Why Are We Left-Wingers Now “Nazis” And Not “Commies”?
November 9th, 2009, 6:20 PM EST
It makes no sense, as Paul Krugman notes. Krugman, like yours truly, is being called a “dirty Nazi scumbag” much more these days than a “commie” or a “pinko.”
What’s going on? It really doesn’t fit, as far as I can tell — and bear in mind the long-running love affair of the National Review with Francisco Franco. You’d really think critics of Comrade President Obama would prefer the Soviet comparison.
So is it that given the way Communism fell, not with a bang but with a whimper, it just doesn’t seem menacing enough? Is it the fact that Communism has just sort of faded from consciousness, while war movies keep the image of the evil sneering Nazi alive?
What gives?
This all started with the healthcare problem, which was being compared (disturbingly) to Hitler choosing who should live and who should die in his Reich.
Pundits like Beck started parroting this crap and evenually started leaving off the Socialist tag and starting using “Facist” and “Hitler”.
What they’re too dumb to realize is that Hitler would have hated socialism, and that Facism is on the extreme-conservative side of the political fence, while Socialism is past Liberalism and before Communism on the left side.
But try explaining that to some of these people and watch them spew more nonsense that these people on the TV tell them to.
November 9th, 2009 at 6:45 pm
Liberals are being called “Nazis” because:
* we are anti-union like the Nazis were
no, wait
* because we fight the socialists in the streets, like the Nazis,
no, wait
* because we stand for “traditional values” like Kinder, Kirche, Kuche – children, church and kitchen for women, like the Nazis,
no, wait
* because we’re big on capital punishment, like the Nazis,
no, wait
* because we persecute gays, like the Nazis,
no, wait
* because we are suspicious of immigrants and minorities, like the Nazis,
no, wait
* because we oppose feminist organizations, like the Nazis,
no, wait
* because we are against contraception and abortion, like the Nazis
no, wait
Rocky the Liberal Rottweiler Reply:
November 9th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
Hey, wait a minute. You’re talking about…… rEPUBLIKKKANS!!!!!!
burqa Reply:
November 9th, 2009 at 7:41 pm
Not really.
There is still a wide gulf between Republicans and the Nazis, but people should have arguments to defend against this nonsense.
To be serious, in my view terms like “Nazis” and “Holocaust” should be used only for those events because plopping them on other things that are not really the same will rob those words of their real impact.
When I was a kid, the word “cool” really meant something, but no more. This is what happens when we overuse certain words. The shock in the short term is not worth the long-term degraation of the real meaning of those words.
I grew up with someone who was a Holocaust survivor. He was the only one of his family to not go to the ovens. Let’s be grown-ups about things this serious and this impotant and be more respectful to those who were actual victims of the Nazis and the Holocaust…
Rocky the Liberal Rottweiler Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 10:46 am
“Let’s be grown-ups about things…”
People ARE being grown-ups about things. This is how grown-ups behave. They yell and scream and stamp their feet and express every kind of idiocy and do everything in their power to defeat their opponents, even if it means lying, cheating, breaking the law, violating religious law, destroying property, and, yes, committing murder.
Welcome to the human race.
jasperjava Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
I grew up with someone who was a Holocaust survivor. He was the only one of his family to not go to the ovens. Let’s be grown-ups about things this serious and this impotant and be more respectful to those who were actual victims of the Nazis and the Holocaust…
I remember the moment I became a liberal: As a child, watching a documentary on the Holocaust. I vividly remember seeing that famous picture of a child in a “poor boy” cap, hands in the air, being led away by an armed Nazi in the Warsaw Ghetto.
I remember thinking, how could anyone be so cruel?
As I grew older, I saw that similar attitudes atill exist – racists who refuse to accept racial equality. Right-wingers who would rather see people suffer than pay a penny more in taxes. Extreme nationalists who think their country is better than anyone else’s and don’t need to conform to international law. Sadists who support the torture of defenseless detainees. Warmongers who exult to see brown-skinned civilians roasted to death.
Modern American Right-wingers are not as bad as Nazis, but their attitudes, their ignorance, their certainty, their extremism, make them vulnerable to fascist demagoguery.
The best way to honor the memory of those who died at the hands of the Nazis is to work to prevent fascism from ever taking hold again. We need to denounce right-wing extremism in all its forms.
jasperjava Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
This is the picture that turned me into a liberal:
November 9th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Because commies and pinkos has been trivialized by their adherents so much its the equivalent of a five year old calling someone a poopbutt. However the drive of the JDL to “never forget” backed by all the money Spielberg and Madoff could garner has made Nazis the closest thing to Satanic evil percieved of by the postmodern relativistic left. In technical terms there is no political faction that resembles the National Socialists, and in particular the unique form of German totalitarianism based on extreme racism is not reproducible particularly in a heterogenous society like the US. By a stretch you could say that some of the corporate soft money and government kickbacks lends towards a Mussolini style of fascisti, but death camps is just ridiculous.
burqa Reply:
November 9th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
I agree, though I don’t think the evils of communism have been trivialized that much. We have a long ways to go before we can actually make any comparisons to either the Nazis, the Holocaust, communism or the East Asia Co-Prosperiy Sphere, for that matter.
I think our society is too different for any of that to actually arise; though with 300 million people there will be some kooks out there….
November 9th, 2009 at 7:49 pm
This is great! Although being considered a “Nazi” by the right wingers is nice (after all, nothing screams “Nazism” as such liberal values as preferring peace to war and brotherhood to racism), I prefer someting a bit more elaborate like say, “Muslin-Athiest pinko Marxist”. Maybe that’ll be next week’s fashionable phrase.
flap Reply:
November 9th, 2009 at 10:39 pm
What is a Muslin…?
jasperjava Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 10:18 am
There was a homemade sign at a tea party somewhere that said “Obama is a Muslin”.
Isn’t that a kind of fabric?
TDro319 Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
I saw that homemade sign at the tea party and I thought, “wouldn’t it be great to be referred to as a kind of fabric?”
The tea baggers already used the term “Muslim/Athiest” a few months ago, so I thought I try something new; Muslin/Athiest. Has a nice ring to it, in an Emily Litella sort of way.
burqa Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
What is it I have said about a dozen times in the last week?
Conservatives, when faced with an issue they can’t handle, do one of two things:
1) Change the subject
2) Play shoot-the-messenger
In this case, the subject is Nazis and so flap has to go and try to talk about Muslims….
November 9th, 2009 at 10:07 pm
Communism hasn’t fallen, Alan. It is too big of an idea for that.
Communism is the logical outcome of a tender heart that rejects the notion that God is outside of himself, and is good, and that the man (by comparison) is evil. I am not saying that all men do all evil all the time. It is just that if man rejects God, then man becomes god. (”God” here is defined as the “supreme being”). The man that rejects God as being outside himself, has to accept that he is, in fact, the supreme being in his own world.
A tender heart then seeks to control his world in such a way as to meet “fairness” and “kindness” and, in general, liberality.
God is neither liberal nor conservative.
When a conservative meets God, he becomes more “liberal”. He finds that he desires to do more charitable acts, but that God Himself prepares those acts, and that they actually mean something. They accomplish something. Being conservative in the first place, he finds it easier to not do liberal things, but that God compels him to.
When a liberal meets God, he finds that all those liberal acts he was doing were not accomplishing anything, and that by subjecting himself to the control of the Living God, he does other acts, acts that he would not have thought to do before. They accomplish something after he subjects himself to God.
Both learn that man cannot save himself, and that the foolish acts of liberals and conservatives alike – are foolish.
I used to watch you and Hannity get after it. I got to a point where Hannity became to me abrasive and I did not want to hear him anymore – his views were closer to mine, but he was conservative without kindness. You were argumentative and weak, but I think in your heart, you are basically a kind person. So, now I hear you on BOR or whenever you show up, but I basically don’t listen to Hannity anymore.
I hope that you find wisdom one day to guide that kindness.
burqa Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
Communism looks good on paper, Mark, but when it is applied by humans and human nature is involved, it becomes the most ugly thing to afflict this planet to date.
Communism is responsible, in about 70 years of the 20th century, of getting more people killed than all wars in history combined.
The death total is over 100 million.
Sometime get yourself a copy of “The Black Book of Communism,” compiled by several editors. This rather long book documents it all and gives details of how everywhere communism has been installed, mass murder usualyy followed, as well as famine so bad people resorted to cannibalism in a number of cases….
markustee Reply:
November 11th, 2009 at 2:30 am
Oh, I sooo agree. Communism is a horrid thing. So horrid, in fact, that I cannot imagine why the left in this country is pushing so hard to consolidate the government under one central power instead of pushing to decentralize the government and give the power back “to the states, and to the people”. But it is. National healthcare – which has nothing to do with healthcare and everything to do with redistribution of wealth under the sovereign guidance of the national government by regulating insurance – is a prime example.
I am not sure who would be more conservative, Obama, or Gorbechev. I am beginning to think Gorby would be better than Barry Soetoro.
Welcome to the United Soviet Socialist States.
Jonnan Reply:
November 11th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
“Communism is the logical outcome of a tender heart that rejects the notion that God is outside of himself, and is good, and that the man (by comparison) is evil.”
You fail Logic forever.
‘nuf said.
OldLefty Reply:
November 11th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
I don’t get it:
“Communism is the logical outcome of a tender heart that rejects the notion that God is outside of himself, and is good, and that the man (by comparison) is evil.” was said by MARKUSTEE on NOVEMBER 9TH, 2009 AT 10:46 PM,
and
“Oh, I sooo agree. Communism is a horrid thing. So horrid, in fact, that I cannot imagine why the left in this country is pushing so hard to consolidate the government under one central power instead of pushing to decentralize the government and give the power back “to the states, and to the people”. But it is. National healthcare – which has nothing to do with healthcare and everything to do with redistribution of wealth under the sovereign guidance of the national government by regulating insurance – is a prime example.
I am not sure who would be more conservative, Obama, or Gorbechev. I am beginning to think Gorby would be better than Barry Soetoro.
Welcome to the United Soviet Socialist States.” was said by MARKUSTEE on November 11th, 2009 at 2:30 am??
November 9th, 2009 at 10:46 pm
Oh, yes, and you are basically a communist. I don’t say that as a demeaning thing, I mean it kindly, actually (don’t laugh). Marx’s “everyone gives according to their ability, and receives according to their need” is the cry of a misguided, but kindly heart. It – and you – simply don’t take into account that the “heart of man is desperately wicked above all things, who can know it?”
But a Nazi? No. I don’t think so. And I think that if you find wisdom one day, your “communism” will become righteousness. Right now, it is not. I cannot see you ever condoning racial purity (mass murder) or purposely depriving people of their justly earned food, clothing, and shelter. (You simply don’t see the things you advocate as causing that, although they do.)
“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom”.
Lee Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 1:50 am
“Oh, yes, and you are basically a communist.”
This is one of the labels ‘du jour’ that people like Glenn Beck are encouraging their minions to perpetuate when describing Liberals.
It’s quite foolish to do this. There are certainly areas like healthcare where you can argue similarities between the Liberal approach and those used by Communists. But it’s more complicated. Marxism is not interchangeable with Communism nor Socialism. Furthermore, the intersection of Marxism with Liberalism is very limited to certain areas where pursuing capitalism is counter-productive to the objectives in our society.
This is why for sure there are aspects of Marxism in the Liberal approach to healthcare but few ‘Liberals’ want nationalized industry/commerce unless it is a temporary condition that will ultimately best grow the economy and/or prevent it from collapsing.
Even in healthcare, most Liberals I know, only advocate the Marxist approach to payment and don’t want nationalized healthcare providers or drug companies.
The bottom line is that the ‘Communist’ label is just a cheapshot of the Right-wing playbook which plays on peoples fears versus their hopes in pushing its ideas.
It’s sad that they cannot make their case purely on the merits of their arguments and instead have to grossly misrepresent the opposing ideas/position, although in fairness that attribute is not completely unique to the Right.
jasperjava Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 10:06 am
I might add that modern American conservatives are also Marxist. They believe in class struggle as much as any Marxist, except that the capitalist fat cats should win rather than the workers.
markustee Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
You missed the point. The tag “communist” has negative connotations for some, positive connotations for others. It is the essential system that I am talking about, and I am not insulting Alan when I say he is basically a communist. He is, but in his case, I don’t intend a negative connotation. Communism is simply in line with what he espouses.
The rest of your reply is a pretty dry parsing of degrees, from my point of view. Very – boring. The distinction between liberal-socialist-communist-Marxist is a fuzzy line. Especially since the current administration took office – he claims to be a liberal, but he appoints Communist party members to his czar positions. Fuzzy, indeed. I don’t give B. Hussein Obama the same credit I give Alan Colmes – I see no kindness or any other redeeming quality there.
Sarah Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
In one breath, you’re chastising a poster for using “wacko” in a denigrating manner, and in the next, you’re highlighting Obama’s middle name because it’s the same as the last name of the Iraqi dictator that Bush targetted (instead of the REAL perpetrator of 9/11).
How droll.
OldLefty Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
Actually, the distinction between conservative – trickle down-fascist-Friedman Chicago School, unregulated capitalism is a fuzzier line.
The current administration kept many of the Wall Street insiderers and free marketers from the last administrations, and his “czars” are a cut above Bush’s …like his UN czar, and his Iran Contra felons, and his PNACers,
Lee Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
“Communism is simply in line with what he espouses”
No, it’s not! You merely quoted an aspect of Marxism which is significantly different to Communism and extrapolated generally that to mean he is a Communist!
Does he support everyone being equal and a classless society? No! not at all so he is not a Communist, period.
“The rest of your reply is a pretty dry parsing of degrees, from my point of view. Very – boring.”
Sorry it’s not ‘exciting’ to read but it’s just pointing out where and why you are factually incorrect in your assertions.
“he claims to be a liberal, but he appoints Communist party members to his czar positions.”
And there we go.. you have been watching Glenn Beck haven’t you?
(two quotes from Mao Zedong)
‘In time of difficulties, we must not lose sight of our achievements’
‘The differences between friends cannot but reinforce their friendship’
Wow, I like Mao’s rhetoric here.. Therefore according to Glenn Beck and evidently people like yourself? I must therefore be a Communist and apparently favor mass murder, right?
“Fuzzy, indeed.”
No it’s not ‘fuzzy’. If you bother to understand what Communism entails then neither Alan or Pres. Obama is even close to being identified with such an ideology.
November 9th, 2009 at 10:52 pm
OK…so your typical right wing wacko prefers name calling rather then working towards solutions. This surpises you how?
markustee Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 12:15 am
Using a vocabulary that has as it’s central thought the word “wacko” does not make a very convincing argument. One that classes 100 million people in the United States into one category (”typical right wing”) as if all those people have a single thought is not very logical. If it were true, however, it would be very scary – since conservatives outnumber liberals in this nation by about 2 to 1. I think it is a good thing that there really aren’t very many “typical right wing wackos” out there.
Need to work on the persuasive argument a bit.
jasperjava Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 10:00 am
Conservatives don’t outnumber liberals 2 to 1. People who CALL themselves conservative outnumber people who CALL themselves liberal 2 to 1.
It’s about the label. When you ask these “conservatives” what their position is on specific issues, you discover that they are quite liberal. After 30 years of demonization by loud arch-conservatives, a lot of progressive people are uncomfortable with the “liberal” label, but there are more liberals in the United States than you think there are. After all, Barack Obama won the election by a comfortable margin.
There’s no way that there are 100 million conservatives in the United States. That’s an insult to the country. There’s no way that there are so many backward idiots. There just seems to be a lot of right-wingers because they make a lot of noise, and their radio blowhards take up a lot of the airwaves.
markustee Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
Too bad you are unable to reply to a post without using such denigrating language. Conservatives are not “backward idiots”, and conservative talk-show hosts are not “radio blowhards”. They are just people with a different point of view. Neither are liberals “libtards” or “liberal nutcases” or “idiots”. We can accomplish a great deal by conversation and exchange of ideas (something Alan does well, and I respect his point of view because of it), but something that bloggers seem to have an extremely hard time doing.
On both sides, by the way. I find most bloggers need to heed the advice, “better to shut your mouth and let people think you are an idiot, than to open it and remove all doubt”. However, I have observed that liberal bloggers on the far left (Daily Kos and such) tend to have much more profanity in what they say, and much less substance, than those on the far right (Hannity, for example.) I am hoping that this is a more – moderate – liberal site. We shall see.
I will concede your point about calling themselves liberals or conservatives. But the reason Obama won by a very slim margin is not because there are masses of liberal thinking folks out there. His opponent, McCain, was far, far too liberal for most conservatives, and many of them simply didn’t vote, or voted for Obama in order to stimulate the conservative backlash (which will come, most likely, in one year).
To get “100 million” I simply divided 300 million people in the US by 3 – which is a bit small. Actually, 40% of polled Americans consider themselves conservative, versus 20% that consider themselves liberal. 40% are swaying in the breeze on the issue. So, really, I should have said 120 million. Sorry for the imprecision.
Rocky the Liberal Rottweiler Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 10:42 am
“One that classes 100 million people in the United States into one category (”typical right wing”) as if all those people have a single thought…”
Who the hell gave conservatives credit for having a thought? That’s absurd and outrageous!
markustee Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
I think, Rocky, that your Rottweiler has his face in his paw for shame that you use his breed to describe yourself. A political viewpoint does not give a person the ability to think, nor does it take that ability away.
However, comments like yours are indicative of intellectual ability.
luv2lift48 Reply:
November 11th, 2009 at 12:18 am
Er..If you outnumber “us”, then how did you lose the election by such a huge landslide? did you get the polling date wrong? or?? what??
November 9th, 2009 at 11:16 pm
I like Pinko myself….
burqa Reply:
November 11th, 2009 at 12:23 am
I like pink…………. no wait, you guys are talking about something else.
Sorry.
November 10th, 2009 at 12:29 am
I don’t know if I should wear my red star, my Iron Cross, or Hammer/Sickle pin. Where’s Joe McCarthy when you need him??
TDro319 Reply:
November 10th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
LOL!
November 10th, 2009 at 2:22 am
“Your mother wears Army boots” was a mean insult back when I was a kid. Kids today would say “Yeah, she does. So what?”
November 10th, 2009 at 4:04 pm