyone that resists the attempt to force them into submission to this new god “Allah” – a bloodthirsty entity if he even exists.
These comparisons are heady, and they are loud, but to accuse Christians of violence in the name of Christ is insane. We are not comparing the actions of some to the actions of others, we are comparing the teaching of Jesus Christ to the teachings of Mohammed. We are comparing adherents who are personally flawed on one system to adherents that are personally flawed of another. The personal flaw in Christians results in violence. The personal flaw in Muslims results in peace. If – and that’s a big “if” – there are millions of “peace loving Muslims” then they are not Muslims, they are something else. They need to identify themselves as something else. They do not follow the way of Allah, they follow the way of Christ. They need to recognize what they are, because if they call themselves Muslim and actually follow the way of Mohammed, they are murderous killers. Mohammed was.
TDro319 Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Hmmm. And tell me Markustee? What about the crusades? You know, that’s when the christians ruthlessly killed the blasphemers and the non-believers?
There are millions of “peace loving christians” then, by your standards, they are not christians, they are something else. They need to identify themselves as something else. They do not follow the way of Christ, they follow the way of Satan. They need to recognize what they are, because if they call themselves Christian and actually follow the way of Satan, they are murderous killers.
Judging by your above post, I concluded you’re not an “expert” on the teachings of the Quran. If you ask me, you have a lot of nerve condemning a whole group of people because of your sheer ignorance of their religion.
Sarah Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
I believe the KKK also claims to champion a Protestant messiah in their mission, as well.
Let’s not forget what the Crusaders also did to the Orthodox Church which had controlled Constantinople before the Fourth Crusade. The Crusaders basically removed a Christian hedge against Islam by raping, looting, and pillaging their fellow Christians, and also managed to help solidify a foundation for Islamic hatred of Christianity.
burqa Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 5:35 pm
Sorry, Mark, but again you are just plain wrong.
In war after war practiced by Christians, you will find their leaders claiming God is on their side.
You will find them claiming to have prayed and only after consulting God did they go to war, secure they had the blessing of the Almighty.
You will find religious “justification” given to the Crusades and there is the Catholic ideology of what constitues a “just war.”
If you can take a break from the mindless cutting and pasting and actually read, you will find that faith was a central part of the Nazi ideology.
You will also find it in the ideology of the KKK.
Read up sometime on Christian Identity or the Confederate Hammerskins or any number of other such groups.
You will find that Christian terrorist groups like the Protestant Red Hand Defenders or the IRA have chaplains blessing their organizations….
jasperjava Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 6:32 pm
Nazi soldiers went into battle with their dogtags stamped “Gott Mit Uns”.
And the Bible is full of atrocities and massacres committed by the “faithful” and kindly judged by the Scriptures. Was it really necessary to slaughter all the men, women, children, and livestock after the walls of Jericho fell? The Bible actually says that those who tried to save some of the people and animals were punished by God.
OldLefty Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
EVERYBODY can quote scriptures from ANYTHING that promote violence.
burqa Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
I swear, with this Markustee, it’s like shooting fish in a barrel. I feel almost guilty…..
markustee Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
What tedious replies! If you want to demonize christianity, all you have to do is look at the church. If you want to demonize humanism (which is what you are advocating), all you have to do is look at Stalin. If you want to demonize communism, look at Pol Pot. If you want to demonize anything, you just point out those examples of the human condition.
This is what I was saying earlier in another post, “the heart of man is desperately wicked above all things, who can know it?”
You can find murderous people in any group, in any history, in any part of the world. And most of them will claim that whatever higher power they subscribe to is backing them.
I tire of this. If you cannot make a reasonable argument for what you think, then I don’t care to converse. You are not only not making a reasonable argument, you haven’t even said what you think.
Sarah Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 6:32 pm
Touchy, Markustee. And sad. Sad that you would define as “unreasonable” any thought or idea that doesn’t resemble your own.
I think you “tire of this” because we’re probably the only ones in your sphere who actually require that you defend, reasonably, the so-called “Christian principles” you claim to adopt. I suspect you’re not used to having your opinions questioned. It’s really too bad. Groupthink is why this country is in the mess it’s in.
jasperjava Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 6:46 pm
Good points, Sarah.
jasperjava Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
Stalin the humanist. That’s a good one.
“You are not only not making a reasonable argument, you haven’t even said what you think.”
That doesn’t even make sense.
November 9th, 2009 at 10:16 pm
It is said that every psichiatrist needs a “shrink.” This young man evidently is no different. The other part of the discussion is the fear of going to war. Many Americans have that fear, but since we went to Iraq, most have tried to do something at home or abroad to be recognized as heroes. We are so quick to call each other heroes since this silly war. Unlike Gen. Patton, we need to acknowledge those who don’t like war and try to help them, regardless of race, religion, or beliefs.
November 10th, 2009 at 12:31 am
The Crusades were a barbaric and horribly shameful chapter of the christian church history. Along with the murder of thousands of anabaptists in Lake Geneva, Salem witch-hunts, the KKK, and a lot of other murderous, dastardly things that people have done in the name of Jesus Christ, when following men and popes and kings. If you want to church bash, I can outdo you – I studied it for six years in seminary. It is absolutely horrible what the establishment of the church has done. At one time, you could purchase from the Pope permission to rape and murder a young innocent girl. By purchasing this “indulgence”, you were forgiven by the church before you did the act.
I am not in any way lifting up or justifying the establishment of the christian church! My personal faith is just that – personal. I follow no man. I am talking about Christian principles, not church doctrine. The principles I am talking about are based on the teachings of Jesus Christ, no other. And He never endorsed any of that evil.
Sarah Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 6:24 pm
Christ also endorsed loving one’s enemies, turning the other cheek, and abandoning earthly riches, but perhaps you’re picking and choosing among Christian principles.
blissfulconservative Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 6:32 pm
Maybe you should also read ecclesiastes 3:8 since you want to point the finger at folks for “picking and choosing?”
burqa Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 6:24 pm
Jesus said “hang all the prophets.”
I can say that by taking it out of context, which is what you are doing with your cut-and-paste jobs and those claims of doing the research which ring hollow.
The fact is, Christianity has been twisted to justify a lot of killing and so has Islam and so have many other faiths.
Take off the blinders, do some research and enough with the cutting and pasting.
Try getting to know some Muslims. You will be amazed at how generous they are because of their faith.
Try usin some common sense and figuring out that 1.3 billion people not going around cutting throats each day is evidence of something that has eluded you thus far, and that is that magnifying the acts of a few thousand over the acts of 1.3 billion is not logical, no matter what Glenn Beck says….
markustee Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
I will remember that profound logic, next time I see an Al-Jezeera video showing some American heads being cut off. If it is your head, then I will be comforted knowing that you believe it is better for you to loose your head because a few radicals, and not look with suspicion on the whole community. I am sure that it was only a few that were shouting “Death to America!” and calling the US the Great Satan. I saw only a few cities and streets full of that on TV – and of course, that was probably Fox News. But I know that you really do love the Muslims and want to embrace them unconditionally. After all, 1.3 billion of them are just really, really nice people.
I know some Muslims. Some are my friends. And they don’t understand how Americans can be so naive, to be too stupid to CHECK. And they can be generous, they can be surly, they can be kind, they can be irritable – they are just people. They are no different in that than anyone else. But the ones I know that are my friends – they think that radical Muslims should be shot on sight for denigrating their religion. And, they think that the US Military should CHECK.
And they are conservatives. Imagine!
OldLefty Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
Markustee said,
“I will remember that profound logic, next time I see an Al-Jezeera video showing some American heads being cut off. “
……………….
And everytime they see the carnage in Iraq, or scenes from abu Ghraib they feel EXACTLY like you do.
You know the phrase, the Great Satan came about in Iran when we overthrew the democratically elected Mossadegh and installed the Shah and his brutal SAVAK because Mossadegh was going to nationalize the oil and the Brits were not going to have it.
When we were supporting the Muslim Brotherhood, because Nasser was going to nationalize the Suez canal, arming Saddam and the religious wackos in Afganistan, they felt Exactly like you do.
What makes people join these groups may the same reasons people shoot police or people at the holocaust museum.
None of this excuses anything, but we have to stop creating these monsters, and punishing the civilians when the monsters get out of control.
burqa Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
“I will remember that profound logic, next time I see an Al-Jezeera video showing some American heads being cut off.”
I doubt it.
That is because you do not understand logic.
Otherwise you would not be committing one of the first logical fallacies they teach which is arguing from the particular to the general.
In this case, you are letting the actions of a few determine the way you judge 1.3 billion people.
So far, you have no explanation as to why those 1.3 billion people, who don’t cut-and-paste Glenn Beck quotes allegedly from the Koran, are not out killing non-Muslims.
What you have yet to grasp is a small number have taken things out of the context the 1.3 billion all see, and that handful of terrorists are about as Muslim as Christian Identity is Christian.
You have the lives of 1.3 billion people bearing testimony to one thing,and the lives of a few thousand telling you something else. Then you claim to be able to discern “logic.”
jasperjava Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
This is true. I’ve known many Muslims, mostly Lebanese and Palestinian, and they are the type of people who would give you the shirt off their backs if you needed it. They are the friendliest, most hospitable people you are ever likely to meet.
If I were in the military, I would have no hesitation whatsoever to have people like this watch my back. To say that they can’t serve in the military is just absurd, and undermines the fight against radical Islam.
burqa Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
Indeed.
I learned a long time ago to be careful in a Muslim home because if you express an admiration for something they will like as not insist you take it, regardless of how valuable it is.
Oh man, and those feasts they serve up never seem to end!
Hey Jasper, you think Markus really has Muslim friends?
November 10th, 2009 at 6:17 pm